Minnesota Sports Forum

TheFuture wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:01 pm I think the easiest explanation is that both have serious faults, and moving KAT is more likely to benefit the Wolves' transition to building around Ant. It has to happen, will happen, and there is not a better time than now. KAT being a 36 mil hit vs. 45+, new CBA, looming big extensions for Ant and Jaden, negotiating with Prince and Anderson, UFAs in Reid and NAW right now, no answer at PG beyond Conley, limited draft picks. Moving Gobert just puts the team back to where they were before trading for Gobert and with less assets.

But moving Gobert also closes the book on that chapter. Rudy is not gonna scare you if he's playing for someone else and they make defensive centers with questionable offense every year in drafts. If he's dealt even for crap expirings then at least it puts us on track with the rest of the league instead of a year behind like we always seem to be.

I’m fine with moving either of them… there are pros and cons associated with either path, as everyone has pointed out. The big shift in my thinking is that I don’t think it’s tenable to “run it all back” now.

WildWolf2813 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:57 pm

TheFuture wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:01 pm I think the easiest explanation is that both have serious faults, and moving KAT is more likely to benefit the Wolves' transition to building around Ant. It has to happen, will happen, and there is not a better time than now. KAT being a 36 mil hit vs. 45+, new CBA, looming big extensions for Ant and Jaden, negotiating with Prince and Anderson, UFAs in Reid and NAW right now, no answer at PG beyond Conley, limited draft picks. Moving Gobert just puts the team back to where they were before trading for Gobert and with less assets.

But moving Gobert also closes the book on that chapter. Rudy is not gonna scare you if he's playing for someone else and they make defensive centers with questionable offense every year in drafts. If he's dealt even for crap expirings then at least it puts us on track with the rest of the league instead of a year behind like we always seem to be.

You both made the best arguments for moving one or the other. I agree with WW2813, although I definitely see Future’s point, which Cool has also articulated well in previous posts. I firmly believe we need to move one or the other this summer. The smart move in my view is moving Rudy. I don’t mind resetting back to when we won 46 games. And I don’t think moving Rudy would put take us all with way back to that point. Edwards and Jaden are both better than they were in that 46-win season and will likely be even better next season. We have Slo Mo and Conley - both upgrades over what we had two years ago. Naz is better and re-signing NAW should make us better. And moving Gobert mainly for salary relief would ensure the ability to use the full value of all the salary cap exceptions next year and the year after without running into luxury tax penalties. We would also get SOME meaningful assets (picks or rotation players) in return for Rudy.

Sundog wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:54 pm I’m fine with moving either of them… there are pros and cons associated with either path, as everyone has pointed out. The big shift in my thinking is that I don’t think it’s tenable to “run it all back” now.

The front office might feel the same way, meaning if the right offer comes along for either one, they have a vision of how it could work. We didn't have Gobert two years ago and made the playoffs. We didn't have KAT for most of last season and made the playoffs. Finch and his staff have had plenty of reps coaching games without either guy in the lineup for the last two seasons.

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 7:09 am

Sundog wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:54 pm I’m fine with moving either of them… there are pros and cons associated with either path, as everyone has pointed out. The big shift in my thinking is that I don’t think it’s tenable to “run it all back” now.

The front office might feel the same way, meaning if the right offer comes along for either one, they have a vision of how it could work. We didn't have Gobert two years ago and made the playoffs. We didn't have KAT for most of last season and made the playoffs. Finch and his staff have had plenty of reps coaching games without either guy in the lineup for the last two seasons.

Good point about the Wolves making the playoffs without one or the other of our two bigs the past two seasons.

But there’s a significant caveat to this year’s playoff appearance without KAT - namely the fact that the Wolves weren’t without KAT the entire season. More importantly, if you look at the role KAT played in the last four Wolves wins this season, you see that the team probably would NOT have made the playoffs without KAT. He was instrumental in all four of those wins. He had 30 points and 8 rebounds in our 5-point win over the Pelicans on Apr. 9. He had 22 points, 14 rebounds and 5 assists in our 5 point win over the Nets on Apr. 4. He had 14 points, 5 rebounds and 3 assists in our 3 point win over GS on March 27. And he had 22 points in our 1 point win over Atlanta on March 23. Maybe we win two of those games without KAT, but more likely we lose at least three if not all four without him.

I’d love to see the KAT of two seasons ago (healthy) playing with last season’s much better versions of Ant and Jaden, along with Slo Mo and later in the season NAW and an improved Naz. The difference between KAT and Rudy is huge, which is why the organization should focus on trading Rudy in my view.

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:00 pm

WildWolf2813 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:57 pm

TheFuture wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:01 pm I think the easiest explanation is that both have serious faults, and moving KAT is more likely to benefit the Wolves' transition to building around Ant. It has to happen, will happen, and there is not a better time than now. KAT being a 36 mil hit vs. 45+, new CBA, looming big extensions for Ant and Jaden, negotiating with Prince and Anderson, UFAs in Reid and NAW right now, no answer at PG beyond Conley, limited draft picks. Moving Gobert just puts the team back to where they were before trading for Gobert and with less assets.

