Minnesota Sports Forum

Abe's Late Night Watch... Fall Asleep... and Give an Early Morning DVR Review:

- Minnesota just isn't very good.

- Denver seemed to be 5 - 12 points ahead the entire game. In reality... it was only MOST of the game. They took a 5 point lead with 8:10 left in the 2nd quarter. They were up by at least 6... but never more than 11 the entire 3rd quarter. Minnesota cut it to 3 with 10:32 left in the 4th. Denver scored immediately... and led by 5 - 12 the rest of the way.

What's this mean? It was an easy win for Denver. They were NEVER challenged in any meaningful way. They coasted to this win. They're coasting in this series (Minnesota has won 1 of the 12 quarters.)

- What makes it worse is that the Wolves didn't seem to play terribly. Denver is just significantly better.

- The Wolves bench shot 3 - 17 on field goals. The Nuggets bench shot 13 - 21 on field goals.

- Good Ant. Denver had its biggest lead of the night (+13). Kat made a bad pass and Caldwell-Pope had a breakaway. Ant didn't give up on the play and made an incredible block at the rim. Then, he Euro'd into a layup on the other end. SUPERSTAR. He shot a career-high 15 FTA. Made 13. He finished with 36. (and yet the ESPN guys speculated aloud during the game that MN fans don't realize how special he is. C'mon!)

- Bad Ant. He tried to do too much in the 4th quarter... again. He missed open players repeatedly while taking on the Nuggets by himself, including...

- Towns. He played well offensively. The Nuggets had no answer, but Edwards and others stopped Towns for the Nuggets. The Wolves missed him repeatedly in that 4th quarter. Coming back in this game was a longshot, but he was probably the only shot once Denver really started to send extra help to Edwards. He MUST figure out how to create for his teammates consistently (even when he thinks he's "on") to make THE leap as a basketball player. Sounds like most want KAT gone (fair enough). I think it might be mutual if this is Towns' future here.

- Towns is not a good defensive player. Towns and Gobert together didn't work. It's fine to give it a shot. It's NOT fine to make one of the NBA's all-time lopsided trades to find out so quickly and definitively that it doesn't work.

- Gobert is not a good offensive player. Gobert and Towns together didn't work. It's fine to give it a shot. It's NOT fine to make one of the NBA's all-time lopsided trades to find out so quickly and definitively that it doesn't work.


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This isn't a "the refs screwed us" post. It's a "longtime NBA fan is growing frustrated at the flopping and inconsistency in EVERY NBA game" post.

Anybody catch Joel Embiid lately? If not, just check out Twitter or something and you'll see so many clips of him flailing all over the court getting fouls. It's sad and funny... but also very effective (Philly is going to the Finals). Denver, after not getting a great whistle for three quarters, went to this action in the 4th quarter. Any incidental contact and their players were hurling themselves to the ground with force.

It worked every time.

Many of us here play(ed) basketball. How many times did you fall down the last time you played? It definitely wasn't violently after marginal contact bumping into somebody slightly.

There are reasons why I only watch soccer during the World Cup. I really wish that sort of flopping is emphasized out of the league. As a bonus, a lot of the whining about officiating would go away.

Watched the game this morning. Here is my take.

Towns wasn’t as good as his stat line but he was just fine.

Conley has been good.

The thing that’s hurting the Wolves this series (aside from towns struggles) is depth/contributions from their bench. This game that was the difference maker. Anderson has been a bit of a disappointment. 2 points in this game isn’t enough from him. Nowell I don’t think is playing terrible BUT he simply can’t make baskets and that’s why he is out there. Prince has been just fine and NAW actually played well. Meanwhile Brown has been good for the Nuggets and Braun gave them something in this game. Imagine having another pretty good player off the bench for the Wolves. Imagine having a guy come in and get some buckets. Guess what the Wolves had 2 players on their roster that would help a lot in McDaniels and Naz. Naz was that buckets getter guy. McDaniels is a glue guy that’s an elite defender a factor from 3 and will get you a few points every game. What of the Wolves kept those players and added a solid depth guy in FA? That could be pretty huge.

Meanwhile I think one issue that maybe has been discussed but I was thinking about it in this game is with Naz and McDaniels out the Wolves are less scary from 3. This likely leads to less space for Edwards and Towns.

I can see the side of folks that say we should try and move Players and build around Edwards and McDaniels but I also can see the side of continue building with essentially this group that’s here. There are challenges either way and no certain success regardless of the path. It will be interesting to see if Denver is a team that turns out to be a really good one in the playoffs because they are one that’s been limited by injuries and yet continued to add to their roster. That
If it be a path to consider for the Wolves going forward.

