Milwaukee Bucks boycott game 5

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Hey, just making sure we're held to the same standard. Accountability isn't lost on this site. How fair would it be for one to criticize sourcing and then not provide such themselves? That would be foolishness and I know thedoper is above such a thing.

And you can disagree with my conclusion, but at least it's one of my own and based from the information that's available to me as of 27 August 2020. I'm open to retracting my conclusion and replacing it with another should the investigation provide an explanation of a different occurrence. That much hasn't happened yet. Meanwhile, your conclusion is based off of...? What exactly is your take? That a black man was murdered in broad daylight because of his skin color? Sounds like there might be more to the story there.

[thedoper]

Hey, just making sure we're held to the same standard. Accountability isn't lost on this site. How fair would it be for one to criticize sourcing and then not provide such themselves? That would be foolishness and I know thedoper is above such a thing.

And you can disagree with my conclusion, but at least it's one of my own and based from the information that's available to me as of 27 August 2020. I'm open to retracting my conclusion and replacing it with another should the investigation provide an explanation of a different occurrence. That much hasn't happened yet. Meanwhile, your conclusion is based off of...? What exactly is your take? That a black man was murdered in broad daylight because of his skin color? Sounds like there might be more to the story there.

I just did cite a source right when you asked for it. Do the same. There is likely more to the story. But if you are going to tell everyone what that more is it would be nice to know where you got that information because it wasnt from the Wisconsin DOJ briefing that you loosely cited. I am just reading the DOJ transcript and not finding the elaborate story that you told so just wanted to know how you came to that conclusion? Its not that complicated, you somehow know everything that went on there with the situation. Lots of claims. I just want to know how you're generating such confidence in these claims?

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Cam does systemic racism exist in some way in the USA?

No. Systemic racism does not exist in America. There is no system in place to hinder any specific race in this country. If there was, we would not see the many black entrepreneurs, business owners, surgeons, educators, attorneys, political officials, professional athletes, etc. Systemic racism would have suppressed them from such success. We would not see blacks wrongfully charged with crimes walk free after court cases. There would not be black valedictorians and honor grads in almost every graduating class. Systemic racism also implies that another race has an advantage in life and that's another issue I find to be folly. I'm sure many will disagree with me on this too.

then you'll never understand what minorities have to go through because your sentiment couldn't be farther away from what black people feel. It absolutely exists and most of the people who feel this way can point to an incident where it's been that way for them or someone they know. Minorities have made great advancements, but there's still a long way to go in this country and a lot of scars in this country that are very visible. It's not something to flippantly dismiss. Might as well say Black people are full of shit and let's see how that works out.

But you do realize there are many blacks (and other minorities) that dismiss the idea of systemic racism and its existence in America today. Should we ignore them since they don't fit the narrative? You may disagree as is your right, but telling me that I'm being dismissive is hypocritical as you're doing the same to the likes of many without even realizing it.

There's a term for black people like that. It's the black person who thinks that because they avoided these familiar pitfalls that in hindsight they didn't exist. It's the black person who feels that when they reach a level of privilege in life that it gives them the right to be snobby to everyone else whose shoes that person was in. It's the person who thinks racism ended when they got their lucky break. It's the person who craves the nourishment of white acceptance and believes in every negative connotation that comes with the melanin he or she has. It's the person far removed from anyone who looks like him or her and would rather keep it that way. It's the person who thinks that by disagreeing with other black people that it doesn't make their opinion different, but rather it makes them "special." From Sage Steele to Jason Whitlock to Stacey Dash to even Jonathan Isaac to a lesser degree, they exist, and they can be lumped into the same group with little objection from them. I know, because those are the ones who get more dislike than even the most racist white person.

Now I have no idea where you're from and how you were raised. That can shape a person's world view drastically (which is why I'm trying to be very respectful towards you. That and we've been here for years.) I'll just say it's always be easy for you to dismiss the idea of systemic racism because luckily for you, you'll never know firsthand what that feels like.

Ahh, so because these people disagree with the existence of systemic racism that must mean that they are privileged or in some way better than their fellow men and women. Respectfully, do you understand how judgmental that is? The people you listed specifically have been called everything from a "coon" to an "Uncle Tom" and likely much worse by people of their own kind. Wouldn't it just be much easier to give in to the victim mentality and shout that it's the white man's fault for all of their problems in life? Seems to me that that would be the much easier approach for them and they'd be liked by more I'm sure. And if systemic racism was real, which it's not, wouldn't these same people have been caught in its crosshairs? How is it possible that they've managed to beat a system that is inherently working against them? That's not what the Democrats tell me is supposed to happen.

