Page 8 of 8
Re: Treading Water - Lakers@Wolves GDT
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:10 pm
by Monster
Fun game loved seeing Rubio light it up. Thanks Ave for that Rubio Russell stat comparison.
Dieng and Rush have come to the party more lately. They weren't doing enough when the Wolves were struggling.
Another worthwhile game for Dunn. I'm becoming a big fan.
Wiggins had a good game offensively. He seems out of sorts though on that end. I think the cornrows have to go. :)
Re: Treading Water - Lakers@Wolves GDT
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:22 pm
by Coolbreeze44
Pretty good back and forth between Q and Khans. I don't think anyone here doesn't wish Andrew made more hustle plays. But again I find myself in a position to apologize for him. He simply doesn't have the physical stamina (yet) to play the most minutes in the league, bear a large brunt of the scoring load for the team, and be an animal on the glass while running down would be transition baskets. Now, we can debate whether he ever will - I happen to believe with a few less minutes played and another couple years of developing endurance he can become a force in these areas. But regardless, he simply doesn't have the energy to do what some of you are expecting at this point. One might say look at KAT and the energy he expends. KAT's much more mature physically than Andrew is today.
Back to the issue about Andrew's rebounding. It's been belabored in the media as well as on this board. The good point Khans makes is who cares who's grabbing the rebound as long as it goes in our column? I'm adamant that Andrew's rebound numbers reflect his unselfishness to a large degree. It might say something about him as a player, but I've seen the guy can rebound when it's him vs the opponent. His strength holds him back some, but he can definitely go get it. I just think pointing to his 4 per average is a narrow minded way to evaluate him as a rebounder.
Re: Treading Water - Lakers@Wolves GDT
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:03 pm
by Monster
AbeVigodaLive wrote:monsterpile wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:Mstermisty wrote:Watching this replay I have to say I'm warming up to a Rubio/Dunn backcourt. Dunn is starting to look more like an Avery Bradley type player, just playing tough and making a lot of hustle plays. Combine that with Rubio shooting better and something may be brewing here for the future.
Marcus Smart.
Avery Bradley is smoother and more skilled. He's developed into a very good shooter. But Marcus Smart is considered just as important. He's the king of the "do-shit" guards right now. He's going to surpass Rubio's early career start for woeful shooting (he's around 36% fg), but Celtics fans still love the guy.
He's tenacious. A bulldog defensively who'll guard 1 - 4s on the court. And he seems to follow up a wayward shot with two bad ass tough guy or pest plays. That's my hope for Dunn. Right now, he's a poor man's version of Smart. The similarities are striking. Ideally, I like that type of guy coming off the bench. And I think there's a definite spot for Dunn to develop into that here.
An arguement can be made that Dunn is already at Smart's level of production (some things are actually better) and even though they are about the same age Dunn is still a rookie. That 1 block per game per 36 mins for a combo guard is kinda sexy.
He's not as good as Smart right now.
Smart is a difference maker playing 30+ mpg for the #1 seed in the East.
Dunn is playing 17 minutes for a bottom feeder in the West.
Smart makes a ton of "winning" plays seemingly every game. Enough that a near-championship level team has him on the court guarding anybody from Chris Paul to LeBron James at the end of games. Dunn has shown flashes of that defensively, but he's not consistent yet to be more than just "a guy" out there on the court.
But it's enough to be hopeful about the role he can find in this league. Yes, the blocks per 36 minutes are a cool stat.
I totally agree I am certainly not suggesting Dunn is a better player just that...if you want him to be Smart or better there are plenty of good signs. It also helps Smart that...he is playing on a good team but of course I do think he is a part of that not just some sort of beneficiary. The whacky thing about Dunn is how many times I see him grab a rebound or block a shot and think it's a bigger player like Dieng. The guy just plays like he is much longer than he is.
Re: Treading Water - Lakers@Wolves GDT
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:14 pm
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
CoolBreeze44 wrote:Pretty good back and forth between Q and Khans. I don't think anyone here doesn't wish Andrew made more hustle plays. But again I find myself in a position to apologize for him. He simply doesn't have the physical stamina (yet) to play the most minutes in the league, bear a large brunt of the scoring load for the team, and be an animal on the glass while running down would be transition baskets. Now, we can debate whether he ever will - I happen to believe with a few less minutes played and another couple years of developing endurance he can become a force in these areas. But regardless, he simply doesn't have the energy to do what some of you are expecting at this point. One might say look at KAT and the energy he expends. KAT's much more mature physically than Andrew is today.
Back to the issue about Andrew's rebounding. It's been belabored in the media as well as on this board. The good point Khans makes is who cares who's grabbing the rebound as long as it goes in our column? I'm adamant that Andrew's rebound numbers reflect his unselfishness to a large degree. It might say something about him as a player, but I've seen the guy can rebound when it's him vs the opponent. His strength holds him back some, but he can definitely go get it. I just think pointing to his 4 per average is a narrow minded way to evaluate him as a rebounder.
A few things....I'm not sure where you get this whole physical maturity thing with Wiggins. He's the son of a world-class sprinter and former NBA player. He was literally born to be an athlete. It's not like he came into the league as some gangly teenager. He looks not too dissimilar now compared to his days at KU. Yes, a little stronger and perhaps a half inch taller.....and more hair.
I recall another one-and-done kid named Kevin Durant who really was super skinny and gangly. He couldn't even bench press 185 lbs one time at the combine. In fact, he basically flunked the combine, as he couldn't run or jump much either. Yet by his 3rd season he was averaging 39.5 minutes per game and 30 points. How could he have the stamina to do it?
Rebounding by itself will not determine Wiggins' legacy - of course not. The point that I have been making all along is that it is a proxy for all the "do shit" stuff he doesn't do - and that stuff DOES matter when added up together.