But moving Gobert also closes the book on that chapter. Rudy is not gonna scare you if he's playing for someone else and they make defensive centers with questionable offense every year in drafts. If he's dealt even for crap expirings then at least it puts us on track with the rest of the league instead of a year behind like we always seem to be.

You both made the best arguments for moving one or the other. I agree with WW2813, although I definitely see Future’s point, which Cool has also articulated well in previous posts. I firmly believe we need to move one or the other this summer. The smart move in my view is moving Rudy. I don’t mind resetting back to when we won 46 games. And I don’t think moving Rudy would put take us all with way back to that point. Edwards and Jaden are both better than they were in that 46-win season and will likely be even better next season. We have Slo Mo and Conley - both upgrades over what we had two years ago. Naz is better and re-signing NAW should make us better. And moving Gobert mainly for salary relief would ensure the ability to use the full value of all the salary cap exceptions next year and the year after without running into luxury tax penalties. We would also get SOME meaningful assets (picks or rotation players) in return for Rudy.

I can find a way to agree with some of your points, but I think you're glossing over the two biggest points.

TC, Lore, Arod went all in on Gobert. I see no way they eat the flak this early.

KAT is not a winning player. I don't want to see his bullshit carry onto the rest of the roster. The whining, the offensive fouls, the defensive fouls, the lack of awareness after 8 years, the move away from dominating with his automatic post play into a catch and shoot 3 (no D) and out of control driver, the robot PR interviews, the counting injuries.

A decision has to be made on if this is the Ant show or the KAT show. I believe most already know the right decision.

People shit on Butler because of how he left. But he wasn't wrong. KAT is not the guy. That won't change.

Conley, Ant, Jaden, Gobert is a strong enough core to see the playoffs again.

So is Conley, Ant, Jaden, KAT.

The difference is the amount of assets received to build around Ant in a trade of KAT or Gobert, and one will have to go.

TheFuture wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:31 pm

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:00 pm

WildWolf2813 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:57 pm

But moving Gobert also closes the book on that chapter. Rudy is not gonna scare you if he's playing for someone else and they make defensive centers with questionable offense every year in drafts. If he's dealt even for crap expirings then at least it puts us on track with the rest of the league instead of a year behind like we always seem to be.

You both made the best arguments for moving one or the other. I agree with WW2813, although I definitely see Future’s point, which Cool has also articulated well in previous posts. I firmly believe we need to move one or the other this summer. The smart move in my view is moving Rudy. I don’t mind resetting back to when we won 46 games. And I don’t think moving Rudy would put take us all with way back to that point. Edwards and Jaden are both better than they were in that 46-win season and will likely be even better next season. We have Slo Mo and Conley - both upgrades over what we had two years ago. Naz is better and re-signing NAW should make us better. And moving Gobert mainly for salary relief would ensure the ability to use the full value of all the salary cap exceptions next year and the year after without running into luxury tax penalties. We would also get SOME meaningful assets (picks or rotation players) in return for Rudy.

I can find a way to agree with some of your points, but I think you're glossing over the two biggest points.

TC, Lore, Arod went all in on Gobert. I see no way they eat the flak this early.

KAT is not a winning player. I don't want to see his bullshit carry onto the rest of the roster. The whining, the offensive fouls, the defensive fouls, the lack of awareness after 8 years, the move away from dominating with his automatic post play into a catch and shoot 3 (no D) and out of control driver, the robot PR interviews, the counting injuries.

A decision has to be made on if this is the Ant show or the KAT show. I believe most already know the right decision.

People shit on Butler because of how he left. But he wasn't wrong. KAT is not the guy. That won't change.

Conley, Ant, Jaden, Gobert is a strong enough core to see the playoffs again.

So is Conley, Ant, Jaden, KAT.

The difference is the amount of assets received to build around Ant in a trade of KAT or Gobert, and one will have to go.

That decision has been made already - Ant is the show. But building around Ant doesn't automatically mean KAT has to go. Why does it have to be either/or? Has KAT ever shown any resentment or jealously toward Ant's ascension? In what way has he prevented Ant from having success? Has he slowed his development in some way? I haven't seen it, read it, or heard about it anywhere. It's only fans that seem to come up with this binary "it's Ant or KAT" perspective.

Also, Ant clearly has a hard time getting Rudy the ball when he's rolling to the hoop, whereas making the simple kickout pass to KAT on the pick and pop is a much easier play for him to make. Additionally, KAT's ability to drag bigs out of the paint also helps Ant.

I actually don't have a strong opinion (yet) about which big should be traded, as I can make similar arguments as to why KAT should be traded and Gobert kept. My point is it isn't obvious to me and therefore I think the front office should be open to either scenario. May be even both should be traded!

TheFuture wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:31 pm

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:00 pm

WildWolf2813 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:57 pm

But moving Gobert also closes the book on that chapter. Rudy is not gonna scare you if he's playing for someone else and they make defensive centers with questionable offense every year in drafts. If he's dealt even for crap expirings then at least it puts us on track with the rest of the league instead of a year behind like we always seem to be.

