Would you trade Towns

[kekgeek]

All I know is that if the Wolves can simply land a couple more #1 draft pick/max guys... we're definitely, maybe, possibly going to have a legitimately promising future.

The whole point is a complete lack of direction.

Our organization goes middle on everything.

You do not win that way. In anything.

Unless you're a woman and threesomes are your thing.

Ok. So I see a disconnect there. I guess I thought trading young guys for a top 20ish player and giving a max to Wiggins were actually pretty bold moves.

You see it as a half-measure take? What would a non-middle trade scenario look like back then...

I believe you continue to draft until you're actually halfway relevant before you splurge on a big name like Jimmy.

We literally had the #7 pick and fans thought trading for Jimmy was going to do something...

With a 2nd year coach, who happened to also be the POBO. I believe he signed Gorgui to a reckless contract. Teague too. Gibson. Traded his #5 from the previous year and #7 pick, with another previous lottery pick for his injury ridden man-crush.

If we were fringe playoff or an 8th seed at the time, I'd get it. There was no reason to believe we still wouldn't half-suck.

If you want to non-middle right now then offer Gorgui, Teague, and this year's first to OKC for Chris Paul + change. Test it. If it fails, then offload RoCo next s season, KAT the year after, let Paul and Wiggins expire and embrace the full rebuild again.

We had two number one picks beginning their rookie max contracts. There literally isn't a better time to land a 3rd star with that duo. You have them locked up for 5 years and you get to get them playoff experience ahead of schedule to know what it takes to win in this league. That was literally the time you are supposed to make the move. You have the most flexibility you will have with their fresh max deals over waiting a few years as those deals get even bigger. The Jimmy/veteran plan worked for 1 year. We made the playoffs, Towns and Wiggins got slapped around by a real team and we were supposed to take that into the following year where they continued to improve their play with steady vets around them giving them competent play to work with. Jimmy blew it up before that could happen, but that's exactly what you want to do with two young players you treat as your foundation.

Nobody else is the Warriors with 3 building blocks and the opportunity to add a Durant without losing one of the 3. The Sixers have Embiid and Simmons. The Bucks have Giannis and Middleton. The Celtics have Tatum and Brown. The Nuggets have Jokic and Murray. The Trailblazers have Dame and CJ. The Rockets have Luka and Porzingas. The Rockets had Harden and CP3/now Westbrook. The Jazz have Gobert and Mitchell. You don't get 3 building blocks outside of being the Warriors. You get 2 and some teams are lucky enough to add a 3rd guy to their 2 pieces and we took that chance when we had it. It didn't work out, but that's exactly the move you are supposed to make in this league to keep you team good and your young talent playing good basketball so they maybe, just maybe will stay at the end of these deals. Jimmy Butler is leading the second best team in the East right now. While the West is tougher I would put Jimmy/Wiggins/KAT of this season against any team in the West not located in LA and those LA teams are fragile and could fall apart in any game with an injury opening the door for the rest of the conference.

Jimmy blew it up. That sucks. That doesn't make it the wrong move.

It is called not being stupid.

When you see the writing on the wall that is GSW, LeBron, Houston, etc. You absolutely do not push all your chips in.

Unless you're stupid...

Wiggins wasn't showing a semblance of stardom. KAT was only an offensive player (still is). We add an abrasive coach/POBO who brings in half his old team because he actually can't be a HEAD COACH.

My question when is the time. I have a big suspicion that the Wolves would still not be in the playoffs if we didn't make the trade. So we would be in Kat year 5 and Wiggins year 6 no playoffs and no real looking future. With Lebron, Houston, 76ers, now the clippers all there in front of us.

When is the right time, same problems come on what you are purposing but now our "young" unproven guys like Wiggins, Lavine, Dunn and Lauri are about to be super expensive and less valuable.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

All I know is that if the Wolves can simply land a couple more #1 draft pick/max guys... we're definitely, maybe, possibly going to have a legitimately promising future.

The whole point is a complete lack of direction.

Our organization goes middle on everything.

You do not win that way. In anything.

Unless you're a woman and threesomes are your thing.

Ok. So I see a disconnect there. I guess I thought trading young guys for a top 20ish player and giving a max to Wiggins were actually pretty bold moves.

You see it as a half-measure take? What would a non-middle trade scenario look like back then...

I believe you continue to draft until you're actually halfway relevant before you splurge on a big name like Jimmy.

We literally had the #7 pick and fans thought trading for Jimmy was going to do something...

