Game Report - The Begnning of the End

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

But then, we got better as a team and he became a bad fit.

We became better as a team because we added Jimmy Butler and Taj Gibson.

This is true, still don't see why that makes Wig a bad fit. Maybe we have too many 23 year old world class players on our team that have averaged 20 points over 4 years? Or too many guys that are long and quickly becoming a defensive stopper?

There might be a very fine line between "defensive stopper" and "adequate" or "decent."

I do think he has potential. And seems to have improved. But is there anything tangible to substantiate that he's remotely near elite?

To me the line is fairly thick between adequate and stopper. He may not be a stopper yet, but he's playing damn good defense in this series.

I agree. He defended Harden better than Butler did last night. I've been as critical of Wiggins as anyone on this Board. So I'm clearly not a Wiggins apologist. Watching Wiggins play in this series and in the Denver game, I'd say he has definitely been playing some terrific defense. There is no doubt in my mind about that. Would I consider trading him this summer? Yes, but the return had better be dam good.

Honestly, I really don't want to give up on Wiggins without the chance to first see him play for a really good modern NBA head coach who can adapt his style to the talent on his roster. Floor spacing, lots of player movement off the ball with backcuts and quick passing would help get the most out of Wiggins. We'll never see that from this team under Thibodeau. Top head coaches adapt to their players, not the other way around. Snyder found a way to get the most out of Ricky Rubio in spite of his shooting issues. And Ricky's shooting improved as well this season.

I know there are many on this Board who continue to defend Thibodeau and that's fine. But the same team coached by Sam Mitchell didn't improve at all under Thibodeau even though they had a full season and offseason to improve before Thibodeau took over. Yes, the team's record improved substantially this season, which seems directly related to adding Butler, Taj and even Jamaal. But then I see what Snyder got out of that Jazz roster, what Pop got out of the Spurs roster and what Stevens got out of the Celtics roster. Then I look at a Wolves team that made fewer threes than any other team in the League, that took more contested twos than any other team in the League and that was one of the worst teams in the League defending the three. Sum it all up and it's painfully obvious that we don't have an elite head coach -- at least not for this team in this era of the NBA. I want an elite head coach before we start giving up on talented young players like Wiggins.

Lip, I don't disagree with your assessment of how to get the most out of Wiggins. Get him moving without the ball with cuts, quick post ups, and running to the open space to spot up for catch and shoot 3's (and hopefully some day he actually makes more of them...).

But where does all the open space come from to enable this style of offense? If you want to keep Wiggins and go to this style, then you need to change out the personnel in some of the other spots with shooters to open up the space necessary. Until then, we will continue to see Thibs look for mis-matches and clear outs in order to isolate guys one on one and force our way into the paint.

[AbeVigodaLive]

But then, we got better as a team and he became a bad fit.

We became better as a team because we added Jimmy Butler and Taj Gibson.

This is true, still don't see why that makes Wig a bad fit. Maybe we have too many 23 year old world class players on our team that have averaged 20 points over 4 years? Or too many guys that are long and quickly becoming a defensive stopper?

There might be a very fine line between "defensive stopper" and "adequate" or "decent."

I do think he has potential. And seems to have improved. But is there anything tangible to substantiate that he's remotely near elite?

To me the line is fairly thick between adequate and stopper. He may not be a stopper yet, but he's playing damn good defense in this series.

Can you offer up tangible evidence to support this take?

No, can you offer up tangible evidence to support he's not? I mean other than some meaningless advanced stat that has no relevance in a small sample size?

Ugh.

Yes. We literally have four years of advanced stats (flawed or not) + professional basketball people + other fans hoping he becomes a superstar + eye test vs. your eye test.

Literally.



[Note: I'm pretty sure Cool was talking about more than a 4-game stretch...]

[Lipoli390]

But then, we got better as a team and he became a bad fit.

We became better as a team because we added Jimmy Butler and Taj Gibson.

