Minnesota Sports Forum

60WinTim wrote:Amazing how trade talk and draft picks gets us talking a whole lot more than actually playing basketball... :-(

Well, just to keep the chatter going, looks like Butler is being held out tonight for "illness". Like I believe that one!!!

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Abe, Q, you need to think a little more creatively here. Those assets in the hand of a smart front office with a plan means a hek of a lot more than just picks in the 20's over 7 years. Cam and I have posted about all the avenues having those assets opens up. Remember until the Brooklyn deal, Boston was getting decent but not high lottery picks that they were having trouble turning into stars. Similar to how the Wolves were back in the very early days where we were always drafting just one or two spots from where we needed to be. But you can do a helluva lot with multiple first round picks over multiple years. Ainge has always managed to acquire more high draft assets even when trading one away. There is no blueprint for how exactly this should be done, but for a franchise who looks to have blown another rebuild, this is essentially a get out of jail free card and another golden opportunity to finally build a contender. And it doesn't have to take 7 years. Not when you already have some good pieces in place.

I appreciate the flexibility and "currency" this gives us, but to Abe's point, that doesn't actually mean anything until it translates to a real player or two that can impact the game at a high level. And Houston has every incentive now to stay good and quickly rebuild with vets once this current group ages out.

I would prefer a deal that gives us some mix of young proven players (like JRich), draft assets, and salary filler on shorter deals. The Houston deal gives us no existing proven talent and there is no guarantee it ever will.

And how do they re-tool with no tradeable picks and no cap space? CP3, Jimmy and maybe even Harden are gonna age out before their contracts are up. They're gonna be paying luxury tax for their big 4 a year and possibly two after they are no longer a big 4. They just flat out wouldn't have the resources to fix that mess. And they won't care to desperately fix it either if it gets them a title in the next 2 years.

Maybe Houston is leveraging too much of its future with such a trade. But something tells me that they're not sacrificing everything just yet.

After all, something is working in Houston. They've had a winning record in 31 of the past 34 seasons.

When Morey arrived, it was a Ming + McGrady team. Then it was Aaron Brooks/Kevin Martin/Luis Scola. Then Harden + Parsons. Then Harden + Howard. Then Harden + Paul.

Meanwhile, they did this almost entirely without 1st round draft picks. Only Brooks and Capela really made much impact.

All the while, the Wolves built around multiple #1 draft picks. And we're being told that's the only route that's gonna work... only with much lower picks.

Sorry. I aint buying it. And while Houston is relevant here because they're the trading partner, we could also look at Indiana, Utah, SA, MIlwaukee, et al as other organizations that found ways to be respectable to good without relying heavily on a bevy of 1st rd picks.

Meanwhile, Orlando, MN, Sacramento, et al have been among the biggest champions of the promise of hope campaigns over the years... this side of Philadelphia.

Exactly. Teams don't HAVE to get lottery picks to re-tool and they have proven it time and again, as have other teams. Houston is a big town with a big market and with zero state income taxes. Morey is one of the savviest GMs in the business.

But let's just say Houston does get crappy and we end up getting a lottery pick with, say, their 2023 pick. Most likely that lottery pick will be an 18 or 19 year old that will take a few years to develop, which takes us to around 2026. Exacly where is KAT at that point!? Is he still even with us because that is way beyond his current contract window.

khans2k5 wrote:

crazy-canuck wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

crazy-canuck wrote:If thibs takes this deal, we basically traded 3 lottery picks for 4 picks in the late 20's. And people are loving it?

And you knew that Terrell Owens was going to rip off his Jimmy Butler mask and reveal who he really is?
And lets discuss the "3 lottery picks". Dunn still isn't good and Lavine makes $20m/year. So it becomes one lottery picks for a playoff appearance/win, a pick in the teens, and four picks in the 20's, and maybe more.

Wolves need to get back at least 1 useable player and not just picks.

4 late picks doesnt do anything for us unless we are doing a hard reboot. We need at least 1 young guy that can play right now with Wiggins, KAT, and Okogie. Unfortunately, Chriss is not that guy.

Hopefully this starts a bidding war and we get at least 1 useable player in return.

