CoolBreeze44 wrote:I will go as far as to say this, and I'm sure some of you aren't going to like it. If Dunn can't play PG in the NBA, he is going to have a relatively short career. Playing off the ball some in college doesn't mean anything if you can't keep the defense honest at the NBA level. If Thibs plays Rubio and Dunn in the same backcourt (and I think he realizes he can't) , we are going to be twice as easy to defend. It's bad enough being able to sag off Rubio, but when you don't have to respect the outside game of both guards defending becomes elementary. As a coach when I'm playing against a team with guards that can't shoot, I'm salivating. Game planning is made simple. I'd have to believe at the NBA level it would be even more magnified.
I agree with what you are saying be the reality is it's tough to be an effective perimeter player that can't shoot it doesn't really matter what position it is. Rubio is so special in other areas he still is a pretty good player with such a big flaw but that's an exception to the rule. So yeah let's hope he can shoot and yeah absolutely it would be even worse if he can't play PG. I don't think Dunn would be out of the league if he can't shoot he would at least stick around like a Marcus Smart type that going to be on a team's bench because I think he will be a legit defensive player that's pretty physically gifted and probably can at least be good enough to be a backup PG. It's still early let's see how it plays out and right now I want to see him playing as a PG unless he is inserted into the lineup as a defensive replacement or something for a possession here or there.
True, but what's the difference between Rubio-Dunn-Rush and Dunn-Bazz-Rush? Bazz is not exactly known for a great perimeter game either.
The fact is 3-point shooting is still a weakness for this team. Now, part of our problem the last couple of years was simply volume of 3's taken. Thibs seems to be correcting this based on the early pre-season results. After all, a 3-pointer at a mediocre rate of 33% is still a much better shot than a long 2 at 40% (and that's actually a good percentage for a long 2). Yet Flip and Mitchell (especially Flip) could never get this simple math in their thick heads.
Accuracy on the other hand is the wildcard. We certainly aren't going to be Golden State, which has somehow managed to assemble three of the greatest shooters of all time on one roster. Last year we ranked 25th in accuracy. If we can bump that up to 20th or so and get a lot more volume, while still getting to the line a bunch, I'm confident our offense will be fine.
Well at least Bazz's corner 3 point percentages the last 2 years are over 40% so that's something.
Dunn hasn't looked good so far and I think having a bit of concern makes sense but who knows he could find his game even down the stretch in preseason and have a solid start to the season. It's still early in his career.
Now to the whole team taking and therefor making 3's. There are a few examples I've seen where players that take more 3's tend to make more 3's. Telfair is the guy that really made me take notice of that. Not everyone benefits from taking more shots but I would think its gonna help some guys.
lipoli390 wrote:
Watching him in college, Dunn struck me as a scoring PG in the mold of a Westbrook, but not nearly as talented overall. So far this preseason, Dunn seems to be getting a lot of assists. Watching him in college I thought he saw the floor well and made good decisions running the offense. His problem has been protecting the ball. In the one game I watched on line this preseason I noticed that Dunn was losing the ball off the dribble, not on bad passes. I saw him do the same thing in college. He's careless with the ball and not a great ball-handler by NBA PG standards. He'll have to improve that aspect of his game to be a good NBA PG.
I disagree that he made good decisions. His decision making along with his poor handle are his main issues. He also often attacks out of control and tries some tough acrobatic finishes which also is a sign of poor decisions. But he's got good court vision and can compete some ambitious passes which helps him rack up good assist numbers.
I don't think we're far apart in our evaluation of Dunn. We both agree his handle is suspect and I agree he too often attacked the basket out of control in college. But I also recall him making some good decisions as in making the right pass at the right time to the right player. So I think he's been a mixed bag on the decision-making front.
Interestingly, Dunn wasn't a particularly good finisher in college. In that sense, he's not in the same league as Westbrook or Wade. Dunn is quick with the ball, but watch him closely and you realize he doesn't explode off the floor like those two or Zach. And that's why I think Dunn's success in the NBA will ultimately depend on his ability to improve his handle and develop into a solid PG. His bread and butter on the offensive end will probably be more as a facilitator than scorer. However, I see Dunn defending effectively against SGs as well as PGs. Admittedly, I'll have to see a lot more of Dunn before I can have a high degree of confidence in my assessment. So for now, my evaluation of Dunn is highly tentative. But I still wish we had drafted Buddy. :)
Lip, I agree that Dunn's athleticism has been oversold a bit. He is not in the same league as LaVine, Wiggins, Westbrook, or Wade (when he was younger). However, one area he exceeds Wiggins and LaVine is his size and strength for his position. He's a big, strong, tough SOB as a PG. LaVine and Wiggins are a bit more streamlined....
I think with Dunn the athleticism is there (sure maybe he isn't quite Westbrook, Wade, Wiggins etc but few are) I just think the thing that's lacking is the body control that some of those other guys have. He is still going to have some very good highlight plays because of that athletic ability. I always questioned whether he would be a star but I've always though he is a guy that's going to make some plays.
When it comes to Dunn's handle he has good skill and good moves it's just loose away from his body and he doesn't have control of the ball. Those are big things but he can handle the ball if he tightens it up even my being more disciplined with what he does it will make him tough to guard.
I know Dunn is 22 and has quite a bit off college experience but I think we still need to have patience with him. In 3 years he will be 25 which is still plenty youthful. I know he is a highly regarded #5 pick and it looks like he will be a guy that will play minutes as the backup PG so his play this year is going to matter so there are expectations for him which there should be. It's possible Dunn may not meet expectations this year and still end up being a good player.
