Pups vs Blazers

[Lipoli390]

This excerpt from an article in "The Athletic" shows how Thibodeau screwed up:

The small backcourt of Rose and Teague was predictably porous on defense. Portland scored 74 points in the 25:22 they were paired -- a per-48 minute total of 140 -- and just 39 points in the 22:38 they were separated, which works out to 82.7 points per 48 minutes. It's a major reason why Teague was a game-worst minus-19, followed by Gibson at minus-14, Rose at minus-12 and Wiggins at minus-11. Towns and Saric only got two short stints together, totaling 3:57 in the second quarter and 3:16 in the fourth period, and finished plus-3 in that 7:13. For the game the plus players were Tyus Jones (plus-11), Okogie (plus-7) and Saric (plus-6).

[kekgeek]

Make or miss league we missed some shots down the stretch the blazers missed them. Good game by the Wolves missing a very important player.

Personally I thought Teague actually played a good game. Rose didn't adjust at times when he was attacking but some of that should be credit to the Blazers defenders. One play he should have made was taking that 3 in the corner instead of attacking. I wonder if he flat out forgot he was 2018 Rose and went to Rose from a few years ago when he would have dunked on someone.

Okogie does lots of good stuff but he also takes himself out of plays and fouls sending guys to the line at times when solid D would have been better. That shot fake at the 3 point line is pretty convincing and he can get going quickly. He needs to slow down a bit at times even though that's why he gets into plays to begin with.

Speaking of slowing down...Wiggins has gotten smoother I think taking a bit more time when he attacks and it's been pretty profitable. He still has flaws but good game from him.

Tough calls on Towns early and yet Dieng came in and did some good things. I think Towns ended up bette than his box score. Nurkic was very good in this game for the most part.

Overall it was an entertaining game with some calls that went the wrong way for both teams and mostly evened out. If the Wolves continue to play at least this well (especially with Covington back in the lineup) they are gonna do just fine. This is a fun team that I continue to have more and more faith in.

I'm with you monster. Shit like this happens. We blame thibs for having Taj in there and Taj missed a corner 3. Well Taj is shooting 60% for corner 3s this year while saric is shooting under 20% for the corners this year (I was to lazy to figure out the exact % including his time with the sixers his this year).

Like you said make or miss league. One of our best players this year rose had a bad game but it is hard not to trust him based on how good he has been and how clutch he has been

As fans when things don't work we blame the coach because it's the easy scapegoat and of course the guys on the bench would make every shot. And play Gary payton like defense.

We had 5 good NBA players on the court late and nobody made a play. Lillard made difficult shots late. It sucks but it happens

*we always think things are greener on the other side. When the Jimmy trade fell apart people where pissed that we traded zach and people acted like we were going to be a contender with zach. Well now zach is not effective scorer and is starting a team boycott. When things go bad or don't work out doesn't mean the other option would have been perfect

[kekgeek]

This excerpt from an article in "The Athletic" shows how Thibodeau screwed up:

The small backcourt of Rose and Teague was predictably porous on defense. Portland scored 74 points in the 25:22 they were paired -- a per-48 minute total of 140 -- and just 39 points in the 22:38 they were separated, which works out to 82.7 points per 48 minutes. It's a major reason why Teague was a game-worst minus-19, followed by Gibson at minus-14, Rose at minus-12 and Wiggins at minus-11. Towns and Saric only got two short stints together, totaling 3:57 in the second quarter and 3:16 in the fourth period, and finished plus-3 in that 7:13. For the game the plus players were Tyus Jones (plus-11), Okogie (plus-7) and Saric (plus-6).

In lineups with Jeff Teague and Derrick Rose this year we are getting outscored by -0.6 pts per 100 possessions. We have one of the best offenses in the NBA when they are together 119.6 pts per 100 possessions (97th percentile in the NBA) our defense is bad when they are together 120.3 pts per 100 possessions (1st percentile in the NBA).

So of course we should have had Okgoie in because we don't defend well with those 2 in together right.

Oh wait:

Lineups with Teague and Okogie in together are getting outscored by -10.8 pts per 100 possessions (10th percentile in the NBA). We are scoring 104.6 pts per 100 possessions (19th percentile) and our defense is 115.4 pts per 100 possessions (10th percentile). We have had one of the worst lineups in the NBA both offensively and defensively when Teague and Okogie have played together.