[mrhockey89]

I agree with Camden almost completely on his takes here, as well as his take on James Wiseman. :) I won't go as far to interpret what had possession of a knife, though if I were guessing and the witness accounts are what Cam says they were, combined with the fact that he was leaning over the driver's side floor when he was shot, seems to suggest he likely had it in his hands at the time. Nevertheless, I am not sure it matters. Even if he didn't have it on his body, then that would suggest he was reaching for it when he was bending down in the car. Is that a better or safer situation for the cops? It is pretty easy to look back from a birds eye view and determine whether someone was or wasn't a threat to the officers. Here's what I do know, if you're going first person as the officer, you know he overpowered you earlier, you know the taser didn't work, and you had guns drawn and asked him to stop and he ignored the commands, and you likely assume he's reaching in a car for something that is unknown. Best case in this scenario is probably the knife, worst case a gun. It would take me a 5 second youtube search to look up a video in which the cops didn't use that same force and were turned around and shot. In fact, I've watched one of such videos today. Easy to say the cops should be able to take him down, but not all cops are the size of LeBron James, and cops are not immune from fear of being shot themselves. Everyone on this board knows that guy would never have been shot had he complied in the first place. People can say he didn't deserve being shot, but that's easy to say from your keyboard. Try a ride-along in a police car in a major city and see if you come to the same conclusion.

I'd like to suggest everyone watch the following short video showing a high profile civil rights protestor being offered use of force scenarios. SPOILER: 1st scenario he gets killed, 2nd scenario he shoots an unarmed man, 3rd scenario he apprehends a knife wielding civilian. The activist COMPLETELY changed his point of view after going through the exercise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g for anyone that's interested.

monsterpile, I know you didn't ask me, and I've done a lot of thinking and research on the idea of systematic racism. My conclusion, like Cam's, is that it doesn't exist. I believe there are racist people, I believe there are cops that are hardened and power hungry, and I believe everyone has a different starting point, but all of the talking points suggesting systematic racism have a counter-point. This country elected a black President, people are able to change classes from all creeds and backgrounds. Systematic issues that hold people down appear to be more of a classism discussion than racism. That's not to say that there isn't a level of overpolicing that may happen disproportionately to blacks, but I don't think it's a system thing but rather a training and/or personal experience issue. In the past, there have clearly been systematically racist policies, of which have been corrected in the past 50 years. Affirmative action, while well intentioned, ends up giving African Americans an extra 200-250 points on a SAT score, a latino an extra ~175-185 from what a Caucasian would need to score for the same admission consideration, and actually penalizes Asians around 50 points, completely to account for the different backgrounds. If anyone is getting screwed in this scenario it's Asians. A results based leveling of equality is not only inherently unfair (and probably racist) in itself, but also is not helpful for the overall advancement of blacks or latinos. It's giving a man a fish vs teaching a man to fish scenario. A far better and more fair way of addressing the differences would be at the early educational level. Make sure that kids of all races and backgrounds have access to good education, and get community leaders as well as those these kids look up to (LeBron, rappers, etc) to help deliver the message of how important education is. Make it cool, make it accessible, and get it part of the fabric of the culture. THAT is how you will make a real difference. It seems like everyone wants a quick fix to this, and it's not there, it has to be a process. My company is adding an internal hiring quota to make sure they're hiring enough minorities. While I'm all for them doing a review on their hiring practices to make sure they are being fair to applicants of all backgrounds and races, it concerns me that they think a quota is an answer. It's not, it's a virtue signal that may actually keep the company from hiring the best possible employees in worst case scenario, which would have a trickle down effect to our customers. ALWAYS hire the most qualified candidate. Same goes for our elected officials...who cares what race or sex they are? Vote for the best candidate. Not sure why we need to worry about breaking barriers on a schedule rather than naturally in the course of the advancement of society.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

[youtube] https://youtu.be/l1uv7DU8Q2Y[/youtube]

0:44 - "He's got a knife! He's got a knife!" (police)
0:46 - "PUT IT DOWN!" (woman's voice)

[SameOldNudityDrew]

I find it hard to understand how anyone can be more upset at people protesting against police killing black people disproportionately than at the police for actually doing it.

Define disproportionately?

Fair question. You can cut the numbers in various ways, but most of the studies I've seen suggest that police kill black people are around 3 times the rate of whites based on the population.

Here's a study that pegs the number at 2.8.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

In the aftermath of the Floyd killing, research into police statistics in Minnesota suggested police use force against black people at 7 times the rate that they do against whites. This is not just killing but other uses of force.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/06/03/minneapolis-police-are-7-times-more-likely-to-use-force-against-black-people/#2de8cbb61321

Here's a full database of the numbers of fatal police encounters in Minnesota.
https://www.startribune.com/fatal-police-encounters-since-2000/502088871/

There are a lot of different ways to look at it and a lot of other studies out there, but the stats suggest it's pretty clear that police are significantly more likely to use violence against and kill black people than white people.

None of these studies account for crime rate. To use the population of different races would also indicate that all races commit the same amount of crime, and therefore equal amounts of police encounters. It won't take you very long to discover that that is not the case.

