monsterpile wrote:Maybe this should be another thread but I'd hope that the Wiggins "bashing" this season can be both seen and expressed as legit critism not just personal attacks/the guy is a compete bum. There is absolutely reason to rip the guy at times. People are going to vent about him to as a max guy with crazy physical gifts that's a former #1 overall pick that legitimately doesn't always play hard. I'd hope this is a season where we all can maybe agree this is maybe not a definitive season for what we have with Wiggins I'd hope this is a season where we all can maybe agree this is maybe not a definitive season for what we have with Wiggins but maybe closer to that. IMHO each season partly is about finding out what you have in various players and obviously Wiggins is among those.
It's his 5th year Monster, my goodness, at what point would you expect we pretty much know what we have? If he doesn't make big strides this year, he and his contract become an albatross on this franchise.
That being said, it's one pre-season game, so even I agree it's a little early to get on his case as far as this season is concerned.
Q to explain more what I meant there...I think the only reason you COULD suggest if Wiggins doesn't make some sort of sizable jump is if you think PART of the problem is Thibs AND you think there is CHANCE someone else can get him to be a Harrison Barnes type guy which still will make Wiggins overpaid but still valuable. Wiggins will be 24 starting next year Taj still said these guys are still young guys true. I'm saying absolute definitive. In actuality I think more what I mean when I mean difinitively would be whether after the seasonwe want to keep him or dump him Basically for nothing or did he show just a little bit where we could move him for SOMETHING in a deal. Hopefully that explains my point better. Like you said it's early...
thedoper wrote:The Wiggins issue has always been overblown here. He didn't draft himself, trade himself, or write his contract. I personally like to root for players that have flaws but work hard and have good attitudes. Every coach Wiggins has had speaks well of his work ethic and rewards him with playing time. I still want to see it come together for him and think the good things he has started to do on the court especially defensively have begun to counteract the missed shots. He continues to take an extremely vital role in our team D while playing workhorse minutes. I'm 100% sure if his shots start falling people here will start talking about his improvements in the other aspects of his game. If the shots don't fall, the dead horse rhetoric will continue.
I agree he didn't draft, nor trade himself, but he signed the contract, he set those expectations. As a player you either know what comes with that kind of contract, or you not too terribly bright.
So you think he's not trying to live up to the contract? That would be a character judgement that goes against what any of his coaches seem to think about him. I get the scruitny, but he's always had the question marks. The overblown criticism happened before he ever signed the extension. I think it's fair to criticize the contract, we may never get full value. But who wouldn't sign that deal? No one on earth would refuse an overpaid contract because they felt they weren't worth it.
One reason I do like Wiggins and see a chance for him to still work within a winning team is he (up to this point) isn't a guy that wants all the spotlight. He is a weird dude but seems to get along with people except the ridonkulous intense guys like KG and Butler. That's kinda a bad sign but we all know both of those guys could also be jerks. It's weird about Wiggins how he just doesn't seem to get it but yeah it doesn't seem like it's a hard work think or a complete bad attitude thing. It's also interesting that Taj really stood up for him in media day etc.
I thought one of the most interesting things about this game was how Towns was praising Rose after the game. There is all kinds of directions you could go with that but he certainly talked him up!
One thing I want to say is even though our offense is so boring to watch and at times it is infuriating on what Thibs is doing. Like last year it was effective, we scored a ton of points, got to the free throw line, even though at times I was pulling my hair out watching Teague and Rose go Iso ball but they were efficient.
Hopefully they can keep it up and once again we should have a good offense this year and what Thibs is doing is working on that end even though it is super frustrating to watch.
thedoper wrote:The Wiggins issue has always been overblown here. He didn't draft himself, trade himself, or write his contract. I personally like to root for players that have flaws but work hard and have good attitudes. Every coach Wiggins has had speaks well of his work ethic and rewards him with playing time. I still want to see it come together for him and think the good things he has started to do on the court especially defensively have begun to counteract the missed shots. He continues to take an extremely vital role in our team D while playing workhorse minutes. I'm 100% sure if his shots start falling people here will start talking about his improvements in the other aspects of his game. If the shots don't fall, the dead horse rhetoric will continue.
I agree he didn't draft, nor trade himself, but he signed the contract, he set those expectations. As a player you either know what comes with that kind of contract, or you not too terribly bright.
So you think he's not trying to live up to the contract? That would be a character judgement that goes against what any of his coaches seem to think about him. I get the scruitny, but he's always had the question marks. The overblown criticism happened before he ever signed the extension. I think it's fair to criticize the contract, we may never get full value. But who wouldn't sign that deal? No one on earth would refuse an overpaid contract because they felt they weren't worth it.
