Minnesota Sports Forum

60WinTim wrote:A tweet just made me realize another great aspect of this trade:

Zach is eligible for an extension this offseason. He IS going to get paid. So although we absorb Butler's salary, we don't have Zach to pay any more. Smart, smart move by Thibs and company.

Yeah, he sort of punted this issue forward.

Wiggins better get better. Seriously, no more excuses now that he has Butler at his side. He needs to take better shots offensively and get after it more on defense. Paying him a max deal is betting on the come a bit with him, because he isn't there yet.

I don't like the trade, but I understand it's merit. I've always acknowledged that we get better short-term dealing LaVine or even Wiggins for Butler. But here are two questions that linger in my mind.

First, how much better are we really since this trade further weakens an already weak bench and further diminishes our already poor three-point shooting in a League where 3-point shooting is essential?

Second, does this make us better in the longer term and help our ultimate goal of eventually becoming a championship contender? I can't see this team rivaling the Warriors or Spurs in two years and that's when Butler can opt out of his contract and other go elsewhere or cost us a fortune to keep him at age 30 when our two other core guys will be 24. I continue to worry about a guy who, before last season, averaged around 65 games per year because of various injury issues and I can't see that tendency getting better when he's in his 30s.

So I understand why Thibs did this. And as I mentioned in another post, my friend was told by someone close to Reinsdorf a month ago that the Bulls were certain they'd deal Butler to the Wolves. But this is not a deal I would have done. I would have followed the model of the MJ Bulls, the Thunder and the Warriors, which I described in another thread -- continue building through the draft and allow your young guys to gel.

I was also disappointed in the choice of Patton at #16 with Onoruby, John Collins and Giles still on the board. Patton has nice length, but it's not Gobert or Whiteside length. He tested as one of the 4 worst athletes at the Chicago combine. And averaging 6 boards a game in college as a 7-footer is troubling. He is fluid and nimble based on the video highlights I've seen and he has a nice shooting stroke, although I was troubled by his 52% FT shooting.

This deal and the pick at #16 may turn out to be a great trade for the Wolves looking back 5 years from now, but I don't think so. This is what you often end up with when give both the head coaching and PBO positions to the same guy. There is no one to rein in the head coach's impulse to win now, even if at the expense of achieving a higher level of success over a longer period of time.

Given the obvious win-now approach Thibs has taken, free agency this summer becomes even more important. We need to significantly upgrade our 3-point shooting and substantially improve our quality depth. I'm not sure how we do that with $21 million to spend. That's probably barely enough to sign the 31-year old JJ Redick to a 4-year deal. Do we really want to do that? If not, who's out there to solve our 3-point shooting problem. Is there anyone else to help on the interior with shot-blocking, defense and rebounding? Patton clearly isn't ready to step in and help there. Will Butler stay healthy and, if not, who on our current roster can step into the SF or SG position and keep us afloat until he comes back?

I guess this means Wiggins is a 2 and his 5 rebounds a game looks alright now. It's also my son's birthday. Not sure I will forget this day. Go Wolves!!!

These aren't NFL running backs. Careers aren't over at 30. That's still inside the typical prime years range. LeBron just had his best year ever at 32. We have two top 15 players now. That's how you start to build a contender. On paper we aren't better than the Warriors or Spurs, but things happen. Kawhi goes down with an ankle. Durant's foot issue could become a problem at any time. It takes breaks to win a title. The last three titles have come with huge injury breaks. We could end up on the short end of that stick or the long end.

I think you will come around, Lip...

lipoli390 wrote:I don't like the trade, but I understand it's merit. I've always acknowledged that we get better short-term dealing LaVine or even Wiggins for Butler. But here are two questions that linger in my mind.

First, how much better are we really since this trade further weakens an already weak bench and further diminishes our already poor three-point shooting in a League where 3-point shooting is essential?

Second, does this make us better in the longer term and help our ultimate goal of eventually becoming a championship contender? I can't see this team rivaling the Warriors or Spurs in two years and that's when Butler can opt out of his contract and other go elsewhere or cost us a fortune to keep him at age 30 when our two other core guys will be 24. I continue to worry about a guy who, before last season, averaged around 65 games per year because of various injury issues and I can't see that tendency getting better when he's in his 30s.

