Nemanja Bjelica - Hype Thread

[bleedspeed]

Monster - I would be happy with that move. I think he walks in the door and is our best PF that can play 20+ minutes a night.

[TRKO [enjin:12664595]]

There will be trade value for Martin. A guy that can start or come off the bench for a contender and score. If I get trade offers of value for him, I move him. I think contending teams who need a scorer off the bench would be very interested.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

khans, you're the CONTEXT man on this board. Don't act like Martin was the reason the Wolves won only 16 games. Doing so just shows you're stretching to make Martin the problem when he's not. Keep in mind we've all heard you say that the Wolves aren't really a 16-win team because of the horrific amount of injuries this team suffered. Nice try, though.

How about before jumping the gun, we establish LaVine as a positive role player first? He wasn't that last year and he actually was thrown in the fire for big minutes. You can't act like there's one road to success. That's FOOLISH. Jimmy Butler of all people was an All-Star this year. LaVine needs to develop his game year by year. As long as he does that, his game and elite athletic ability could turn him into a star. You rushing the process could just as easily make him flame out.

Also, trading Martin for the sole purpose of giving the starting spot to LaVine is an example of putting all your eggs into one basket. If it goes wrong, you've just created a massive hole in your lineup.

If LaVine proves to be better than Martin next year, then start him. Trading a player to open up more minutes for a guy when there's plenty to begin with is something I disagree with completely.

If it goes wrong you find out quicker that Lavine isn't a player as opposed to essentially just waiting it out in your example and finding out down the line that he can't play. You like to make decisions on guys right away so I don't see how this is a problem because you'll know if he is the solution or not right away. Then you plug Wiggins into the starting 2 spot and Bazz starts at the 3. Quick fix found. For a guy who argues Wiggins' best position is at the 2 right now, you don't give him a lot of credit to fill the hole that would be there with no Martin and a bad Lavine. Then you have to find another option anyway unless you plan to just keep hanging onto Martin until we find a suitable replacement which is hard to gauge if you only give his possible replacement 14 MPG's at that position to prove they are a better option.

There aren't plenty of MPG's available at the 2 which is where Lavine needs to play. Martin plays 34 MPG's. Wiggins gets some of that leftover time when he plays with Bazz so that leaves what, 10 MPG's for Lavine at the 2? Sounds like a great amount to determine if he is your 2 of the future. What's that? All that time also happens to be with a backup PG not named Ricky Rubio so you have to project in 10 MPG's with a backup PG if he is a good fit next to Ricky and Wiggins in the starting lineup based on little to no playing time with those 3 on the court. Sounds like a great plan to make an informed decision and a good opportunity for Lavine to earn the spot from Martin. Lavine and Martin can't both play 30 MPG's at the 2 so unless you want to keep up the Lavine playing out of position at PG experiment for most of his playing time going then Martin is blocking Lavine's playing time.

If LaVine keeps improving, Flip will ratchet Martin's minutes down accordingly. Considering Martin's age, injury history, and modest vet salary, I'm not too worried about finding minutes for LaVine or creating a lockerroom cancer out of Martin (who I believe has no history of such behavior).

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Perhaps those star players were given the keys early because they were actually really, really talented! I have a feeling Michael Jordan would have still become a star if he had averaged 18 MPG his first two seasons.

Turning your analogy on its head, I might suggest that the antidote to poor play is to simply give the guy more minutes. After all, how could anyone ever improve without getting the magical 20 MPG you have arbitrarily picked as the right number?

At any rate, here are a few so-so players that played ~ 20 minutes per game or less over their first two seasons:

Steve Nash
Zach Randolph
Al Jefferson
Draymond Green
Paul Millsap
Gerald Wallace
Andrew Bynum

There are others too. Undoubtedly you are right that most star players played more, but that's not because they were force-fed a bunch of minutes in year 2 or 3 of their career. They were actually really skilled players that earned those minutes.

Goran Dragic
Eric Bledsoe

I think the major difference with LaVine is that he's a bigger project than most any player. Big skills on the kid, but very green.

I agree that minutes itself won't make players better. There are plenty of examples about players that got minutes right away but never got better and then there are players that played very little in first couple of seasons that still improved and earned their minutes.

Below more examples about all star (or near all star level) players that got around 20 minutes or less in at least their first two seasons:

Peja Stojakovic
Jermaine O'Neil
Tracy McGrady
Rashard Lewis
Hedo Turkoglu
Mehmet Okur
Michael Redd
Tyson Chandler
David West
Devin Harris
Marcin Gortat
J.J. Redick
Kyle Lowry
Arron Afflalo
DeAndre Jordan
Jeff Teague
Derrick Favors
Enes Kanter

And even guys like Kobe, Harden, Manu, Paul George and Jimmy Butler did play still less than 30 minutes in their 2nd season.