I understand that we all think everything would have been perfect with those 2 out there but we don't know that and how the season has gone they have been bad together all year.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

This excerpt from an article in "The Athletic" shows how Thibodeau screwed up:

The small backcourt of Rose and Teague was predictably porous on defense. Portland scored 74 points in the 25:22 they were paired -- a per-48 minute total of 140 -- and just 39 points in the 22:38 they were separated, which works out to 82.7 points per 48 minutes. It's a major reason why Teague was a game-worst minus-19, followed by Gibson at minus-14, Rose at minus-12 and Wiggins at minus-11. Towns and Saric only got two short stints together, totaling 3:57 in the second quarter and 3:16 in the fourth period, and finished plus-3 in that 7:13. For the game the plus players were Tyus Jones (plus-11), Okogie (plus-7) and Saric (plus-6).

In lineups with Jeff Teague and Derrick Rose this year we are getting outscored by -0.6 pts per 100 possessions. We have one of the best offenses in the NBA when they are together 119.6 pts per 100 possessions (97th percentile in the NBA) our defense is bad when they are together 120.3 pts per 100 possessions (1st percentile in the NBA).

So of course we should have had Okgoie in because we don't defend well with those 2 in together right.

Oh wait:

Lineups with Teague and Okogie in together are getting outscored by -10.8 pts per 100 possessions (10th percentile in the NBA). We are scoring 104.6 pts per 100 possessions (19th percentile) and our defense is 115.4 pts per 100 possessions (10th percentile). We have had one of the worst lineups in the NBA both offensively and defensively when Teague and Okogie have played together.

I understand that we all think everything would have been perfect with those 2 out there but we don't know that and how the season has gone they have been bad together all year.

Interesting discussion and stats, guys. One thing that is unusually good about the Wolves' roster this year compared to others is that there are 11 guys that most of us feel pretty comfortable playing significant minutes if needed...that's a true luxury, and again I credit POBO Thibs for putting an attractive roster together. But the key to our success this season is going to be how Coach Thibs mixes and matches to optimize the performance of this talented roster, and many of us think he failed miserably Saturday night. Season stats can be valuable, but you also have to analyze how particular players are performing on a particular night...it's going to vary night to night, and a good coach will recognize it and react accordingly. That's where Thibs so often falls short...it's bizarre to me how he so often has guys who with positive numbers for the night on the bench at crunch time, and the Portland game was a prime example. Taj, Rose and Teague are all talented players and make great contributions, but they were all minus players on the night and should have been replaced by Saric, Josh and Jones who were all positive players on the night. Further, when you have a 6-point lead with less than 5 minutes less, most would agree that defensive stops are needed more than potent scoring. And most of us here would agree that a guard combo of Jones/Okogie is more likely to get stops and be disruptive than Teague/Rose. Thibs didn't agree though, and I would argue that his end-of-game lineup choice cost us a win that was there for the taking. Of course we don't know for sure that Jones/Okogie would have performed better defensively than Teague/Rose, but I don't think anyone would disagree that they are better defenders on most nights. We simply cannot afford to have Thibs continue to make bad personnel decisions in close games.

[Lipoli390]

We've been winning since we put a defensive guy - Covington - in the starting lineup. Okogie was the logical replacement for Covington to continue that winning formula. Playing the defensively challenged Teague and Rose together was especially problematic against the uniquely offensively explosive backcourt of Lillard and McCollum.

The stats in THIS game show that Thibodeau's decision was a bad one. And as the evidence mounted during the game, Thibodeau failed to adjust.

I love Derrick Rose, but I've mentioned several times that the Wolves have become to dependent on him. Rose has been incredibly productive and surprisingly efficient. My point has been that we can't expect Rose to continue to play at that level. He's not going to continue to hit 47% of his threes and 49% of his shots - both significantly higher than his MVP season. The Portland game illustrated my point.

[kekgeek]

This excerpt from an article in "The Athletic" shows how Thibodeau screwed up:

The small backcourt of Rose and Teague was predictably porous on defense. Portland scored 74 points in the 25:22 they were paired -- a per-48 minute total of 140 -- and just 39 points in the 22:38 they were separated, which works out to 82.7 points per 48 minutes. It's a major reason why Teague was a game-worst minus-19, followed by Gibson at minus-14, Rose at minus-12 and Wiggins at minus-11. Towns and Saric only got two short stints together, totaling 3:57 in the second quarter and 3:16 in the fourth period, and finished plus-3 in that 7:13. For the game the plus players were Tyus Jones (plus-11), Okogie (plus-7) and Saric (plus-6).

In lineups with Jeff Teague and Derrick Rose this year we are getting outscored by -0.6 pts per 100 possessions. We have one of the best offenses in the NBA when they are together 119.6 pts per 100 possessions (97th percentile in the NBA) our defense is bad when they are together 120.3 pts per 100 possessions (1st percentile in the NBA).

