Minnesota Sports Forum

Good posts here on this. These media specials, "a nation divided" and such are not helping either. They're pumping up these looting scenes.

We're losing objective thinkers to solve big problems. We retreat to our corners when these things happen.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Guys I really need some support on this question I'm about to ask. Let me first say that it is entirely possible I'm completely missing something here. But this is absolutely driving me crazy. It has to do with the Drew Brees drama of the past couple days. The question is this: Why can't we get behind a fight to end systemic racism / social injustice AND at the same time respect the flag of this great country? Why do those two things have to be mutually exclusive? I was really surprised how hard people came after Brees, and maybe even more so when he apologized. Anybody else having trouble with this?

This whole affair with Brees is a perfect example of the existing culture of outrage we live in. We get so caught up in what someone says or tweets or did 25+ years ago that it distracts us from good-faith debates and problem solving.

Having said that, and knowing the times we live in, Brees probably should have read the room a bit better....

khans2k5 wrote:They went after Brees hard because he is yet another white person setting the rules of engagement for taking on systemic racism and police brutality with his take on kneeling during the national anthem not being an acceptable form of protest. You can't knee during the national anthem to raise awareness. In many states right now you can't peacefully protest without getting tear gassed and shot with rubber bullets. Social media is full of police abuse of power in these situations escalating them and being the aggressors. My brain can't even compute the level of stupidity combined with arrogance we are seeing from cops right now who are under a microscope and still brutalizing unarmed civilians in broad daylight. That's a level of unchecked power that just doesn't give a fuck because of the limited if not zero repercussions they are gonna see which is why we are in this mess in the first place. Actions have consequences in this world unless you are a cop right now where you have a significantly high chance of the system ruling in your favor enabling you to pretty much do whatever the fuck you want. We all seem to agree rioting and looting is not the answer either.

So what is acceptable to do that doesn't lead to you getting criticized and your voice diminished (rioting, looting and kneeling during the national anthem) or getting brutalized by the police right now (peaceful protesting)? There hasn't been an "acceptable" way to challenge the system that doesn't result in one of those two outcomes right now so they are getting backed into a corner and given no options. The last thing that should be happening is white millionaires and media publicly setting the rules of engagement for what is acceptable while the cops are on the other side of that bridge brutalizing the people doing it the "right" way and facing zero consequences for doing so. Law and Order is following their own set of rules right now while we pay for them to do so.

While there have certainly been bad actors, I'd be careful with over-generalizing. I've seen videos of cops showing grace and appreciation for peaceful protesters, communicating with them in very friendly and kind ways. I have also seen others over-react and get disciplined for it, so there have been consequences. We also only see things through the lens of the video that is posted. Was there something that precipitated the incident that is unseen or unheard? Was the person that posted the video seeking out abusive cops while ignoring abusive protesters?

Having said that, I do think reform is needed in many police departments. One of the first places to start is the union and labor protections that were agreed to with local governments. If we want to talk about systemic problems in our inner cities, public unions has to be part of the conversation along with criminal justice reforms, training, etc.

BizarroJerry wrote:Good posts here on this. These media specials, "a nation divided" and such are not helping either. They're pumping up these looting scenes.

We're losing objective thinkers to solve big problems. We retreat to our corners when these things happen.

Yup!! 100%. Controversy and outrage gets clicks and views and re-tweets. So the Fox news videos will focus on looters and rogue protesters while the MSNBC ones will focus on abusive cops. Both will give only small air-time to the other abuses because it won't play well with the narrative their loyal audience prefers.

Q12543 wrote:

BizarroJerry wrote:Good posts here on this. These media specials, "a nation divided" and such are not helping either. They're pumping up these looting scenes.

We're losing objective thinkers to solve big problems. We retreat to our corners when these things happen.

Yup!! 100%. Controversy and outrage gets clicks and views and re-tweets. So the Fox news videos will focus on looters and rogue protesters while the MSNBC ones will focus on abusive cops. Both will give only small air-time to the other abuses because it won't play well with the narrative their loyal audience prefers.

And that trickles down to the populace -- whether a message board poster, hipster guy, old guy waving his fist from his lawn or the lady next to you in the grocery store -- going to their corners. You can go anywhere... and the liberals are showing only police violence... and the conservatives are showing only looting.

I remember seeing a not a couple years ago about there being 10% people on the alt right... and about 10% on the alt left dominating all the conversations even though about 80% of us don't agree with either side. That's how I looked at it.

But what happens when you normalize those 10% in the margins as much as we have for as long as we have?

We might be reaching that place now. It's good for business. And it's easier for people to simply join a tribe. I don't know how we swing back to something more civil -- especially not in a time when simply being a "conservative/Republican" makes you a "terrible racist person" to tens of millions of people instantly without any discourse with you. Likewise, how being gay or even black makes you a lesser person to so many people.