With a 2nd year coach, who happened to also be the POBO. I believe he signed Gorgui to a reckless contract. Teague too. Gibson. Traded his #5 from the previous year and #7 pick, with another previous lottery pick for his injury ridden man-crush.

If we were fringe playoff or an 8th seed at the time, I'd get it. There was no reason to believe we still wouldn't half-suck.

If you want to non-middle right now then offer Gorgui, Teague, and this year's first to OKC for Chris Paul + change. Test it. If it fails, then offload RoCo next s season, KAT the year after, let Paul and Wiggins expire and embrace the full rebuild again.

We had two number one picks beginning their rookie max contracts. There literally isn't a better time to land a 3rd star with that duo. You have them locked up for 5 years and you get to get them playoff experience ahead of schedule to know what it takes to win in this league. That was literally the time you are supposed to make the move. You have the most flexibility you will have with their fresh max deals over waiting a few years as those deals get even bigger. The Jimmy/veteran plan worked for 1 year. We made the playoffs, Towns and Wiggins got slapped around by a real team and we were supposed to take that into the following year where they continued to improve their play with steady vets around them giving them competent play to work with. Jimmy blew it up before that could happen, but that's exactly what you want to do with two young players you treat as your foundation.

Nobody else is the Warriors with 3 building blocks and the opportunity to add a Durant without losing one of the 3. The Sixers have Embiid and Simmons. The Bucks have Giannis and Middleton. The Celtics have Tatum and Brown. The Nuggets have Jokic and Murray. The Trailblazers have Dame and CJ. The Rockets have Luka and Porzingas. The Rockets had Harden and CP3/now Westbrook. The Jazz have Gobert and Mitchell. You don't get 3 building blocks outside of being the Warriors. You get 2 and some teams are lucky enough to add a 3rd guy to their 2 pieces and we took that chance when we had it. It didn't work out, but that's exactly the move you are supposed to make in this league to keep you team good and your young talent playing good basketball so they maybe, just maybe will stay at the end of these deals. Jimmy Butler is leading the second best team in the East right now. While the West is tougher I would put Jimmy/Wiggins/KAT of this season against any team in the West not located in LA and those LA teams are fragile and could fall apart in any game with an injury opening the door for the rest of the conference.

Jimmy blew it up. That sucks. That doesn't make it the wrong move.

It is called not being stupid.

When you see the writing on the wall that is GSW, LeBron, Houston, etc. You absolutely do not push all your chips in.

Unless you're stupid...

Wiggins wasn't showing a semblance of stardom. KAT was only an offensive player (still is). We add an abrasive coach/POBO who brings in half his old team because he actually can't be a HEAD COACH.

Well just 1 year later the Warriors dynasty is over, Lebron has a second star but his team still has plenty of flaws and the Rockets are a mess in the playoffs pretty much every year and have shown to be beatable if you just wear Harden down. Again right now I'd take Jimmy/Wiggins/KAT over any team in the West outside of LA and while formidable they are far from guaranteed to be making it to the finals. Things change just that fast in this league which is why 5 year plus plans are the dumbest thing to do as a GM because the landscape changes way too quick and you can't adapt if all your contracts are built around long-term plans.

Wiggins was on a max deal so regardless of what he had shown or not he was paid as a building block with the expectation he improve to what he is now and possibly more. Year 1 Thibs barely touched the roster seeing what he had. They sucked. Year 2 he brought multiple legitimate players to the team and we made the playoffs which was THE thing we had to accomplish that season. We did that. Then it was over.

Handing the Warriors the title before every season proved to be wrong so you using that as an argument for why we shouldn't have added an all-nba player to the team makes no sense. Why try when the Warriors have 4 stars right? Yet there seems to be a title banner hanging in Toronto right now and not in the new arena. Handing other teams the title now or saying there is no shot when the league has even more parity than last year is a step in the wrong direction.

[Wolvesfan21]

-Thibs was an idiot

-The Wolves couldn't afford to give Butler a 18 million raise AND try and build a roster around bad contraCTS THIBS HANDED OUT.

-The Wolves were 1 and done in the playoffs, I think.

-Thibs is an idiot

-Did the Wolves win the NBA Championship that I missed?

-Thibs is still an idiot

-You can't say what if Butler stayed, he didn't! What kind of stuff are you smoking?

--The Butler trade failed

-Thibs will always be an idiot.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Within just a few posts... Future went from criticizing the Wolves for staying in the middle... to criticizing them for going all in.