Wow, good work Hockey and Mikkeman.

So Khans, Can we please put to bed this notion that a young player MUST play 20+ minutes per game early in his career in order to improve and, in some cases, eventually become a star?

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

There will be trade value for Martin. A guy that can start or come off the bench for a contender and score. If I get trade offers of value for him, I move him. I think contending teams who need a scorer off the bench would be very interested.

Agree, if the right deal is there, we should move him. But I don't think there is any reason to go do a salary dump or trade him for some mediocre vet simply because he is somehow perceived to be holding back other players. Everyone knows we're rebuilding, including Martin. If Wiggins, LaVine, and Shabazz keep improving and stay healthy, he'll start taking a back seat to those guys.

[TRKO [enjin:12664595]]

There will be trade value for Martin. A guy that can start or come off the bench for a contender and score. If I get trade offers of value for him, I move him. I think contending teams who need a scorer off the bench would be very interested.

Agree, if the right deal is there, we should move him. But I don't think there is any reason to go do a salary dump or trade him for some mediocre vet simply because he is somehow perceived to be holding back other players. Everyone knows we're rebuilding, including Martin. If Wiggins, LaVine, and Shabazz keep improving and stay healthy, he'll start taking a back seat to those guys.

I totally agree. No need to trade a quality player for absolutely nothing.

[Coolbreeze44]

I haven't heard anybody say we should get rid of Martin for nothing. Sometimes these threads take on a life of their own.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Perhaps those star players were given the keys early because they were actually really, really talented! I have a feeling Michael Jordan would have still become a star if he had averaged 18 MPG his first two seasons.

Turning your analogy on its head, I might suggest that the antidote to poor play is to simply give the guy more minutes. After all, how could anyone ever improve without getting the magical 20 MPG you have arbitrarily picked as the right number?

At any rate, here are a few so-so players that played ~ 20 minutes per game or less over their first two seasons:

Steve Nash
Zach Randolph
Al Jefferson
Draymond Green
Paul Millsap
Gerald Wallace
Andrew Bynum

There are others too. Undoubtedly you are right that most star players played more, but that's not because they were force-fed a bunch of minutes in year 2 or 3 of their career. They were actually really skilled players that earned those minutes.

Goran Dragic
Eric Bledsoe

I think the major difference with LaVine is that he's a bigger project than most any player. Big skills on the kid, but very green.

I agree that minutes itself won't make players better. There are plenty of examples about players that got minutes right away but never got better and then there are players that played very little in first couple of seasons that still improved and earned their minutes.

Below more examples about all star (or near all star level) players that got around 20 minutes or less in at least their first two seasons:

Peja Stojakovic
Jermaine O'Neil
Tracy McGrady
Rashard Lewis
Hedo Turkoglu
Mehmet Okur
Michael Redd
Tyson Chandler
David West
Devin Harris
Marcin Gortat
J.J. Redick
Kyle Lowry
Arron Afflalo
DeAndre Jordan
Jeff Teague
Derrick Favors
Enes Kanter

And even guys like Kobe, Harden, Manu, Paul George and Jimmy Butler did play still less than 30 minutes in their 2nd season.

Wow, good work Hockey and Mikkeman.

So Khans, Can we please put to bed this notion that a young player MUST play 20+ minutes per game early in his career in order to improve and, in some cases, eventually become a star?

I'll try not to bring it up again. I'll just let the fact that Lavine played his best basketball with 30 MPG's last year do the talking for why that is better for him moving forward. There are a lot of good players on those lists. The only player on the lists who was a legitimate star who didn't play more than 20 MPG's was Nash. I'll even give a healthy TMac and O'Neal bumps because they were number 1 guys on playoff teams. So you gave me 3 examples of players who didn't get 20+ minutes in their first two years who became number 1 guys and stars. Meanwhile there's not enough space on this page to list every star number 1 guy who fits my minutes criteria including ones tried to be used against me like Kobe, Harden, Butler and George who all played 26 minutes or more (George played 29.7 for pete's sake that's nitpicky) in year two which is higher than a normal bench player but lower than a normal starter by a couple minutes.

So yes there is more than 1 one get a true star, but my way is how 90% of the top level of them are and sub 20 MPG's appears to account for the other 10%. Sorry I didn't account for that other 10%. I usually like to back ideas that have a stronger track record than a handful of names over the last 25 years in the league. Those tend to come off as outliers to me more than legitimate support for Lavine's minutes can be less with no penalty to future performance as he'll become the same player either way.