Civility and pragmatism is a sign of weakness. Sadly.

But it will win in the end... but just how much water will we need to take on first before we get it?

thedoper wrote:The majority of people here like stats when applied to basketball, the truth is in the numbers. Justice is supposed to be blind, we see that image outside of most courthouses in the western world. Justice is disproportionately applied to people of color. Its in the numbers plain and simple. People of color are killed at a much greater rate by police. It is a perversion of justice that follows racial lines, and a product of a racist society, all good intentions aside.

There is an old saying, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics". Stats can tell whatever story you want based upon which stats you choose to present.

Yes black men are killed by cops in numbers greater than their percentage of the population. But they're also killed less when viewed by percentage of crime committed by their race. Now before I'm called racist for pointing out that statistic remember the vast majority of violent crime is committed intraracially so the majority of their victims are also black.

None of that alleviates the need for law enforcement to be better, a lot better! George Floyd should still be alive today as should many other people of all races.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

BizarroJerry wrote:Good posts here on this. These media specials, "a nation divided" and such are not helping either. They're pumping up these looting scenes.

We're losing objective thinkers to solve big problems. We retreat to our corners when these things happen.

Yup!! 100%. Controversy and outrage gets clicks and views and re-tweets. So the Fox news videos will focus on looters and rogue protesters while the MSNBC ones will focus on abusive cops. Both will give only small air-time to the other abuses because it won't play well with the narrative their loyal audience prefers.

And that trickles down to the populace -- whether a message board poster, hipster guy, old guy waving his fist from his lawn or the lady next to you in the grocery store -- going to their corners. You can go anywhere... and the liberals are showing only police violence... and the conservatives are showing only looting.

I remember seeing a not a couple years ago about there being 10% people on the alt right... and about 10% on the alt left dominating all the conversations even though about 80% of us don't agree with either side. That's how I looked at it.

But what happens when you normalize those 10% in the margins as much as we have for as long as we have?

We might be reaching that place now. It's good for business. And it's easier for people to simply join a tribe. I don't know how we swing back to something more civil -- especially not in a time when simply being a "conservative/Republican" makes you a "terrible racist person" to tens of millions of people instantly without any discourse with you. Likewise, how being gay or even black makes you a lesser person to so many people.

Civility and pragmatism is a sign of weakness. Sadly.

But it will win in the end... but just how much water will we need to take on first before we get it?

Exactly right. Twitter fights and cable news are making us hate each other but I won't let them get to me. Yes, most of us are (i hope) in that wide middle range of normal, compassionate civilians.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

BizarroJerry wrote:Good posts here on this. These media specials, "a nation divided" and such are not helping either. They're pumping up these looting scenes.

We're losing objective thinkers to solve big problems. We retreat to our corners when these things happen.

Yup!! 100%. Controversy and outrage gets clicks and views and re-tweets. So the Fox news videos will focus on looters and rogue protesters while the MSNBC ones will focus on abusive cops. Both will give only small air-time to the other abuses because it won't play well with the narrative their loyal audience prefers.

And that trickles down to the populace -- whether a message board poster, hipster guy, old guy waving his fist from his lawn or the lady next to you in the grocery store -- going to their corners. You can go anywhere... and the liberals are showing only police violence... and the conservatives are showing only looting.

I remember seeing a not a couple years ago about there being 10% people on the alt right... and about 10% on the alt left dominating all the conversations even though about 80% of us don't agree with either side. That's how I looked at it.

But what happens when you normalize those 10% in the margins as much as we have for as long as we have?

We might be reaching that place now. It's good for business. And it's easier for people to simply join a tribe. I don't know how we swing back to something more civil -- especially not in a time when simply being a "conservative/Republican" makes you a "terrible racist person" to tens of millions of people instantly without any discourse with you. Likewise, how being gay or even black makes you a lesser person to so many people.

Civility and pragmatism is a sign of weakness. Sadly.

But it will win in the end... but just how much water will we need to take on first before we get it?

Maybe if we knew why this happened we could get through it. IMO one of the things that drives this type of behavior is all of us have had experiences that made us at the very least wary of something like that again. How many folks here are skeptical of the Wolves because of what has happened in the past? Anyone here have a bad experience with religion? Abuse? A mechanic shop that really screwed you over? A restaurant you will absolutely never go back to? People tend to have some sort of trauma or at the very least negative experience that makes them react poorly the next time. Maybe the reason someone is reacting negatively isn't massive but maybe it's a bunch of little things that built up over time.