Now I'm even more confused with his take.

The Butler trade alone wasn't about winning a title. Everybody knows that. The only way to a title was if Towns and Wiggins improved exponentially... and the plan was for them to gain playoff experience with Butler to help them get there.

Future is making it seem like it was losing LaVine and Dunn and the swapping the #7 that prevented it... when in reality... maybe it's just Towns and Wiggins aren't as good as they need to be.

[D-Mac [enjin:19736340]]

Within just a few posts... Future went from criticizing the Wolves for staying in the middle... to criticizing them for going all in.

Now I'm even more confused with his take.

The Butler trade alone wasn't about winning a title. Everybody knows that. The only way to a title was if Towns and Wiggins improved exponentially... and the plan was for them to gain playoff experience with Butler to help them get there.

Future is making it seem like it was losing LaVine and Dunn and the swapping the #7 that prevented it... when in reality... maybe it's just Towns and Wiggins aren't as good as they need to be.

Exactly. Id make the trade again for sure knowing what we knew then.

[mjs34]

While I don't have a problem with what the wolves gave up to get Butler, they definitely did it way too soon. I realize those moves don't happen in a vacuum but our team just was not set up to compete. Part of that has to do with the fact Butler wasn't going to be here after that first season. He demanded we redo his contract into a max deal and the only way to accomplish that was to shed significant salary which would result in dumping Gorgui and Wiggins both along with most likely another couple of first round picks to get someone to take them.They literally would've had no way to improve the team at that point.

Thibs screwed this team from a GM standpoint and there's no other way to look at it.

[Lipoli390]

Within just a few posts... Future went from criticizing the Wolves for staying in the middle... to criticizing them for going all in.

Now I'm even more confused with his take.

The Butler trade alone wasn't about winning a title. Everybody knows that. The only way to a title was if Towns and Wiggins improved exponentially... and the plan was for them to gain playoff experience with Butler to help them get there.

Future is making it seem like it was losing LaVine and Dunn and the swapping the #7 that prevented it... when in reality... maybe it's just Towns and Wiggins aren't as good as they need to be.

The problem with the Butler deal was three-fold:

First, it was premature. Good organizations with young talent don't deal for the key veteran until the young guys have already proven themselves through team success. The Celtics didn't bring in Kyrie Irving until they were a 50-win team with Brown, Jason Tatum and Marcus Smart among others. The Sixers didn't pursue Butler until they were already a 50-win team and borderline championship contender with their core young guys - Embiid and Simmons, along with Saric and Covington. Moreover, both Boston and Philly had lots of valuable draft assets remaining even after dealing dealing for Kyrie and Butler.

Second, Butler was the wrong type of veteran to bring in to pair with very young players like KAT and Wiggins at the time. He already had a reputation as a player who didn't blend well with young guys and as a an overall asshole of a teammate.

Third, the age difference was too big to make sense. KAT was still 21 years old when the Wolves acquired the 27-year old Butler. Wiggins was 22.

So don't be confused. I didn't like the Butler deal at the time and in retrospect it was a failure. It was the wrong deal at the wrong time. In the end, the Wolves barely made the playoffs as an 8th seed by winning the last game of the season. They were then promptly eliminated in 5 games. The next season the Wolves sucked as they began the season with Butler in a firestorm of Butler-induced controversy.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Within just a few posts... Future went from criticizing the Wolves for staying in the middle... to criticizing them for going all in.

Now I'm even more confused with his take.

The Butler trade alone wasn't about winning a title. Everybody knows that. The only way to a title was if Towns and Wiggins improved exponentially... and the plan was for them to gain playoff experience with Butler to help them get there.

Future is making it seem like it was losing LaVine and Dunn and the swapping the #7 that prevented it... when in reality... maybe it's just Towns and Wiggins aren't as good as they need to be.

The problem with the Butler deal was three-fold:

First, it was premature. Good organizations with young talent don't deal for the key veteran until the young guys have already proven themselves through team success. The Celtics didn't bring in Kyrie Irving until they were a 50-win team with Brown, Jason Tatum and Marcus Smart among others. The Sixers didn't pursue Butler until they were already a 50-win team and borderline championship contender with their core young guys - Embiid and Simmons, along with Saric and Covington. Moreover, both Boston and Philly had lots of valuable draft assets remaining even after dealing dealing for Kyrie and Butler.

Second, Butler was the wrong type of veteran to bring in to pair with very young players like KAT and Wiggins at the time. He already had a reputation as a player who didn't blend well with young guys and as a an overall asshole of a teammate.