[MikkeMan]

I'll try not to bring it up again. I'll just let the fact that Lavine played his best basketball with 30 MPG's last year do the talking for why that is better for him moving forward. There are a lot of good players on those lists. The only player on the lists who was a legitimate star who didn't play more than 20 MPG's was Nash. I'll even give a healthy TMac and O'Neal bumps because they were number 1 guys on playoff teams. So you gave me 3 examples of players who didn't get 20+ minutes in their first two years who became number 1 guys and stars. Meanwhile there's not enough space on this page to list every star number 1 guy who fits my minutes criteria including ones tried to be used against me like Kobe, Harden, Butler and George who all played 26 minutes or more (George played 29.7 for pete's sake that's nitpicky) in year two which is higher than a normal bench player but lower than a normal starter by a couple minutes.

So yes there is more than 1 one get a true star, but my way is how 90% of the top level of them are and sub 20 MPG's appears to account for the other 10%. Sorry I didn't account for that other 10%. I usually like to back ideas that have a stronger track record than a handful of names over the last 25 years in the league. Those tend to come off as outliers to me more than legitimate support for Lavine's minutes can be less with no penalty to future performance as he'll become the same player either way.

During last 30 years only 11 rookies have played more than 20 minutes per game with USG% above 20 and PER below 12. None of those players have been selected to all star game during their career and only Lavine and Brandon Knight seem to have still chance to make it. So force feeding minutes and responsibility to players that are not ready for it doesn't seem to be good strategy either.

Personally I believe that Lavine can still become star but I won't think it would be more probable if Martin is traded.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Perhaps those star players were given the keys early because they were actually really, really talented! I have a feeling Michael Jordan would have still become a star if he had averaged 18 MPG his first two seasons.

Turning your analogy on its head, I might suggest that the antidote to poor play is to simply give the guy more minutes. After all, how could anyone ever improve without getting the magical 20 MPG you have arbitrarily picked as the right number?

At any rate, here are a few so-so players that played ~ 20 minutes per game or less over their first two seasons:

Steve Nash
Zach Randolph
Al Jefferson
Draymond Green
Paul Millsap
Gerald Wallace
Andrew Bynum

There are others too. Undoubtedly you are right that most star players played more, but that's not because they were force-fed a bunch of minutes in year 2 or 3 of their career. They were actually really skilled players that earned those minutes.

Goran Dragic
Eric Bledsoe

I think the major difference with LaVine is that he's a bigger project than most any player. Big skills on the kid, but very green.

I agree that minutes itself won't make players better. There are plenty of examples about players that got minutes right away but never got better and then there are players that played very little in first couple of seasons that still improved and earned their minutes.

Below more examples about all star (or near all star level) players that got around 20 minutes or less in at least their first two seasons:

Peja Stojakovic
Jermaine O'Neil
Tracy McGrady
Rashard Lewis
Hedo Turkoglu
Mehmet Okur
Michael Redd
Tyson Chandler
David West
Devin Harris
Marcin Gortat
J.J. Redick
Kyle Lowry
Arron Afflalo
DeAndre Jordan
Jeff Teague
Derrick Favors
Enes Kanter

And even guys like Kobe, Harden, Manu, Paul George and Jimmy Butler did play still less than 30 minutes in their 2nd season.

Wow, good work Hockey and Mikkeman.

So Khans, Can we please put to bed this notion that a young player MUST play 20+ minutes per game early in his career in order to improve and, in some cases, eventually become a star?

I'll try not to bring it up again. I'll just let the fact that Lavine played his best basketball with 30 MPG's last year do the talking for why that is better for him moving forward. There are a lot of good players on those lists. The only player on the lists who was a legitimate star who didn't play more than 20 MPG's was Nash. I'll even give a healthy TMac and O'Neal bumps because they were number 1 guys on playoff teams. So you gave me 3 examples of players who didn't get 20+ minutes in their first two years who became number 1 guys and stars. Meanwhile there's not enough space on this page to list every star number 1 guy who fits my minutes criteria including ones tried to be used against me like Kobe, Harden, Butler and George who all played 26 minutes or more (George played 29.7 for pete's sake that's nitpicky) in year two which is higher than a normal bench player but lower than a normal starter by a couple minutes.

So yes there is more than 1 one get a true star, but my way is how 90% of the top level of them are and sub 20 MPG's appears to account for the other 10%. Sorry I didn't account for that other 10%. I usually like to back ideas that have a stronger track record than a handful of names over the last 25 years in the league. Those tend to come off as outliers to me more than legitimate support for Lavine's minutes can be less with no penalty to future performance as he'll become the same player either way.

Kahns, you continue to have the cause-and-effect relationship reversed. The vast majority of stars got all those minutes to begin with in Year 2, 3, and beyond because they were actually really good!

As for LaVine, I agree he had a nice April - all 8 games of it! If he comes into training camp and pre-season playing at a similar or higher level, than Flip is going to get him minutes. Martin is a bridge, not a building block. He's not going to stand in the way of Zach LaVine if Zach is playing well.