So I understand why Thibs did this. And as I mentioned in another post, my friend was told by someone close to Reinsdorf a month ago that the Bulls were certain they'd deal Butler to the Wolves. But this is not a deal I would have done. I would have followed the model of the MJ Bulls, the Thunder and the Warriors, which I described in another thread -- continue building through the draft and allow your young guys to gel.

I was also disappointed in the choice of Patton at #16 with Onoruby, John Collins and Giles still on the board. Patton has nice length, but it's not Gobert or Whiteside length. He tested as one of the 4 worst athletes at the Chicago combine. And averaging 6 boards a game in college as a 7-footer is troubling. He is fluid and nimble based on the video highlights I've seen and he has a nice shooting stroke, although I was troubled by his 52% FT shooting.

This deal and the pick at #16 may turn out to be a great trade for the Wolves looking back 5 years from now, but I don't think so. This is what you often end up with when give both the head coaching and PBO positions to the same guy. There is no one to rein in the head coach's impulse to win now, even if at the expense of achieving a higher level of success over a longer period of time.

Given the obvious win-now approach Thibs has taken, free agency this summer becomes even more important. We need to significantly upgrade our 3-point shooting and substantially improve our quality depth. I'm not sure how we do that with $21 million to spend. That's probably barely enough to sign the 31-year old JJ Redick to a 4-year deal. Do we really want to do that? If not, who's out there to solve our 3-point shooting problem. Is there anyone else to help on the interior with shot-blocking, defense and rebounding? Patton clearly isn't ready to step in and help there. Will Butler stay healthy and, if not, who on our current roster can step into the SF or SG position and keep us afloat until he comes back?

Lip in case you don't get to reading all the posts from tonight I'll add a couple things here.

With Butler here I think there is potential to make FA easier. Butler here makes the Wolves more likely to compete now there is no question. The trade opens up a roster spot probably for at least a vet bench PG. in addition with Butler now the impact vet we needed now we can just get some solid vets that do what they do they don't need to be relied on to carry the young team when they can't get it done. Butler is here for that.

Also, Patton is actually kinda skilled. He is another one of these guys that grew a ton and used to be a guard. He can dribble actually has some highlights of a crossover even one possession a behind the back dribble which afterwards he drove from the 3 point line for a dunk. I'm not saying the guy is a unicorn but he has some interesting tools to build from. He also may not be good enough with those but on the verticle they said he was the best rim runner in the draft. So even if some of the other stuff doesn't work out he has that basic stuff that can work. Before their PG went down he was considered a possible top 10 pick. He struggled a bit after that and Inthink it was Crean that said he had it tough because teams really focused on him a lot. I'm not a big time fan of his just saying the guy is somewhat intruiging as a somewhat versatile but raw prospect but he actually showed some of those skills in college not just in a workout.

Too many posts to read. And I'm too tired after playing hoops. There will be many more times I can opine more in-depth... but I dig this trade.

I've been hoping for it for a year now. I think it's exactly the type of move to take the Wolves to the next step. LaVine was always a longshot foundation piece for me. And it's so rare for all three youngsters to hit that ceiling.

Now the team has a vet who can still play. HUGE.

Hate to see LaVine go but this is a deal you have to take. Sign a shooter like Jodie Meeks or CJ Miles to balance the roster a bit.

I bet Rubio is moved to clear way for a point guard who is an outside threat. Just a hunch.

Q12543 wrote:

60WinTim wrote:A tweet just made me realize another great aspect of this trade:

Zach is eligible for an extension this offseason. He IS going to get paid. So although we absorb Butler's salary, we don't have Zach to pay any more. Smart, smart move by Thibs and company.

.

Yes. And the team was looking at a probably uneven season from LaVine as he battled back from the injury... so they STILL wouldn't have known for certain whether he'd be worth a big extension or not.

We can now skip the 279 "Lavine starting to feel like himself again" stories... which... by the way, that level of play simply wasn't good enough anyway.

khans2k5 wrote:These aren't NFL running backs. Careers aren't over at 30. That's still inside the typical prime years range. LeBron just had his best year ever at 32. We have two top 15 players now. That's how you start to build a contender. On paper we aren't better than the Warriors or Spurs, but things happen. Kawhi goes down with an ankle. Durant's foot issue could become a problem at any time. It takes breaks to win a title. The last three titles have come with huge injury breaks. We could end up on the short end of that stick or the long end.

Yes, careers aren't over at age 30. But Butler's contract is. That's my concern. And if he sees a better championship opportunity elsewhere as he begins the stretch run of his career, he may be inclined to bolt.