Houston is not gonna be a playoff team for the next 8 years. They are gonna get old. They are gonna be capped out and if they don't win a title in the next 3-4 years they will need to blow it up because nobody will be left to re-tool a half decent team around. Do you really think a guy who operates in the extremes the way Morey does is going to be fine in the middle when CP3, Harden and Jimmy are in their mid 30's and not contending any more? Again, everyone thought Brooklyn was gonna be a good team with the KG/Pierce trade and they aged out way faster than anyone anticipated and Philly reaped the benefits of a team that aged overnight.

Camden wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Camden wrote:Several times now I've seen competent posters talk about how Houston will quickly rebuild and drive down the value of those last two first-round picks. How do you realistically expect that to happen? In four years (maybe less), the Rockets are not going to be good and they won't have the draft picks nor cap flexibility -- assuming Butler re-signs -- to retool and be good again. Morey will have $145M against the cap in 2021-22 wrapped up in just four players: 36-year old CP3, 33-year old Butler, 32-year old Harden, and 27-year old Capela. Rounding out that roster with a plethora of vet minimum guys and a couple unproven draft picks of their own just sounds like a disaster to me. And that's assuming that foursome stayed relatively healthy, which -- as we know all too well -- is not a given by any means. So, what's the plan? How are the Rockets going to magically be good the next seven years while having next to nothing in terms of resources and aging stars sucking up 90% of their cap?

Buyouts, salary dumps, trades....there are ways to extricate oneself from these deals. How many years will be on each deal in '21-22?

They don't even need all four to stay healthy to be good. They are a 45+ win team with pretty much any two of those players.

Who's taking on $30-40M in salary dump for one player without legitimate assets attached? I mean, we're hearing it might take two first-round picks just to offload Gorgui Dieng and his deal is arguably more manageable than that. And what assets are the Rockets going to even have to attach? Will they continue to mortgage their future by making draft day trades just to offload salary? Seems unrealistic to me, but alright, we'll go with that.

It's wild to me how much respect and credit the Rockets are getting right now, though. This is the same front office that tried to go all-in on an aging Pau Gasol, arguably swung and missed several times in free agency with over-aggressive deals to Omer Asik, Jeremy Lin, and Ryan Anderson -- while losing Chandler Parsons in his prime a year earlier than they needed to. Not to mention losing two impact defenders this past off-season in Trevor Ariza and Luc Mbah a Moute and replacing them with... James Ennis and Carmelo Anthony? This is the front office you're telling me can remain a winning team for seven years?

You get out from bad contracts and bad overall situations by having at least one of two things: tons of draft picks or a ton of cap space. The Rockets will have neither.

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Abe, Q, you need to think a little more creatively here. Those assets in the hand of a smart front office with a plan means a hek of a lot more than just picks in the 20's over 7 years. Cam and I have posted about all the avenues having those assets opens up. Remember until the Brooklyn deal, Boston was getting decent but not high lottery picks that they were having trouble turning into stars. Similar to how the Wolves were back in the very early days where we were always drafting just one or two spots from where we needed to be. But you can do a helluva lot with multiple first round picks over multiple years. Ainge has always managed to acquire more high draft assets even when trading one away. There is no blueprint for how exactly this should be done, but for a franchise who looks to have blown another rebuild, this is essentially a get out of jail free card and another golden opportunity to finally build a contender. And it doesn't have to take 7 years. Not when you already have some good pieces in place.

I appreciate the flexibility and "currency" this gives us, but to Abe's point, that doesn't actually mean anything until it translates to a real player or two that can impact the game at a high level. And Houston has every incentive now to stay good and quickly rebuild with vets once this current group ages out.

I would prefer a deal that gives us some mix of young proven players (like JRich), draft assets, and salary filler on shorter deals. The Houston deal gives us no existing proven talent and there is no guarantee it ever will.

And how do they re-tool with no tradeable picks and no cap space? CP3, Jimmy and maybe even Harden are gonna age out before their contracts are up. They're gonna be paying luxury tax for their big 4 a year and possibly two after they are no longer a big 4. They just flat out wouldn't have the resources to fix that mess. And they won't care to desperately fix it either if it gets them a title in the next 2 years.

Maybe Houston is leveraging too much of its future with such a trade. But something tells me that they're not sacrificing everything just yet.