This is true, still don't see why that makes Wig a bad fit. Maybe we have too many 23 year old world class players on our team that have averaged 20 points over 4 years? Or too many guys that are long and quickly becoming a defensive stopper?

There might be a very fine line between "defensive stopper" and "adequate" or "decent."

I do think he has potential. And seems to have improved. But is there anything tangible to substantiate that he's remotely near elite?

To me the line is fairly thick between adequate and stopper. He may not be a stopper yet, but he's playing damn good defense in this series.

I agree. He defended Harden better than Butler did last night. I've been as critical of Wiggins as anyone on this Board. So I'm clearly not a Wiggins apologist. Watching Wiggins play in this series and in the Denver game, I'd say he has definitely been playing some terrific defense. There is no doubt in my mind about that. Would I consider trading him this summer? Yes, but the return had better be dam good.

Honestly, I really don't want to give up on Wiggins without the chance to first see him play for a really good modern NBA head coach who can adapt his style to the talent on his roster. Floor spacing, lots of player movement off the ball with backcuts and quick passing would help get the most out of Wiggins. We'll never see that from this team under Thibodeau. Top head coaches adapt to their players, not the other way around. Snyder found a way to get the most out of Ricky Rubio in spite of his shooting issues. And Ricky's shooting improved as well this season.

I know there are many on this Board who continue to defend Thibodeau and that's fine. But the same team coached by Sam Mitchell didn't improve at all under Thibodeau even though they had a full season and offseason to improve before Thibodeau took over. Yes, the team's record improved substantially this season, which seems directly related to adding Butler, Taj and even Jamaal. But then I see what Snyder got out of that Jazz roster, what Pop got out of the Spurs roster and what Stevens got out of the Celtics roster. Then I look at a Wolves team that made fewer threes than any other team in the League, that took more contested twos than any other team in the League and that was one of the worst teams in the League defending the three. Sum it all up and it's painfully obvious that we don't have an elite head coach -- at least not for this team in this era of the NBA. I want an elite head coach before we start giving up on talented young players like Wiggins.

Lip, I don't disagree with your assessment of how to get the most out of Wiggins. Get him moving without the ball with cuts, quick post ups, and running to the open space to spot up for catch and shoot 3's (and hopefully some day he actually makes more of them...).

But where does all the open space come from to enable this style of offense? If you want to keep Wiggins and go to this style, then you need to change out the personnel in some of the other spots with shooters to open up the space necessary. Until then, we will continue to see Thibs look for mis-matches and clear outs in order to isolate guys one on one and force our way into the paint.

Good point about spacing, Q. I agree that more shooters would help. But I think we could and should space the floor better every with our current personnel. Jim Pete complains about our spacing all the time and he's right. It's not as if we're totally bereft of 3-point shooters. KAT is very good from that range and Teague is decent although that's really not his game. Butler isn't a 3-point shooter, but he's a good perimeter shooter who can hit threes. Crawford can hit threes and so can Tyus. Even Gorgui can hit corner threes and should be given more opportunities to take that shot. Obviously, Thibodeau the PBO wasn't focused on adding 3-point shooters to the roster, when he signed Butler, Taj, Crawford, Teague and Rose. Two of those five are poor 3-point shooters and the other three are sort of middle of the road. But even with our current personnel, the spacing should be better and we certainly you shouldn't be last in the League in 3-pointers made. Beyond the spacing, the lack of movement off the ball is inexcusable and clearly by design.

Thibodeau came here to coach what he called "the best young roster in the NBA." Wiggins was obviously a part of that. Thibodeau has repeatedly rebuffed claims that Wiggins lacks competitive fire. He decided to trade LaVine and Dunn instead of Wiggins in exchange for Butler and didn't pursue any other trades for Wiggins. Then hit signed Wiggins to a max extension. Well, having obviously and knowingly cast his lot Wiggins, he should have supplemented the roster and designed his offense to take full advantage of what Wiggins brings to the table. I'm excusing Wiggins for his own failures. Although he's improved his defense significantly and even improved his rebounding more recently, he still needs to bring it every night, further improve his rebounding, become a more consistent shooter, and improve his ballhandling to the extent he can. But every player has strengths and weaknesses. Thibodeau talks about maximizing a player's strengths and covering up their weaknesses. Well, he talks a good game. In the meantime, having doubled down on Wiggins PBO, Thibodeau has failed to get the most out of him as head coach. If I were in Glen's position, I'd get rid of Thibodeau before I'd get rid of a talent like Wiggins. And as you know, this is coming from someone (me) who has been highly critical of Wiggins.