So of course we should have had Okgoie in because we don't defend well with those 2 in together right.

Oh wait:

Lineups with Teague and Okogie in together are getting outscored by -10.8 pts per 100 possessions (10th percentile in the NBA). We are scoring 104.6 pts per 100 possessions (19th percentile) and our defense is 115.4 pts per 100 possessions (10th percentile). We have had one of the worst lineups in the NBA both offensively and defensively when Teague and Okogie have played together.

I understand that we all think everything would have been perfect with those 2 out there but we don't know that and how the season has gone they have been bad together all year.

Interesting discussion and stats, guys. One thing that is unusually good about the Wolves' roster this year compared to others is that there are 11 guys that most of us feel pretty comfortable playing significant minutes if needed...that's a true luxury, and again I credit POBO Thibs for putting an attractive roster together. But the key to our success this season is going to be how Coach Thibs mixes and matches to optimize the performance of this talented roster, and many of us think he failed miserably Saturday night. Season stats can be valuable, but you also have to analyze how particular players are performing on a particular night...it's going to vary night to night, and a good coach will recognize it and react accordingly. That's where Thibs so often falls short...it's bizarre to me how he so often has guys who with positive numbers for the night on the bench at crunch time, and the Portland game was a prime example. Taj, Rose and Teague are all talented players and make great contributions, but they were all minus players on the night and should have been replaced by Saric, Josh and Jones who were all positive players on the night. Further, when you have a 6-point lead with less than 5 minutes less, most would agree that defensive stops are needed more than potent scoring. And most of us here would agree that a guard combo of Jones/Okogie is more likely to get stops and be disruptive than Teague/Rose. Thibs didn't agree though, and I would argue that his end-of-game lineup choice cost us a win that was there for the taking. Of course we don't know for sure that Jones/Okogie would have performed better defensively than Teague/Rose, but I don't think anyone would disagree that they are better defenders on most nights. We simply cannot afford to have Thibs continue to make bad personnel decisions in close games.

Thibs went with a lineup that is outscoring teams by 11.3 pts per 100 possessions what is the 94th percentile over the whole year. What is one of the best lineups across the whole NBA. That lineup has destroyed people offensively this year it is in the 99th percentile. We have killed teams with that lineup.

I hate using single game +/- to determine if a player played well or not. Could some of the reason Teague and Rose had bad +/- compared to Tyus and Okogie is that Kat got 2 super early fouls forcing Gorgui into early action and we got shredded on both ends of the court. And Kat came back in the game early in the 2nd quarter when Okogie was in the game. I mean it helps a ton when you get to play with the best player on our team for a long stretch against the blazers backups. There are so many variables when it comes to single game +/-

I understand you don't like Thibs and I hate that it always seems like I am defending him because I think Thibs is a middle of the road head coach. But I feel like this board is so skewed against thibs I feel like Im always defending him. Sure thibs should have ran more plays for Wiggins I can't argue that at all but I will not blame a coach for trusting a lineup that has killed teams this year in Teague/Rose/Wiggins/Taj/Kat. It didn't work, guys didn't make plays. I would have like them to give the ball to Wiggins down the stretch, we didn't and that is on Thibs. But every single game if we win its because of our talent and if we lose its because thibs fucked up. That is why I defended so much.

[kekgeek]

We've been winning since we put a defensive guy - Covington - in the starting lineup. Okogie was the logical replacement for Covington to continue that winning formula. Playing the defensively challenged Teague and Rose together was especially problematic against the uniquely offensively explosive backcourt of Lillard and McCollum.

The stats in THIS game show that Thibodeau's decision was a bad one. And as the evidence mounted during the game, Thibodeau failed to adjust.

I love Derrick Rose, but I've mentioned several times that the Wolves have become to dependent on him. Rose has been incredibly productive and surprisingly efficient. My point has been that we can't expect Rose to continue to play at that level. He's not going to continue to hit 47% of his threes and 49% of his shots - both significantly higher than his MVP season. The Portland game illustrated my point.

Who knows though. Okogie played a grand total of 6 minutes of the game when Mccollum and Lillard where on the court together. While Teauge and Rose played 23 minutes together against Mccollum and Lillard. Of course Blazers are going to score more when those 2 are in the game together. There are so many variables to +/- when it comes to single games. I mean there are so many variables. I am not saying you are wrong saying we would have done better with Okogie in there instead of Rose but just one game samples when Okogie didn't have to go against their best 2 players for the majority of the game while Teauge and Rose had to. Of course Rose and Teague numbers are going to be worse.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I like the +/- stat, but you really need to look at it with other data along with larger samples. I'd even suggest some of the lineup combination data has too small of a sample, nevermind the single game figures. I am a bit partial to Lip and LST though....Why doesn't Thibs ever sub defense/offense in end of game situations? This is hardly an out-of-the-box concept.