I still think his path to greatness is as mostly a pure scorer, something that he still can keep improving upon for many years to come. Most players peak as scorers somewhere between year 5 and 8, so he still has a lot more upside in this area. The other stuff? I've never seen someone "break out" in their 4th year or beyond.
Re: Treading Water - Lakers@Wolves GDT
Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:08 pm
by Coolbreeze44
Q12543 wrote:CoolBreeze44 wrote:Pretty good back and forth between Q and Khans. I don't think anyone here doesn't wish Andrew made more hustle plays. But again I find myself in a position to apologize for him. He simply doesn't have the physical stamina (yet) to play the most minutes in the league, bear a large brunt of the scoring load for the team, and be an animal on the glass while running down would be transition baskets. Now, we can debate whether he ever will - I happen to believe with a few less minutes played and another couple years of developing endurance he can become a force in these areas. But regardless, he simply doesn't have the energy to do what some of you are expecting at this point. One might say look at KAT and the energy he expends. KAT's much more mature physically than Andrew is today.
Back to the issue about Andrew's rebounding. It's been belabored in the media as well as on this board. The good point Khans makes is who cares who's grabbing the rebound as long as it goes in our column? I'm adamant that Andrew's rebound numbers reflect his unselfishness to a large degree. It might say something about him as a player, but I've seen the guy can rebound when it's him vs the opponent. His strength holds him back some, but he can definitely go get it. I just think pointing to his 4 per average is a narrow minded way to evaluate him as a rebounder.
A few things....
I'm not sure where you get this whole physical maturity thing with Wiggins. He's the son of a world-class sprinter and former NBA player. He was literally born to be an athlete. It's not like he came into the league as some gangly teenager. He looks not too dissimilar now compared to his days at KU. Yes, a little stronger and perhaps a half inch taller.....and more hair.
I recall another one-and-done kid named Kevin Durant who really was super skinny and gangly. He couldn't even bench press 185 lbs one time at the combine. In fact, he basically flunked the combine, as he couldn't run or jump much either. Yet by his 3rd season he was averaging 39.5 minutes per game and 30 points. How could he have the stamina to do it?
Rebounding by itself will not determine Wiggins' legacy - of course not. The point that I have been making all along is that it is a proxy for all the "do shit" stuff he doesn't do - and that stuff DOES matter when added up together.
I still think his path to greatness is as mostly a pure scorer, something that he still can keep improving upon for many years to come. Most players peak as scorers somewhere between year 5 and 8, so he still has a lot more upside in this area. The other stuff? I've never seen someone "break out" in their 4th year or beyond.
Who he's the son of doesn't seem relevant to me. Unless you know his family tree so well that his later development would be an aberration. I doubt you know the Wiggins' that well so that's kind of an asinine statement. But nonetheless there are a few things that indicate he has more maturing to do. The first is lung capacity. He's quick to having his mouth agape at stoppages, and he is often seen bending over pulling on his shorts. If you really watch him he looks winded often. Second he was still growing into his second year in the league! By definition that would show a physical lack of maturity. Why wouldn't he still be trying to catch up to his body? And third, he clearly hasn't finished filling out yet, not even close. He has a frame that can add more weight/muscle easily. He's not going to be the 2nd coming of Corey Brewer.
Regarding Durant. Wiggins damnear does average 39.5 minutes per game and his average is well into the 20's. What's your point here?
And please explain to me what your definition of "do shit" is. I've been coaching for 20 years and I've never heard that used to describe a player until it became part of your lexicon. I've heard of hustle stats, doing the little things, being a lunch pail player, doing Yeoman's work, and being a two way player. But I've never heard of "do shit" as it describes a player.
Re: Treading Water - Lakers@Wolves GDT
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:26 am
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
Cool, No I don't know the Wiggins or their lineage. But it's hardly a leap of faith to infer that if one's parents are world-class athletes, that their son probably will be abnormally gifted too. I for one have a hard time giving his lungs the benefit of the doubt!
My point on Durant was that he truly did come into the NBA immature physically - he was not nearly the athlete Wiggins was at 19 and he kept growing for years beyond his rookie year - yet in his third year at the same age he put up incredible numbers across the board - including the "do shit" stats. If being physically immature is what is holding Wiggins back, why didn't it hold Durant back? He averaged 2 more minutes per game with a frail frame and while his body was still growing!
You know what my definition of "do shit" is. Just because it's a term you never heard in your coaching doesn't mean it lacks relevance or meaning. People here use it all the time.
Re: Treading Water - Lakers@Wolves GDT
Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:17 am
by Coolbreeze44
Q12543 wrote:Cool, No I don't know the Wiggins or their lineage. But it's hardly a leap of faith to infer that if one's parents are world-class athletes, that their son probably will be abnormally gifted too. I for one have a hard time giving his lungs the benefit of the doubt!
My point on Durant was that he truly did come into the NBA immature physically - he was not nearly the athlete Wiggins was at 19 and he kept growing for years beyond his rookie year - yet in his third year at the same age he put up incredible numbers across the board - including the "do shit" stats. If being physically immature is what is holding Wiggins back, why didn't it hold Durant back? He averaged 2 more minutes per game with a frail frame and while his body was still growing!
You know what my definition of "do shit" is. Just because it's a term you never heard in your coaching doesn't mean it lacks relevance or meaning. People here use it all the time.
He IS abnormally gifted, but it doesn't mean he has the physical stamina yet to go along with his athletic gifts. It's just something I've noticed. Maybe improved endurance makes a difference in his game, maybe it doesn't. And regarding Durant, maybe Andrew doesn't become as great of a player. This is hardly a crime. All I'm saying is as he continues to mature physically, some of the things you criticize him for ad nauseam, may become less of a weakness.