[Lipoli390]

Monster -- I actually agree with your take on Teague. When I referred to him as more of a scoring PG, I meant that shooting is his forte and first instinct. I agree he is by no means a scorer in the mold of a Westbrook. But I think your take is more precise -- a sold averagish starting PG who is somewhere between a scorer and game manager. Unfortunately, I think he often looks like a pretty poor game manager as evidenced by his overdribbling and the open teammates he either doesn't see or chooses not to give the ball to. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much of that is him and how much is our head coach. My bottom line is that he was a poor fit for this team. As you said, KAT isn't a good pick and roll player at this point in his career and neither is Wiggins, so a P&R point guard like Teague didn't make sense for this team knowing that it was built largely around KAT. Our lack of floor spacing and 3-point shooting are on Thibs -- as a coach and as a PBO who failed to upgrade our roster's 3-point shooting. Further, an averagish starting PG isn't worth a 3-year $57 million contract in my view.

By the way, I really like Teague. He's the first guy cheering for his teammates from the bench and he always gives a great effort. He's just a bad fit and a bad value in my view.

Good thought Lip I think we agree mostly on how we view Teague. I think instead of saying Teague's first instinct is to score I think it's more that his first instinct is to attack a defense getting into the paint. I haven't looked at the numbers this year but previously he passed quite a bit on drives.

I see why you think he is a poor fit but hopefully you see my angle about why he could end up being a good player going forward (at least in the short term of his contract) as well. I'm glad that you have seen him be a positive team guy in person. I think we need to give this group and Thibs a bit more time before we say it won't work. Should we expect this team to have come together this year like the Other teams have in the past? Usually it takes time and we didn't add Lebron or in his prime KG and or another HOFer like Wade/Ray Allen.

I was just thinking "If only we could sucker the Heat into a swap of Teague for Dragic" then I went and looked up his stats and...they weren't as good as I expected. I mean I still think he is a little better player overall and would be a bit better for but I was kinda shocked he only took 4 3's a game for the Heat who emphasize that shot. As for Teague's contract I think it was a market value contract which generally means you paid a bit more than the value of the player because even in the tighter times last year and coming up legit starting players signing early in FA are gonna get paid a solid amount. If Teague got paid a million or 2 less a year it would look better but I'm not sure it would have a game changing impact overall on the total salary cap picture the next 2 years. We can (meaning Glen) can use all the wiggle room they can get but yeah. Glen has put plenty of money towards this franchise the last few years I think he is gonna have to pay some luxury tax for a couple years. If thisbteam does well I think he and his partners will see plenty of financial benefits from doing so.

We're getting even closer to full agreement, because I think you're right that Teague's first instinct is better stated as an instinct to get into the paint - although I don't think he attacks the defense with the gusto of other PGs, including Ricky Rubio. There is so much hesitation in his game. Hard to know whether the contract was reasonable. I didn't like the contract from the beginning and would have much preferred paying $10 million a year to Darren Collison.

As for time to come together, I'd say this. I think we came together this season. Unfortunately, I think Thibodeau's coaching and the financial situation he's put us in as PBO cap any further significant improvement. Snyder essentially had an entirely different team than last season, but look what he did. Look at what Stevens did with a very different team. I have no further patience for Thibodeau, but part of that is that I never liked the hire in the first place.

[Coolbreeze44]

But then, we got better as a team and he became a bad fit.

We became better as a team because we added Jimmy Butler and Taj Gibson.

