Q12543 wrote:Ah yes, Robbie Hummel, a flashpoint of controversy!
SJM, I'm disappointed that you have hopped off the Hummel train after joining it last season. Perhaps you need to watch him play again to realize that the guy actually knows what he's doing out there. I'm as much of a stats guy as anyone, but box score is wrong the place to look when comparing Robbie to AB. His overall effect on team play has been proven, as LST articulately laid out earlier in this thread.
Q, it isn't about jumping off the Hummel train. I realize he has a high BB IQ, and that he does have some value in his position, but I also don't want to see us give up on a 21 or 22 year old kid with a pretty impressive skill set. I just don't feel this team has hit the stage where we need to be filling out roles, and that is what Robbie is.
Hey I gave you a little something mentioning his Win Shares, didn't I? :)
Heh, indeed you did.
But tell me this: Would you pick up AB's option? That is where you put yourself into a box. If you say no, than we are basically putting a "for sale" sign on him, or at minimum, he rides the end of the bench, as he will be a UFA at the end of this season. If you say "yes", you are talking about committing $12+ M to a guy who really isn't as good as even Hummel yet. Are you really prepared to do that?
If AB were on a much cheaper rookie scale, I'd be a lot more willing to be patient with the guy.
I fully admit I'm not as solid on the business side of the NBA as many of you, but aren't you overstating our commitment to AB, q? As I understand it, the Wolves are already on the hook for 2015-6...there's no escaping that. By the end of October, they need to decide if they are going to pick up his option for 2016-7, which would be $7.3 million. So, if the Wolves say "yes" in October, they are really only committing to an additional 7.3. So that is the risk as I see it.
But SJM and others are advocating keeping him. I'm assuming that Flip is trying to unload him. So given those two choices, I don't see how one arrives at the "keep him" side of the equation. Like I mention above, if you are really serious about his potential, then you have to pick up his option, because doing otherwise pretty much tells him and the rest of the NBA that he isn't in our plans for the future. So are you ready to commit to him 2 more seasons at that kind of money? I know I'm not....
Yeah, I'm on the other side on this one. Flip is already on the hook for 2015-16, so if he decides to roll the dice, he's really just committing to one more year at about $7 mill. That doesn't scare me, given the enormous potential I think AB has. Don't get me wrong, I'm still quite skeptical about his future. I just think there's a big pot on the table, and if it's only going to cost me $7 million to call, I'm staying in the game.
As I read the board, though, I see more here that would prefer to cut bait with AB (or fold, I guess, if I'm going to stay with the same metaphor). And all signs point to them getting their wish, and people in my camp being disappointed.
Right, so you are basically advocating him occupying a roster spot and $12M+ "just in case" he turns out to be good versus potentially exchanging him for future roster and cap flexibility.
I actually agree that AB has some intriguing potential. I'm just not willing to make the tradeoff required to find out.
For the people that think we shouldn't give up on AB I would assume that means Bazz is basically untouchable right? :) We should be talking about that guy he has actually done something to look like a bigtime scorer and he plays his butt off. If he can be a volume 3 point shooter and stay healthy damn.
I am conflicted with AB. On one hand I see the lack of motivation and focus, and wonder if he will ever be more than Derrick Williams, but I also see a full tool box when it comes to skills.
I think it was really unfair for Flip to expect a 20 year old PF to be putting the ball on the floor and attacking the basket. That is something that comes with confidence and experience. Flip's system didn't promote that either, and with Mo Williams consistently freezing out younger players, it made it impossible for Bennett to get touches on the low block (where he was getting position).
I would pickup his option if I was going to still be in the development mode, but unfortunately our coach is our POBO, and he just can't help himself. This is why Flip shouldn't hold both positions. I would like to see them give Bennett big minutes early on and see how he handles it. I think he is more fragile mentally and needs that vote of confidence from the coaching staff. Absent of that, we might as well move him, but he has almost no value to any team without the option. Who wants to put time into a young player who will be a FA.
I have no problem with the money side because we aren't going to be a contender for at least a couple of seasons.
For better or worse, I am convinced AB is gone. Whether by trade, or just plain waving him.
I don't have a problem with it. There is a chance AB might figure it out. But he has shown over two years that he is struggling to figure it out, and he frequently gets injured, preventing him from figuring it out.
Is AB the kind of guy you want at the end of the bench, who will not complain with a lack of minutes, who can play multiple positions, and play mistake free basketball when called upon? The answer is no, that is Robbie Hummel.
We will have three guys trying to figure out the NBA - Towns, Jones and Bjelica. We have three second year guys trying to show what they learned from their first year and an offseason of work -- Wiggins, LaVine and Payne. It really makes no sense to find minutes for AB to see if he can figure it out, too.