Third, the age difference was too big to make sense. KAT was still 21 years old when the Wolves acquired the 27-year old Butler. Wiggins was 22.

So don't be confused. I didn't like the Butler deal at the time and in retrospect it was a failure. It was the wrong deal at the wrong time. In the end, the Wolves barely made the playoffs as an 8th seed by winning the last game of the season. They were then promptly eliminated in 5 games. The next season the Wolves sucked as they began the season with Butler in a firestorm of Butler-induced controversy.

Sure. I get that take.

I'd argue that Boston added Irving to a 50-win team to win a title. And Philly did the same to a 50-win team to win a title. As I've said repeatedly... that wasn't the goal of the 2018 Timberwolves.

It was 13 years and counting...

The goal wasn't to win a title with Butler. It was to be relevant. The Wolves were relevant for 2/3 of that season, until Butler got hurt. (It's fair to assume he'd get hurt based on his history you and others have documented in the past.)

And as for the 27-year old along with 21 year olds... meh. There aren't many teams comprising only 21 year olds that do much of anything. And to expect the fanbase to wait several more years is not always the best take either.

Personally/obviously, I liked bringing in Butler to take the Wolves to the next level (even if limited) to show the Wolves young stars (and true franchise foundation) what it takes. Then, when Butler moved on in a couple of years (ideally)... the mid-20s versions of Towns and Wiggins would be more seasoned for more legit playoff runs.

It didn't pan out. Thibs was an ass. Butler was even worse... Together they blew everything up almost before it could take shape.

I hated Thibs yelling. I hated his demeanor. I hated how he marginalized the true hope for our future in favor of his personal favorite (Butler). I hated ICE! ICE! I hated how Butler destroyed an entire season out of pettiness. I hated how Thibs enabled it. I hated how it all ended. I hate where the Wolves are today, in part because of the disastrous end to the Butler era.

But I don't hate the premise of that trade. I think it made sense. And I think the fanbase deserved more at the time. It simply didn't pan out.

[thedoper]

From what I can tell of this team now Butler deserved to be an asshole. I was hurt by Butler's behavior but ultimately he was right. We should have given him everything because the franchise and the fans were overrating our young talent. On the timing thing it is never too early to win. We needed someone to show Towns and Wiggins the way, I no longer blame Jimmy because those two couldn't handle it. Clearly the narrative that Jimmy and Thibs were holding back the development of our youth was wrong. Yes Jimmy may be the most extreme of assholes, but in the NBA winning franchises know how to placate their stars. Maybe Thibs was the only one just looking at the Jimmy situation from a pure basketball perspective. As much as I have wanted Wiggins to do well and have been one of his biggest supporters, in hindsight dumping wiggins to give Jimmy a better long term deal was the right pure basketball move. This seemed to be what Jimmy and Thibs wanted but Taylor wouldnt allow. Wiggins could have played for a contract and Jimmy would have been taken care of. I wouldnt have wanted that at the time but i was wrong. Jimmy and Kat was a great idea, this in the long run would have sold more tickets and made us a better franchise. The problem was our delusion at the time and not Jimmy being himself.

[AbeVigodaLive]

From what I can tell of this team now Butler deserved to be an asshole. I was hurt by Butler's behavior but ultimately he was right. We should have given him everything because the franchise and the fans were overrating our young talent. On the timing thing it is never too early to win. We needed someone to show Towns and Wiggins the way, I no longer blame Jimmy because those two couldn't handle it. Clearly the narrative that Jimmy and Thibs were holding back the development of our youth was wrong. Yes Jimmy may be the most extreme of assholes, but in the NBA winning franchises know how to placate their stars. Maybe Thibs was the only one just looking at the Jimmy situation from a pure basketball perspective. As much as I have wanted Wiggins to do well and have been one of his biggest supporters, in hindsight dumping wiggins to give Jimmy a better long term deal was the right pure basketball move. This seemed to be what Jimmy and Thibs wanted but Taylor wouldnt allow. Wiggins could have played for a contract and Jimmy would have been taken care of. I wouldnt have wanted that at the time but i was wrong. Jimmy and Kat was a great idea, this in the long run would have sold more tickets and made us a better franchise. The problem was our delusion at the time and not Jimmy being himself.

Deserved to be an asshole... and deserved to purposely sabotage an entire season for millions of Timberwolves fans?

I think he could have been the asshole without ruining an entire season.