You sign the contract you get the heat that comes with it, end of story. It doesn't matter if anyone would turn down that deal, a max contract comes with max expectations. I have no idea what he does in the offseason, I only know what the results have been through four years. I sure hope he makes a sudden, significant improvement, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
As for the criticism he gets, if he doesn't improve just wait until every conversation is about how his contract is what is keeping the team from adding players of the type he was expected to become! It's not going to help his cause when he continues to have the facial and body language that says he doesn't care.
I just finished watching this game. I found a website that had a full replay. It has plenty of pop ups so maybe an ad blocker would be good etc. I tend to use my chromebook with my guest account when trying to use this type of site.
Its one game and its preseason and yes Tyus does good things, but this game also shows why he isn't really ready for a full time starting gig. Guys can pressure and bother him. He should play plenty and will be a valueable backup and I absolely get eh caretaker type role but I see some flaws there and I am a big Tyus fan and I think he can get to another level to be a legit starting PG someday but based on this game it shows again he isn't ready yet. Thats not really a problem to me. We have Teague and he is a legit starting level PG who will be here at leasty another year while Tyus develops. Tyus situations reminds me of how the Spurs developed a couple young small guards that are valuable contributors on playoff teams.
Wiggins was incedibly frustrating on offense, but there was legit times he was doing the other stuff. He met guys at the rim not just standing there etc. He got up and down the court. Other than his 3 point shooting I almost don't care as much about his offense becasue with his flaws he will still get some buckets I much more intersted in his defense and general do shit type of stuff. There was one play he was around the baseline and he did kinda lope around but then realized he should get out there and the guy was wel beyond the 3 point like and in like 2 steps Wiggins had a hand in his face and the guy missed.
Which leads me to the net thing...The Wolves got up the floor quickly in the first half especially. There was a couple times Dieng was slow coming up, but he was behind the play and...he is probably the slowest player maybe on either team. Towns trailed the play a few times but that fine with his ability to shoot the 3. It absolutely seemed like it was the plan to get the ball up the court and do something. that was good to see. I thought he team played with good energy throughout the game.
Tolliver is the type of shooter this team has needed for probably a decade. HE can get open and jack the ball up. How many times have we hated seeing guys like Ryan Anderson light us up? finally we have a guy like that on our squad.
Okogie did look more refined and dynamic as a ball handler.
KBD looks mobile and smooth enough to guard bench wings. dude is really long and he didn't shoot well he got himself into good shots. He had some poor plays but also stuck with them and played hard once getting a steal after a bad pass because of that massive wingspan. I was wrong to dismiss his physical traits as a 1st round pick.
Dieng was not called for a travel so thats a big deal. =) I thought he looked more like the Dieng he had been in the past. He was always flawed but he has his use even in this new NBA. I liked how he has come into this season joking around seemingly having some fun both at media day and what he said after practice last week. I think most people would agree his struggles last year were probably mental so starting off in a positive vibe likely will help.
Deng looks like a center (tall and long) and to be honest that's not a bad thing. You have a guy that can play those bigman positions that for years used to play as a wing. He can handle the ball enough to do something with it if he ends up with it and not screw up while advance the ball. He looks like he still has some game left. He could end up being a pretty good signing. Its just one game...
I actually thought he Wolves initial defense was actually pretty decent. That's nothing new though. they tended to break down off a missed shot or deflection or something like that. Towns at least got back to Foul D Jones most to the time instead of him getting an easy dunk. Once Towns had gotten there first when Jones had run the floor and that thwarted the whole possession. I'll be interested to see this team on that side of the ball. the Warriors are a tough test for game 1. I kept trying to see if there was more switching than usual but it was hard because there was so much stuff to watch for. There was some switching but I can't say if it was more than usual.
Thibs sat a ton during this game. I guess he is capable of doing so. Does anyone else remember if he took it more easy in preseason games before? I want to say yes but not to the extend of this game. Kinda interesting.
Rose did take and hit some long jumpshots. On Dane Moore's podcast they point out how Strong Rose can be with the ball. They mentioned that power dribble Rose had carving out space against Capella in the playoffs. He had a play like that against the Warriors in this game where he probably also got fouled but it wasn't called. I thought it was a pretty good observation. I still think Rose an help this team, but I hope he does more getting to the basket instead of long 2's. I suppose its possible his jumper overall could actually be a bit better since he could actually work on it a whole offseason instead of rehabbing. I'm not getting my hopes up very high on that but maybe a decent percentage on corner 3's isn't out of the question if I take that path that seems worn with Rubio optimism of years past. =)
I'd like to see Nunnally but I get that the Wolves probably need these games to get guys in. They ahve 2 rookies and one of their vets in Deng that could probably use some run since he didn't play last year. Rose is a fairly new guy. CJ Williams is far from a vet. I'd guess Nunnaly will get some run at some point. based on watching him play on film in Europe he seemed pretty stoic. Based on media day and some other videos he seems to have a pretty fun personality. Like someone else said it kinda seems Weird Butler is walking away from this team. Oh well I'm looking forward to seeing the next game which is nice. Its been a weird few weeks in MN sports.
kekgeek1 wrote:One thing I want to say is even though our offense is so boring to watch and at times it is infuriating on what Thibs is doing. Like last year it was effective, we scored a ton of points, got to the free throw line, even though at times I was pulling my hair out watching Teague and Rose go Iso ball but they were efficient.