Bennett was rumored to be available before the draft. Maybe Bennett will figure it out with another team sometime down the road, but I can see why the Wolves don't have the luxury of giving Bennett yet another chance.
Here is what I would do: Do not pick up his option for next year but keep him on the roster and see if he can earn his way into the rotation. If he can't, we definitely made a good decision to not pick up the option. If he can, we can always try to sign him to a market level contract after the season is over. I really don't think you cut ties with a former #1 overall pick without giving it a little more time to pan out. You definitely don't sell for pennies on the dollar right now or outright waive the guy. He's still an asset even if that asset has been devalued over his first two years. See how things go, too much can happen over the next year.
That's true, Cool. There is no need to rush on a decision. The first "deadline" would be when the Wolves must trim their roster to 15 (or less). That date must be pretty darn close to the end of October when the decision to pick up his 4th year must be made, too.
I have no problem going through the summer and training camp before making a decision on the option, but if we don't pick it up, I would be looking to move him for whatever. There is simply no reason to develop a guy for a season that will be a FA.
I am not high on Payne at all, and I liked him coming out of college. It's a scenario where I don't think he can compete at the NBA level, and don't see why that would change. He is just too much of a light weight, and that isn't going to change at his age.
My question is, are we still trying to find starting players, or have we resigned ourselves to finding a PF in FA or a trade. Payne isn't going to be starting PF, and either is Dieng or Hummel. If we have given up on Bennett, I don't see any other options short of Bjelica coming in and wowing us, but once again I am not sure if he has the size to man up down low defensively.
I am not sure what the rest of you are watching, but Hummel doesn't guard any position well, so this versatility thing is mind boggling to me. Hummel has also been unable to transition out to the NBA 3 to this point and certainly isn't a ball handler. He is a smart BB player with extremely limited skills and athleticism.
sjm34 wrote:I have no problem going through the summer and training camp before making a decision on the option, but if we don't pick it up, I would be looking to move him for whatever. There is simply no reason to develop a guy for a season that will be a FA.
I am not high on Payne at all, and I liked him coming out of college. It's a scenario where I don't think he can compete at the NBA level, and don't see why that would change. He is just too much of a light weight, and that isn't going to change at his age.
My question is, are we still trying to find starting players, or have we resigned ourselves to finding a PF in FA or a trade. Payne isn't going to be starting PF, and either is Dieng or Hummel. If we have given up on Bennett, I don't see any other options short of Bjelica coming in and wowing us, but once again I am not sure if he has the size to man up down low defensively.
I am not sure what the rest of you are watching, but Hummel doesn't guard any position well, so this versatility thing is mind boggling to me. Hummel has also been unable to transition out to the NBA 3 to this point and certainly isn't a ball handler. He is a smart BB player with extremely limited skills and athleticism.
SJ, I don't understand the point in bold. Suppose he does well this year and it becomes desirable for us to try and resign him. How is that different than anyone else who comes up for free agency? If we wanted him back, I think we would be in good position to keep him. After finally making some progress in his career, would he really want to go to a 3rd city and start over again?
I just see us holding more cards here than most. We have him for now, let's use him to the best of our advantage.
sjm34 wrote:I have no problem going through the summer and training camp before making a decision on the option, but if we don't pick it up, I would be looking to move him for whatever. There is simply no reason to develop a guy for a season that will be a FA.
I am not high on Payne at all, and I liked him coming out of college. It's a scenario where I don't think he can compete at the NBA level, and don't see why that would change. He is just too much of a light weight, and that isn't going to change at his age.
My question is, are we still trying to find starting players, or have we resigned ourselves to finding a PF in FA or a trade. Payne isn't going to be starting PF, and either is Dieng or Hummel. If we have given up on Bennett, I don't see any other options short of Bjelica coming in and wowing us, but once again I am not sure if he has the size to man up down low defensively.
I am not sure what the rest of you are watching, but Hummel doesn't guard any position well, so this versatility thing is mind boggling to me. Hummel has also been unable to transition out to the NBA 3 to this point and certainly isn't a ball handler. He is a smart BB player with extremely limited skills and athleticism.
SJ, I don't understand the point in bold. Suppose he does well this year and it becomes desirable for us to try and resign him. How is that different than anyone else who comes up for free agency? If we wanted him back, I think we would be in good position to keep him. After finally making some progress in his career, would he really want to go to a 3rd city and start over again?
I just see us holding more cards here than most. We have him for now, let's use him to the best of our advantage.
For the one simple reason, that we need to develop guys at that position, so why waste the time on a guy that we will have to over pay to keep. Think Buddinger. If he was a RFA that would be a different story.