I'm still on the trade or sit Bazz wagon. I just think he is an obstacle to both offensive ball movement and spacing and team defense. If he plays with Dunn, you have two guys who aren't dependable from deep and clog the middle. I want to see how a second team lineup of Tyus, Dunn, Rush, Belly and Cole works.
TeamRicky wrote:I'm still on the trade or sit Bazz wagon. I just think he is an obstacle to both offensive ball movement and spacing and team defense. If he plays with Dunn, you have two guys who aren't dependable from deep and clog the middle. I want to see how a second team lineup of Tyus, Dunn, Rush, Belly and Cole works.
I disagree TRicky. A secondary lineup of Dunn - Rush - Muhammad - Belly - Aldrich gives us a nice combination of inside and outside scoring options. Bazz and Aldrich crash the glass while Rush and Belly gives us great spacing and legit 3 point shooters, leaving Dunn to play his natural penetrating game.
Matchup dependant you could swap Rush for Jones to add another ball handler.
TeamRicky wrote:I'm still on the trade or sit Bazz wagon. I just think he is an obstacle to both offensive ball movement and spacing and team defense. If he plays with Dunn, you have two guys who aren't dependable from deep and clog the middle. I want to see how a second team lineup of Tyus, Dunn, Rush, Belly and Cole works.
I disagree TRicky. A secondary lineup of Dunn - Rush - Muhammad - Belly - Aldrich gives us a nice combination of inside and outside scoring options. Bazz and Aldrich crash the glass while Rush and Belly gives us great spacing and legit 3 point shooters, leaving Dunn to play his natural penetrating game.
Matchup dependant you could swap Rush for Jones to add another ball handler.
I would like to sub in Tyus for Bazz and find out. They both are bad defenders but for different reasons. Tyus maybe smaller and less athletic but I think he could be more effective. I think Tyus has much better court awareness and plays under control so I'd opt to try it. On offense, Tyus can pass and has much better range from outside. Bazz is a better interior scorer but we got Dunn to do that. Tyus really showed me something this summer and I'd like to see him have an opportunity here. Its preseason after all and I wish Thibs would give Tyus some burn.
TeamRicky wrote:I'm still on the trade or sit Bazz wagon. I just think he is an obstacle to both offensive ball movement and spacing and team defense. If he plays with Dunn, you have two guys who aren't dependable from deep and clog the middle. I want to see how a second team lineup of Tyus, Dunn, Rush, Belly and Cole works.
I disagree TRicky. A secondary lineup of Dunn - Rush - Muhammad - Belly - Aldrich gives us a nice combination of inside and outside scoring options. Bazz and Aldrich crash the glass while Rush and Belly gives us great spacing and legit 3 point shooters, leaving Dunn to play his natural penetrating game.
Matchup dependant you could swap Rush for Jones to add another ball handler.
I would like to sub in Tyus for Bazz and find out. They both are bad defenders but for different reasons. Tyus maybe smaller and less athletic but I think he could be more effective. I think Tyus has much better court awareness and plays under control so I'd opt to try it. On offense, Tyus can pass and has much better range from outside. Bazz is a better interior scorer but we got Dunn to do that. Tyus really showed me something this summer and I'd like to see him have an opportunity here. Its preseason after all and I wish Thibs would give Tyus some burn.
I get that people want Tyus to get run and so do I to an extent but I take problem with you saying Tyus is a much better shooter. I understand that Tyus only played in a handful of games last year but he shot 30% from 3pt range and Shabazz is a 31% 3pt shooter, so even though I agree Tyus projects being a better shooter he has not done that yet in the NBA. They are both below average defenders but I would say that defense for PG is more important than SF/SG position (I understand some matchups it is different). I like that Shabazz has to above average NBA skills in interior offense and offensive rebounding. Right now I am not sure if Tyus has one tangible above average NBA skill.
I just want to see what Thibs can do with Shabazz because he is known at playing to his players strengths and Shabazz has NBA skills. You might end up being right and Shabazz will end up being a negative for the wolves. But I want to see it first before playing Tyus over him. (I do believe this will be Shabazz last year as a wolf)
Well, we have seen three years of 'Bazz playing mostly in the role Thibs has planned for him, so I don't think we are going to discover anything shockingly new about his game.
That being said, he certainly feels like the type of player you want coming off the bench featured in a role that creates mis-matches and generates instant offense. The question with him has always been defense, spacing on offense, and finding the open guy. Those liabilities have overshadowed his ability to score a lot of points. We'll see if that changes this year.
Q12543 wrote:Well, we have seen three years of 'Bazz playing mostly in the role Thibs has planned for him, so I don't think we are going to discover anything shockingly new about his game.
That being said, he certainly feels like the type of player you want coming off the bench featured in a role that creates mis-matches and generates instant offense. The question with him has always been defense, spacing on offense, and finding the open guy. Those liabilities have overshadowed his ability to score a lot of points. We'll see if that changes this year.
I agree with what you are saying Q but I think it's fair to say to some extent Bazz hasn't exactly been featured in his role (relatively speaking) except when Flip was his coach. That year which was only 38 games for him was his most effective. I'm not suggesting Thibs is going to transform him or anything but we may see the best of Bazz doing what he does and him being more effective because he is being put in more positions to succeed. Bazz is going to do what he can and will do regardless (and like you said he has for 3 seasons) but running a few things for him and putting him in a position to succeed makes a lot of sense. It also looks like Dunn can actually make some nice post passes so that could be a positive. That's a skill that isn't talked about all that much and it's something that can have a significant effect on how that post player get a good look.