After all, something is working in Houston. They've had a winning record in 31 of the past 34 seasons.

When Morey arrived, it was a Ming + McGrady team. Then it was Aaron Brooks/Kevin Martin/Luis Scola. Then Harden + Parsons. Then Harden + Howard. Then Harden + Paul.

Meanwhile, they did this almost entirely without 1st round draft picks. Only Brooks and Capela really made much impact.

All the while, the Wolves built around multiple #1 draft picks. And we're being told that's the only route that's gonna work... only with much lower picks.

Sorry. I aint buying it. And while Houston is relevant here because they're the trading partner, we could also look at Indiana, Utah, SA, MIlwaukee, et al as other organizations that found ways to be respectable to good without relying heavily on a bevy of 1st rd picks.

Meanwhile, Orlando, MN, Sacramento, et al have been among the biggest champions of the promise of hope campaigns over the years... this side of Philadelphia.

Exactly. Teams don't HAVE to get lottery picks to re-tool and they have proven it time and again, as have other teams. Houston is a big town with a big market and with zero state income taxes. Morey is one of the savviest GMs in the business.

But let's just say Houston does get crappy and we end up getting a lottery pick with, say, their 2023 pick. Most likely that lottery pick will be an 18 or 19 year old that will take a few years to develop, which takes us to around 2026. Exacly where is KAT at that point!? Is he still even with us because that is way beyond his current contract window.

The Houston deal is bigger than KAT's playing window for us. Do you think Boston cares that Tatum is 7 years younger than Kyrie and a decade younger than their other good players? We can use the cap space and late first round picks to build around KAT. Those last 2 picks aren't designed to support KAT. They're designed to give this team a chance to add a Tatum and be set for life after KAT. Trying to plan out this team around KAT for the next decade is dumb. He hasn't even shown yet that he's worthy of that kind of organizational commitment. This is a chance to put the organization in a good place for a decade with or without KAT. Stop thinking so short term around KAT and just being a playoff team. KAT hasn't earned that level of organizational desperation to keep him and make him the centerpiece for a decade. He could be that guy, but this kind of deal goes beyond him to put the organization in a good place to succeed moving forward.

WildWolf2813 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

crazy-canuck wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

crazy-canuck wrote:If thibs takes this deal, we basically traded 3 lottery picks for 4 picks in the late 20's. And people are loving it?

And you knew that Terrell Owens was going to rip off his Jimmy Butler mask and reveal who he really is?
And lets discuss the "3 lottery picks". Dunn still isn't good and Lavine makes $20m/year. So it becomes one lottery picks for a playoff appearance/win, a pick in the teens, and four picks in the 20's, and maybe more.

Wolves need to get back at least 1 useable player and not just picks.

4 late picks doesnt do anything for us unless we are doing a hard reboot. We need at least 1 young guy that can play right now with Wiggins, KAT, and Okogie. Unfortunately, Chriss is not that guy.

Hopefully this starts a bidding war and we get at least 1 useable player in return.

Houston is not gonna be a playoff team for the next 8 years. They are gonna get old. They are gonna be capped out and if they don't win a title in the next 3-4 years they will need to blow it up because nobody will be left to re-tool a half decent team around. Do you really think a guy who operates in the extremes the way Morey does is going to be fine in the middle when CP3, Harden and Jimmy are in their mid 30's and not contending any more? Again, everyone thought Brooklyn was gonna be a good team with the KG/Pierce trade and they aged out way faster than anyone anticipated and Philly reaped the benefits of a team that aged overnight.

They aged out fast because Deron Williams got fat and fell off the face of the Earth. it was also a shortsighted trade because Brooklyn wanted fans to come to their new arena and take over NYC.

For what it's worth, Brooklyn reached the East semis the first year of that trade. That would be the 2nd best season in franchise history if that were us.

I'm just sick of watching this team try to build with the hope of "maybe this team will fall off soon."

crazy-canuck wrote:Butler questionable tonight.

Og also sitting for no apparent reason.

Maybe masai is making a last minute move.

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

crazy-canuck wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

crazy-canuck wrote:If thibs takes this deal, we basically traded 3 lottery picks for 4 picks in the late 20's. And people are loving it?