You both made the best arguments for moving one or the other. I agree with WW2813, although I definitely see Future’s point, which Cool has also articulated well in previous posts. I firmly believe we need to move one or the other this summer. The smart move in my view is moving Rudy. I don’t mind resetting back to when we won 46 games. And I don’t think moving Rudy would put take us all with way back to that point. Edwards and Jaden are both better than they were in that 46-win season and will likely be even better next season. We have Slo Mo and Conley - both upgrades over what we had two years ago. Naz is better and re-signing NAW should make us better. And moving Gobert mainly for salary relief would ensure the ability to use the full value of all the salary cap exceptions next year and the year after without running into luxury tax penalties. We would also get SOME meaningful assets (picks or rotation players) in return for Rudy.

I can find a way to agree with some of your points, but I think you're glossing over the two biggest points.

TC, Lore, Arod went all in on Gobert. I see no way they eat the flak this early.

KAT is not a winning player. I don't want to see his bullshit carry onto the rest of the roster. The whining, the offensive fouls, the defensive fouls, the lack of awareness after 8 years, the move away from dominating with his automatic post play into a catch and shoot 3 (no D) and out of control driver, the robot PR interviews, the counting injuries.

A decision has to be made on if this is the Ant show or the KAT show. I believe most already know the right decision.

People shit on Butler because of how he left. But he wasn't wrong. KAT is not the guy. That won't change.

Conley, Ant, Jaden, Gobert is a strong enough core to see the playoffs again.

So is Conley, Ant, Jaden, KAT.

The difference is the amount of assets received to build around Ant in a trade of KAT or Gobert, and one will have to go.

I see you still believe the Jimmy Butler obvious PR spin, even after all this time.

Whether he was right or wrong about Towns being THE guy is irrelevant.

Jimmy Butler left for money reasons. It was 100% about the money.




[Note: And everybody has been on the Edwards Team thing (at least on the court during games) for quite some time now... including Towns and Edwards. Unless we're only talking about money again, because the NBA is definitely the place where money divides teams. We've seen it with Butler. We saw it with Marbury. And it happens on every team.]

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:59 pm

TheFuture wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:31 pm

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:00 pm

You both made the best arguments for moving one or the other. I agree with WW2813, although I definitely see Future’s point, which Cool has also articulated well in previous posts. I firmly believe we need to move one or the other this summer. The smart move in my view is moving Rudy. I don’t mind resetting back to when we won 46 games. And I don’t think moving Rudy would put take us all with way back to that point. Edwards and Jaden are both better than they were in that 46-win season and will likely be even better next season. We have Slo Mo and Conley - both upgrades over what we had two years ago. Naz is better and re-signing NAW should make us better. And moving Gobert mainly for salary relief would ensure the ability to use the full value of all the salary cap exceptions next year and the year after without running into luxury tax penalties. We would also get SOME meaningful assets (picks or rotation players) in return for Rudy.

I can find a way to agree with some of your points, but I think you're glossing over the two biggest points.

TC, Lore, Arod went all in on Gobert. I see no way they eat the flak this early.

KAT is not a winning player. I don't want to see his bullshit carry onto the rest of the roster. The whining, the offensive fouls, the defensive fouls, the lack of awareness after 8 years, the move away from dominating with his automatic post play into a catch and shoot 3 (no D) and out of control driver, the robot PR interviews, the counting injuries.

A decision has to be made on if this is the Ant show or the KAT show. I believe most already know the right decision.

People shit on Butler because of how he left. But he wasn't wrong. KAT is not the guy. That won't change.

Conley, Ant, Jaden, Gobert is a strong enough core to see the playoffs again.

So is Conley, Ant, Jaden, KAT.

The difference is the amount of assets received to build around Ant in a trade of KAT or Gobert, and one will have to go.

That decision has been made already - Ant is the show. But building around Ant doesn't automatically mean KAT has to go. Why does it have to be either/or? Has KAT ever shown any resentment or jealously toward Ant's ascension? In what way has he prevented Ant from having success? Has he slowed his development in some way? I haven't seen it, read it, or heard about it anywhere. It's only fans that seem to come up with this binary "it's Ant or KAT" perspective.

Also, Ant clearly has a hard time getting Rudy the ball when he's rolling to the hoop, whereas making the simple kickout pass to KAT on the pick and pop is a much easier play for him to make. Additionally, KAT's ability to drag bigs out of the paint also helps Ant.

I actually don't have a strong opinion (yet) about which big should be traded, as I can make similar arguments as to why KAT should be traded and Gobert kept. My point is it isn't obvious to me and therefore I think the front office should be open to either scenario. May be even both should be traded!

You’re absolutely right, Q. The refrain about KAT not being the guy is old and moot. KAT no longer is or has to be THE GUY because Ant is clearly the guy. KAT fits really well as a #2 sandwiched between Ant at #1 and Jaden at #3. The only reason to trade KAT is because of the salary cap cliff the Wolves are headed for next summer. And the only reason to trade KAT instead of Rudy is the much bigger return the team would get for KAT - which is the point Cool and some others have made several times.

Does San Antonio need a mentor for Wemby?