In terms of what actually happened on the floor on those last two Portland possessions....I think the Lillard 3 was very well defended by Teague. Lillard makes these shots all the time unfortunately. Hat tip to him.

But then what the hell was Teague doing on the ensuing McCollum 3 that iced the game!? If you recall, Wiggins was guarding Lillard and Teague just detached himself from McCollum as CJ cleared to the weakside and Lillard had the ball. It left CJ wide open for a 3 because Rose had to stay on Aminu, who was in the dunker's position on the weakside baseline. Teague was literally guarding no one. He was loading up on the strong side, but is McCollum really the guy you want to leave wide open? Would this had happened if Okogie or Tyus were guarding CJ instead? Or was it Thibs that orchestrated this just to get the ball out of Lillard's hands?

[kekgeek]

I like the +/- stat, but you really need to look at it with other data along with larger samples. I'd even suggest some of the lineup combination data has too small of a sample, nevermind the single game figures. I am a bit partial to Lip and LST though....Why doesn't Thibs ever sub defense/offense in end of game situations? This is hardly an out-of-the-box concept.

In terms of what actually happened on the floor on those last two Portland possessions....I think the Lillard 3 was very well defended by Teague. Lillard makes these shots all the time unfortunately. Hat tip to him.

But then what the hell was Teague doing on the ensuing McCollum 3 that iced the game!? If you recall, Wiggins was guarding Lillard and Teague just detached himself from McCollum as CJ cleared to the weakside and Lillard had the ball. It left CJ wide open for a 3 because Rose had to stay on Aminu, who was in the dunker's position on the weakside baseline. Teague was literally guarding no one. He was loading up on the strong side, but is McCollum really the guy you want to leave wide open? Would this had happened if Okogie or Tyus were guarding CJ instead? Or was it Thibs that orchestrated this just to get the ball out of Lillard's hands?

I get you point. Especially on offense for defense subs late. I guess my main point is that every game we lose it's thibs fault. I'm just saying he trusted a lineup that has been one of the best lineups in the NBA this year. It didn't work. That doesn't mean it was the wrong decision.

I know it's a weird concept but sometimes it's the players fault for not making a play.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I like the +/- stat, but you really need to look at it with other data along with larger samples. I'd even suggest some of the lineup combination data has too small of a sample, nevermind the single game figures. I am a bit partial to Lip and LST though....Why doesn't Thibs ever sub defense/offense in end of game situations? This is hardly an out-of-the-box concept.

In terms of what actually happened on the floor on those last two Portland possessions....I think the Lillard 3 was very well defended by Teague. Lillard makes these shots all the time unfortunately. Hat tip to him.

But then what the hell was Teague doing on the ensuing McCollum 3 that iced the game!? If you recall, Wiggins was guarding Lillard and Teague just detached himself from McCollum as CJ cleared to the weakside and Lillard had the ball. It left CJ wide open for a 3 because Rose had to stay on Aminu, who was in the dunker's position on the weakside baseline. Teague was literally guarding no one. He was loading up on the strong side, but is McCollum really the guy you want to leave wide open? Would this had happened if Okogie or Tyus were guarding CJ instead? Or was it Thibs that orchestrated this just to get the ball out of Lillard's hands?

I get you point. Especially on offense for defense subs late. I guess my main point is that every game we lose it's thibs fault. I'm just saying he trusted a lineup that has been one of the best lineups in the NBA this year. It didn't work. That doesn't mean it was the wrong decision.

I know it's a weird concept but sometimes it's the players fault for not making a play.

I can only speak for myself, kek, but I certainly don't think that every game we lose is Thibs' fault. But I do think he is prone to make lineup and substitution decisions that are baffling to me at times, and I do think better coaching would have likely led to a Wolves' victory Saturday. When you have a 6-point lead in the closing minutes and have some solid rotation players who are generally better defensively than the alternative at that position, most coaches would opt to play the better defensive option. But not Thibs in this case. Of course we don't know that a Saric/Okogie/Jones combo would have brought home a win, but we do know they are more likely to defend better and more likely to get KAT/Wig involved...and defense and involvement by our stars very likely would have led to a victory.
All that said, there's little chance I'll blame Thibs for a loss in Oakland tonight ;-) .