Hopefully they can keep it up and once again we should have a good offense this year and what Thibs is doing is working on that end even though it is super frustrating to watch.
His offense also keeps turnovers down since lots of motion and passing increases the likelihood of steals and mis-communication between players. Slow, iso-ball tends to result in less turnovers. It also results in a lot of long and mid-range 2's. Those will miss more than they go in over the long term. So you are trading off eFG% for more FTs and fewer TOs.
They have the most gifted offensive big man in the game. The offense should revolve around him. Perhaps they could be even better on offense if they ran more stuff through him.
kekgeek1 wrote:One thing I want to say is even though our offense is so boring to watch and at times it is infuriating on what Thibs is doing. Like last year it was effective, we scored a ton of points, got to the free throw line, even though at times I was pulling my hair out watching Teague and Rose go Iso ball but they were efficient.
Hopefully they can keep it up and once again we should have a good offense this year and what Thibs is doing is working on that end even though it is super frustrating to watch.
His offense also keeps turnovers down since lots of motion and passing increases the likelihood of steals and mis-communication between players. Slow, iso-ball tends to result in less turnovers. It also results in a lot of long and mid-range 2's. Those will miss more than they go in over the long term. So you are trading off eFG% for more FTs and fewer TOs.
They have the most gifted offensive big man in the game. The offense should revolve around him. Perhaps they could be even better on offense if they ran more stuff through him.
I don't disagree. Kat should lead our teams in shots. I was just pointing out that even though our offense is terrible to watch we have been a top 10 offense both years with Thibs and top 3 last year. Even though it is tough to watch it works
kekgeek1 wrote:One thing I want to say is even though our offense is so boring to watch and at times it is infuriating on what Thibs is doing. Like last year it was effective, we scored a ton of points, got to the free throw line, even though at times I was pulling my hair out watching Teague and Rose go Iso ball but they were efficient.
Hopefully they can keep it up and once again we should have a good offense this year and what Thibs is doing is working on that end even though it is super frustrating to watch.
His offense also keeps turnovers down since lots of motion and passing increases the likelihood of steals and mis-communication between players. Slow, iso-ball tends to result in less turnovers. It also results in a lot of long and mid-range 2's. Those will miss more than they go in over the long term. So you are trading off eFG% for more FTs and fewer TOs.
They have the most gifted offensive big man in the game. The offense should revolve around him. Perhaps they could be even better on offense if they ran more stuff through him.
I don't disagree. Kat should lead our teams in shots. I was just pointing out that even though our offense is terrible to watch we have been a top 10 offense both years with Thibs and top 3 last year. Even though it is tough to watch it works
I think people would be more ok with it including myself if it was executed to an even higher degree and get the ball down there quicker for some easier buckets. Set multiple screens get a mismatch and then let the guy take him AND get this to happen with more than 7 seconds left of the shot clock!!!! Like I said getting the ball down there faster would help get more initial mismatches and even more time to run whatever you want to run as well as getting some easy baskets. The spacing often sucked. A guy wound have a mismatch including Towns and guys would not do anything to give him even more space. I think what drives people nuts is when it seemingly took forever for guys to do things even if it was an ISO play. A positive was there was a play in this game where Towns got a post up and all of the sudden there was nobody on that side of the floor but Towns and the defender. It was quick and Towns scored quickly and easily. The offense last year did have its effectiveness but it did seem like often there were times it seemed to be too difficult. That does happen to other teams too though although it seemed like especially down the stretch of games it got much more so for the Wolves.
I'm addition if Towns becomes an excellent screener would make a big difference probably a very underrated one. I think Tolliver is going to inject some more life into the offense. In some Ways Belly would just add to the ISO type stuff even though he was a good playmaker and willing to make the extra pass. Often it would take him a while to do whatever he was going to do. Tolliver is going to do something quick and if you chuck it to him and he has an opening it's going up. Pretty much a foreign concept around here.
kekgeek1 wrote:One thing I want to say is even though our offense is so boring to watch and at times it is infuriating on what Thibs is doing. Like last year it was effective, we scored a ton of points, got to the free throw line, even though at times I was pulling my hair out watching Teague and Rose go Iso ball but they were efficient.
Hopefully they can keep it up and once again we should have a good offense this year and what Thibs is doing is working on that end even though it is super frustrating to watch.
The Wolves scored a lot of points because they had a lot of scores - Towns, Wiggins, Butler, Teague. Butler and his 20+ points won't be here this season. Prepare for a big drop-off in points if the offense doesn't chance. Also, our iso "inside the arc" offense likely hurt our defense last season by slowing our ability to get back defensively.