Hopefully the Wolves can get a win in the next game and keep extending the series. I want to see this team play more.

Minnesota traded for Rudy Gobert, in part, because the '22 Wolves were a poor rebounding team.

Denver has outrebounded the Timberwolves in each game in this series (+25 overall).

Minnesota ranked #26 in the NBA for rebounding this season.

_______________

If playing with two bigs creates problems on offense or defense because of their lack of speed... but doesn't offer any advantages because of their prohibitive size advantage?

... ummmmm... err... ummm...




[Note: That's not an anti-Gobert post. It's a What the Fuck, Tim Connelly post.]

Great game! I only say that because I made the right choice and watched the Wild.

AbeVigodaLive wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:34 am Minnesota traded for Rudy Gobert, in part, because the '22 Wolves were a poor rebounding team.

Denver has outrebounded the Timberwolves in each game in this series (+25 overall).

Minnesota ranked #26 in the NBA for rebounding this season.

_______________

If playing with two bigs creates problems on offense or defense because of their lack of speed... but doesn't offer any advantages because of their prohibitive size advantage?

... ummmmm... err... ummm...




[Note: That's not an anti-Gobert post. It's a What the Fuck, Tim Connelly post.]

Abe, I hear you, but like, what do we do about it? Both KAT and Rudy's trade values are probably at an all-time low right now. Obviously the trade was a huge mistake, we know that, and I'm still shocked by the Connelly's gall for coming in here and pulling the trigger on that almost immediately. It's like a total outsider making a HUGE gamble with someone else's money. But it's done.

Many times this year, especially after KAT came back and it still felt like we couldn't get anything going, I've had this analogy in mind for where we are as a franchise. Let me know what you think.

Every team's goal is to win a championship. To get to the mountaintop. So basically, we're like mountain climbers. And every team at every moment is somewhere on the mountain. The Celtics, Bucks, etc., are already near the top for this season. The Pistons and Rockets are down at base camp, assembling a team of climbers and collecting gear (draft picks, tradeable contracts, etc).

In this analogy, we were a team that was surprisingly getting close to halfway up the mountain last year, despite having a couple disappointing climbers (KAT, DLO) and a couple promising but young and inexperienced climbers (Ant, McD). We also still had most of the gear (draft picks) we might need for a long climb, because it was clear we weren't going to summit for the next couple of years. In this analogy, when TC came in and traded for Gobert, it was like giving away a bunch of ropes, spare tents, and food in exchange for adding another experienced climber. The idea was that we'd be able to get up the mountain much faster with that additional good, experienced climber, so we might not need all that extra gear anyway. But of course, without more food and spare equipment, our window for reaching the summit would be shorter.

So here we are, a year later. We've still got a few supplies (draft picks occasionally) and possible contributing climbers we haven't seen much from yet (Minott and maybe Moore), but we didn't get any higher up the mountain this year than last year. That injury to a key climber (KAT) explains it to some degree. But the pressure is clearly on for the next couple of years because the supplies are low and some of these climbers are getting older.

Should we have kept those supplies and not traded them for that French alpinist? It absolutely looks like it. But this is where we're at. And if we trade any of these good climbers now, we won't get many supplies for them and it'll probably send us back down the mountain where it'll still take a long time to re-supply. We're kind of screwed, but I think the only thing to do at this point is probably to push on up the mountain.

SameOldNudityDrew wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:14 pm

AbeVigodaLive wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:34 am Minnesota traded for Rudy Gobert, in part, because the '22 Wolves were a poor rebounding team.

Denver has outrebounded the Timberwolves in each game in this series (+25 overall).

Minnesota ranked #26 in the NBA for rebounding this season.

_______________

If playing with two bigs creates problems on offense or defense because of their lack of speed... but doesn't offer any advantages because of their prohibitive size advantage?

... ummmmm... err... ummm...




[Note: That's not an anti-Gobert post. It's a What the Fuck, Tim Connelly post.]

Abe, I hear you, but like, what do we do about it? Both KAT and Rudy's trade values are probably at an all-time low right now. Obviously the trade was a huge mistake, we know that, and I'm still shocked by the Connelly's gall for coming in here and pulling the trigger on that almost immediately. It's like a total outsider making a HUGE gamble with someone else's money. But it's done.

Many times this year, especially after KAT came back and it still felt like we couldn't get anything going, I've had this analogy in mind for where we are as a franchise. Let me know what you think.

Every team's goal is to win a championship. To get to the mountaintop. So basically, we're like mountain climbers. And every team at every moment is somewhere on the mountain. The Celtics, Bucks, etc., are already near the top for this season. The Pistons and Rockets are down at base camp, assembling a team of climbers and collecting gear (draft picks, tradeable contracts, etc).