Ok, I see you want to be as statistically accurate about this as possible. I agree and think that's something we can build off of.

If you have some reliable research that addresses crime rate statistics based on race, let's look at it. If you did want to measure the use of police force in relation to crime rate statistics based on race, you'd also have to make sure those crime rate statistics take into consideration that predominantly black neighborhoods are policed more heavily, which may inflate those numbers. Some could also point out that unconscious bias leads police officers to pull over black drivers for minor infractions at higher rates than whites. There's research to support this referenced in this article.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/03/us/minneapolis-police-use-of-force.html

The key quotes read:

"Some law enforcement officials have reasoned that since high-crime areas are often disproportionately populated by black residents, it is no surprise that black residents would be subject to more police encounters. (The same studies have also shown that black drivers, when searched, possessed contraband no more often than white drivers.)

The Minneapolis data shows that most use of force happens in areas where more black people live. Although crime rates are higher in those areas, black people are also subject to police force more often than white people in some mostly white and wealthy neighborhoods, though the total number of episodes in those areas is small."

Now, you could counter-argue that black people and black neighborhoods are policed more heavily because that's where the crime is. That seems not to be the case based on the findings above, but what if that doesn't change your mind? Now we're in a chicken-and-egg conundrum. Are the police policing black neighborhoods more because crime rates are higher there, or are the crime rates higher in black neighborhoods because that's where the police are more frequently looking for crime? One way to get out of that Gordian knot would be to look at something like crimes people admit to and then compare it to arrest rates. For example, research suggests that basically the same percentages of white and black people use and sell illegal drugs. As such, you'd expect arrest rates to reflect that, but it's not the case.

https://www.hamiltonproject.org/charts/rates_of_drug_use_and_sales_by_race_rates_of_drug_related_criminal_justice

And actually, some of the studies isolate for possible variance in crime rates statistically. Rather than measuring the police use of force in relation to population generally, they measure it only in relation to people who have encounters with the police, likely meaning they have been suspected of having committed some kind of offense. This is what you're looking for. If we isolate for whether or not someone may be engaged in criminal behavior, then how do the police treat you?

According to this, the number in this study is actually fairly consistent with the disproportionate numbers suggested when you compare the use of police force by the population as a whole. In this case, even isolating for crime through encounters with police, police threaten to use force or actually use force about 2-3 times (200-300%) more often for blacks than whites.
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/punf0211.pdf

And the study mentioned in this article shows disproportionate treatment of black people in traffic stops.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/21/us/activists-wield-search-data-to-challenge-and-change-police-policy.html

So to sum up, I agree it's fair to consider the use of police force not just based on race but on crime. One problem is that crime rates themselves may already reflect police bias, though some might dispute that. The solution is to try to isolate statistically as much as we can for actual criminal behavior or suspected criminal behavior as reflected in police encounters. And the conclusion seems to be basically the same as the one you draw if you measure police force in comparison to the population generally. The police are just more likely to use force or threaten to use force against you if you are black than if you are white even if you isolate for behavior.

[Monster]

Mr Hockey thanks for the reply. So you position is that in 50 years we went from systemic racism to basically everything corrected in that regard? I'd invite you and Cam to consider if that makes logical sense considering how prevalent racism in this country was. Let's remind be reminded of the history of oppression and violence against black peoples for over 300 years. Like I said just think consider it for a moment.

Still let's say it's not systemic but it's individuals here and there and classism is more of the problem. There is still a problem there correct? I'd suggest many that are supportive of BLM would agree that there is a classism issue to be dealt with as well.

Wild wolf did a solid breakdown of the idea that some people made it and so they basically don't think racism exists. Maybe in some way shape or form it didn't for them. Maybe they were blind and never saw it. Maybe they grew up in a way in a community that didn't really effect them in that way. We shouldn't completely ignore their experience. To me the question is if you don't believe systemic racism exists then how do you reach people that feel like it does? What do you say to someone that had multiple times where they were legitimately oppressed? We shouldn't ignore the successes but we shouldn't be ignoring legit victims either. I don't think we should be ignoring people that also simply feel their lives are in danger leaving their house because they think their lives are in danger because of their skin color. That's a large amount of people and a few that I know that share that experience are not people with a victim mentality. They are people who people would say that made it and they still feel that way.

[BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520]]

Did you guys hear Jerry Falwell had a 2nd pool boy? Oops wrong thread....

[AbeVigodaLive]

Did you guys hear Jerry Falwell had a 2nd pool boy? Oops wrong thread....

Not the place, Bizarro.

Go sit in the corner as punishment.

[BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520]]

Did you guys hear Jerry Falwell had a 2nd pool boy? Oops wrong thread....

Not the place, Bizarro.

Go sit in the corner as punishment.

Haha. Trying to lighten the mood here
Everyone is jacked up again.