And you knew that Terrell Owens was going to rip off his Jimmy Butler mask and reveal who he really is?
And lets discuss the "3 lottery picks". Dunn still isn't good and Lavine makes $20m/year. So it becomes one lottery picks for a playoff appearance/win, a pick in the teens, and four picks in the 20's, and maybe more.

Wolves need to get back at least 1 useable player and not just picks.

4 late picks doesnt do anything for us unless we are doing a hard reboot. We need at least 1 young guy that can play right now with Wiggins, KAT, and Okogie. Unfortunately, Chriss is not that guy.

Hopefully this starts a bidding war and we get at least 1 useable player in return.

Houston is not gonna be a playoff team for the next 8 years. They are gonna get old. They are gonna be capped out and if they don't win a title in the next 3-4 years they will need to blow it up because nobody will be left to re-tool a half decent team around. Do you really think a guy who operates in the extremes the way Morey does is going to be fine in the middle when CP3, Harden and Jimmy are in their mid 30's and not contending any more? Again, everyone thought Brooklyn was gonna be a good team with the KG/Pierce trade and they aged out way faster than anyone anticipated and Philly reaped the benefits of a team that aged overnight.

They aged out fast because Deron Williams got fat and fell off the face of the Earth. it was also a shortsighted trade because Brooklyn wanted fans to come to their new arena and take over NYC.

For what it's worth, Brooklyn reached the East semis the first year of that trade. That would be the 2nd best season in franchise history if that were us.

I'm just sick of watching this team try to build with the hope of "maybe this team will fall off soon."

I'm sick of it as well, but this is Butler's fault. No way MIN trades the #7 pick if Butler tells MIN "Oh, by the way, I'm actually Terrell Owens."

Q12543 wrote:

crazy-canuck wrote:Butler questionable tonight.

Og also sitting for no apparent reason.

Maybe masai is making a last minute move.

Butler/Leonard is a nightmarish wing pairing for opposing teams and they can switch everything. I'm surprised there hasn't been more buzz around Toronto.

Q12543 wrote:

Camden wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Camden wrote:Several times now I've seen competent posters talk about how Houston will quickly rebuild and drive down the value of those last two first-round picks. How do you realistically expect that to happen? In four years (maybe less), the Rockets are not going to be good and they won't have the draft picks nor cap flexibility -- assuming Butler re-signs -- to retool and be good again. Morey will have $145M against the cap in 2021-22 wrapped up in just four players: 36-year old CP3, 33-year old Butler, 32-year old Harden, and 27-year old Capela. Rounding out that roster with a plethora of vet minimum guys and a couple unproven draft picks of their own just sounds like a disaster to me. And that's assuming that foursome stayed relatively healthy, which -- as we know all too well -- is not a given by any means. So, what's the plan? How are the Rockets going to magically be good the next seven years while having next to nothing in terms of resources and aging stars sucking up 90% of their cap?

Buyouts, salary dumps, trades....there are ways to extricate oneself from these deals. How many years will be on each deal in '21-22?

They don't even need all four to stay healthy to be good. They are a 45+ win team with pretty much any two of those players.

Who's taking on $30-40M in salary dump for one player without legitimate assets attached? I mean, we're hearing it might take two first-round picks just to offload Gorgui Dieng and his deal is arguably more manageable than that. And what assets are the Rockets going to even have to attach? Will they continue to mortgage their future by making draft day trades just to offload salary? Seems unrealistic to me, but alright, we'll go with that.

It's wild to me how much respect and credit the Rockets are getting right now, though. This is the same front office that tried to go all-in on an aging Pau Gasol, arguably swung and missed several times in free agency with over-aggressive deals to Omer Asik, Jeremy Lin, and Ryan Anderson -- while losing Chandler Parsons in his prime a year earlier than they needed to. Not to mention losing two impact defenders this past off-season in Trevor Ariza and Luc Mbah a Moute and replacing them with... James Ennis and Carmelo Anthony? This is the front office you're telling me can remain a winning team for seven years?

You get out from bad contracts and bad overall situations by having at least one of two things: tons of draft picks or a ton of cap space. The Rockets will have neither.

Right, and with all those crappy moves Houston has made they haven't lost less than 34 games since practically the last century. By the time one of these picks is worth anything, our franchise will be in Seattle and KAT will be in Brooklyn.