Meanwhile IMHO in America until MAYBE the past 10-20 years you were mostly just supposed to move on with your life When bad things happened. If you are religious pray and all will be well. These approaches don't tend to work. People have shit they have experienced and some have never truly processed it. It's been just a few years now that abuse is now more out in the open. It's seemed that society has changed when it comes to that. To me one of the things that feeds into people getting upset and jumping to a quick conclusion is a thing or many things in the past that have not been dealt with at all. In America It's more do if yourself be independent Etc etc. I'm very independent myself I like to try and do things on my own. It's great...but sometimes I'd be better off asking for help. I also have parts of my life I'm really co-dependent too. People need space to be able to really talk about their thoughts feeling and opinions. That's not encouraged in so many spheres of our lives in my experience. Not everyone needs to go see a psychologist or counselor but it should probably be more utilized. That's not a cure all either. Finding the right mental health professional (sometimes people select a therapist that feeds into the problem instead of helps) can be difficult. There should be more education on these types of things how to talk to each other. That's Admittedly a long game.

Next you have the fact that nearly everyone Wants to be a part of a community. Why are we in this forum posting about one of the worst franchises in pro sports? Why are we posting in this thread right now? People want to be part of something. I tend to wonder where the line is between someone being a part of an organization or community and when it becomes an actual cult. Watching various cult documentaries (my wife likes this sort of thing) It seems like at times the line is pretty thin. So you have pyramid schemes, political parties, recreational sports leagues, churches, volunteer organizations...the list goes on of ways people can be a part of something. In times like these (not to mention COVID conditions) I think that desire can ramp up even more. Find a side be a part of something. That doesn't mean it's bad to be a part of an organization. We all know that being a part of a great organization, company, or some type of community (even if it's just a few people) can be wonderful and very gratifying. At some people when people are hurting they will need some sort of community to help them get back going. It can be pretty difficult to do it on our own.

It's basically been said in a few different ways already in this thread and I've said this on the forum multiple times but critical thinking isn't really taught in the country. There isn't a skill that's fostered and/or people don't really know how to search for and interpret information. A few years ago in a previous job I was working with some HS students helping them work towards transition from HS to college or whatever their path was. When asked to do a simple web search most didn't even know how to find a college or university website. There are a lot of systems that need some work...

I don't know if this has been posted here, but it turns out two of the other officers present were rookies, one on only his third shift.

I have been thinking quite a bit about how do other officers not intervene in these situations and this is what I've come up with. What I'm about to say isn't intended to dismiss anybody's responsibility in this situation or others like it, it's only to share a perspective I haven't seen talked about.

As an aviation enthusiast, I'm fond of watching those documentaries about the various crashes and their causes. One that is common when the crash was due to pilot error is a situation where the co-pilot is aware something is off, but they defer to the Captain either in fear of being rebuked or because they believe that being more experienced they're aware and handing the situation correctly and speaking out would show the co-pilot was unaware. The FAA instituted new training to ensure that the Captians know they have to take into consideration input from their co-pilots and instilling in the co-pilot the responsibility to speak up in any situation. It is very common in the military, law enforcement, or any profession where a strict chain of command exits for subordinates to be unlikely to correct a superior.

Now put yourself in the position of those three other officers, Chauvin was the senior officer on sight and two of those with him are still rookies. The idea of correcting the person in charge is going to be very difficult, you're a rookie and you're supposed to believe the senior officers that are training you are acting correctly. I can feel some empathy for those two rookies, especially a guy working only his third shift, that is going to be a very difficult position to be put in, especially if Chauvin is a hard ass type. That's not to say they don't have a responsibility to the public to do so, but only to try to understand what they were thinking.

I'm not sure if the type of training the FAA added for pilots is a part of law enforcement training, if not it should be if it is it needs to be taught more strongly. Law enforcement needs to be trained that they're not simply enforcing the law outward, from themselves to the public, but also inward, holding each other accountable. Asshole or not I'm sure Chauvin wishes one of those three had the balls to call him out before his ego put him in this situation.

Just something that's been running through my mind recently, curious to see what others think.

TheSP wrote:

thedoper wrote:The majority of people here like stats when applied to basketball, the truth is in the numbers. Justice is supposed to be blind, we see that image outside of most courthouses in the western world. Justice is disproportionately applied to people of color. Its in the numbers plain and simple. People of color are killed at a much greater rate by police. It is a perversion of justice that follows racial lines, and a product of a racist society, all good intentions aside.

There is an old saying, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics". Stats can tell whatever story you want based upon which stats you choose to present.

Yes black men are killed by cops in numbers greater than their percentage of the population. But they're also killed less when viewed by percentage of crime committed by their race. Now before I'm called racist for pointing out that statistic remember the vast majority of violent crime is committed intraracially so the majority of their victims are also black.

None of that alleviates the need for law enforcement to be better, a lot better! George Floyd should still be alive today as should many other people of all races.

.

Yes crime stats (including violent crime) follow along racial lines too. That stat only reinforces a that racism is embedded in our society beyond policing.