This is true, still don't see why that makes Wig a bad fit. Maybe we have too many 23 year old world class players on our team that have averaged 20 points over 4 years? Or too many guys that are long and quickly becoming a defensive stopper?

There might be a very fine line between "defensive stopper" and "adequate" or "decent."

I do think he has potential. And seems to have improved. But is there anything tangible to substantiate that he's remotely near elite?

To me the line is fairly thick between adequate and stopper. He may not be a stopper yet, but he's playing damn good defense in this series.

Can you offer up tangible evidence to support this take?

No, can you offer up tangible evidence to support he's not? I mean other than some meaningless advanced stat that has no relevance in a small sample size?

Ugh.

Yes. We literally have four years of advanced stats (flawed or not) + professional basketball people + other fans hoping he becomes a superstar + eye test vs. your eye test.

Literally.



[Note: I'm pretty sure Cool was talking about more than a 4-game stretch...]

My comment was he's playing damn good defense in this series

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Lip, We'll just have to agree to disagree that Thibs has the personnel to run the offense you think we need to run. By today's standards, we don't have the shooters to play a pace and space style of ball. He managed to take the talented, yet poorly fit parts that he constructed as GM and maximize the offensive output by keeping turnovers down and forcing the ball into the paint as much as possible. Less shots for Wiggins actually helped our offense because it meant more efficient players (KAT and Butler) were taking more shots. If Wiggins himself became a great 3-point shooter, it would solve a ton of issues and make him way more dangerous as an offensive weapon.

The tradeoff to this is a team that has crappy floor balance, leading to poor transition defense, and an over-reliance on the officials calling fouls. It's also kind of ugly to watch.

[Monster]

Lip, We'll just have to agree to disagree that Thibs has the personnel to run the offense you think we need to run. By today's standards, we don't have the shooters to play a pace and space style of ball. He managed to take the talented, yet poorly fit parts that he constructed as GM and maximize the offensive output by keeping turnovers down and forcing the ball into the paint as much as possible. Less shots for Wiggins actually helped our offense because it meant more efficient players (KAT and Butler) were taking more shots. If Wiggins himself became a great 3-point shooter, it would solve a ton of issues and make him way more dangerous as an offensive weapon.

The tradeoff to this is a team that has crappy floor balance, leading to poor transition defense, and an over-reliance on the officials calling fouls. It's also kind of ugly to watch.

There has been some good discussion here in some of the last posts.

Watching the 6ers and the Heat last night McHale said a couple times why are the Heat going iso down the stretch why not play the way they normally play? So it's not just the Wolves that do this and the Heat play a more pleasing brand of basketball. Having said that they are probably closer to the type of team that we could hope to be or at least what they did last year. I haven't watched enough or looked at the numbers for their play this season. What they did last year was drive and kick and that helped open up 3 point shooters. I don't think they actually had a good percentage from 3 they just got them up. Waiters who didn't play for them this season and was a big loss was a big part of attacking the defense.

I agree with Q that the offense that Thins will likely continue to run based on the personnel. It can work both to get the ball moving and getting up 3's. How? Attacking and making decisions more quickly. That includes Teague Wiggins Towns Butler all making quicker decisions. Compare to Derrick Rose and while he has the benefit of being a bench player he seems to make whatever decision he is going to make he does it quickly. He also makes good basket cuts to get easy baskets.

I know some people don't think Thins will facilitate getting guys to make quicker decisions. Maybe not. On the other hand he was the guy that had Noah as a guy people talked about as an MVP candidate and a big part of that was his passing as a big. The roster has a bunch of guys that can score all I've the floor and in various ways (even if some aspects aren't that good) so it's kinda confusing for each player. When do they do what? Plus the lack of spacing is a problem also. Let's see if Thibs massages things to get more out of the guys that are here along with what he might bring in. I personally think he is capabale. I get the skeptism of why he isn't. Regardless we are likely going to have to wait and find out but an offenese based on driving and kicking attacking quickly is the blueprint I see and I think this roster (plus some additions and tweaks) and coaching staff is capable of making it happen.