In this analogy, we were a team that was surprisingly getting close to halfway up the mountain last year, despite having a couple disappointing climbers (KAT, DLO) and a couple promising but young and inexperienced climbers (Ant, McD). We also still had most of the gear (draft picks) we might need for a long climb, because it was clear we weren't going to summit for the next couple of years. In this analogy, when TC came in and traded for Gobert, it was like giving away a bunch of ropes, spare tents, and food in exchange for adding another experienced climber. The idea was that we'd be able to get up the mountain much faster with that additional good, experienced climber, so we might not need all that extra gear anyway. But of course, without more food and spare equipment, our window for reaching the summit would be shorter.

So here we are, a year later. We've still got a few supplies (draft picks occasionally) and possible contributing climbers we haven't seen much from yet (Minott and maybe Moore), but we didn't get any higher up the mountain this year than last year. That injury to a key climber (KAT) explains it to some degree. But the pressure is clearly on for the next couple of years because the supplies are low and some of these climbers are getting older.

Should we have kept those supplies and not traded them for that French alpinist? It absolutely looks like it. But this is where we're at. And if we trade any of these good climbers now, we won't get many supplies for them and it'll probably send us back down the mountain where it'll still take a long time to re-supply. We're kind of screwed, but I think the only thing to do at this point is probably to push on up the mountain.

I think simply not overpaying for the wrong climber would have been a much better option... and it would have resulted in fewer climbers plummeting to their deaths in horrifying fashion.

As far as "nothing we can do about it..."

- Yes. We have no control of this organization. Just like when we couldn't stop the Rambis, Kahn or Darko additions. Just like when we couldn't stop the Wes Johnson pick. Or Avery pick. Or Paul Grant pick. Or Derrick Williams pick. Or Joe Smith signing. Or Ndudi Ebi signing.

- EVERYBODY* saw the Gobert trade as an overpay. It's a historically bad trade. Already... and we're only 1/4 of the way in on it. To just chalk it up as "oh well" isn't enough for me. When a team makes an obvious* franchise-defining misstep like this... it's hard to just shrug and think positively about what's next... if the same people are in charge.

It's literally the ONLY story with this franchise right now.

1) The trade was a disaster.
2) How the heck do we try to recover from it.

This discussion is here to stay because every single move the franchise makes over the next few years will have roots in this debacle of a trade.





* I rounded up. Maybe only about 95% of people thought it was obviously an overpay. Meanwhile, a slightly less percentage of people (75% or so) thought it was a terrible fit. I might be conservative with both estimates...

As we reflect on Jamal Murray destroying us in the first three games of the series, let's not forget this...John Calipari called his good buddy Tom Thibodeau before the 2016 draft and advised him to take Murray if he somehow dropped to 5. Thibs thought about it, but the basketball genius instead decided to go with.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


Kris Dunn

FNG wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:19 pm As we reflect on Jamal Murray destroying us in the first three games of the series, let's not forget this...John Calipari called his good buddy Tom Thibodeau before the 2016 draft and advised him to take Murray if he somehow dropped to 5. Thibs thought about it, but the basketball genius instead decided to go with.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


Kris Dunn

I was begging for Murray that night.

Coolbreeze44 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:29 pm

FNG wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:19 pm As we reflect on Jamal Murray destroying us in the first three games of the series, let's not forget this...John Calipari called his good buddy Tom Thibodeau before the 2016 draft and advised him to take Murray if he somehow dropped to 5. Thibs thought about it, but the basketball genius instead decided to go with.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


Kris Dunn

I was begging for Murray that night.

Cam and I were in on Murray also but I would have settled for Buddy…Dunn was a pretty distant 3rd. I was also right about Sabonis. Imagine of the Wolves had just signed FVV as an undrafted FA. Good times looking back.

Monster wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 6:43 pm

Coolbreeze44 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:29 pm

FNG wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:19 pm As we reflect on Jamal Murray destroying us in the first three games of the series, let's not forget this...John Calipari called his good buddy Tom Thibodeau before the 2016 draft and advised him to take Murray if he somehow dropped to 5. Thibs thought about it, but the basketball genius instead decided to go with.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................


Kris Dunn

I was begging for Murray that night.

Cam and I were in on Murray also but I would have settled for Buddy…Dunn was a pretty distant 3rd. I was also right about Sabonis. Imagine of the Wolves had just signed FVV as an undrafted FA. Good times looking back.

Murray was also lobbying to come to Minnesota pre-draft. That kind of thing usually tips the scales but at least we got out of the country club with Thibs like we wanted