Minnesota Sports Forum

Camden wrote:Jason wants seven second-round picks and all of the bread pudding. Final offer.

Poutine and Tim Horton's crawlers.

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I'm not a big fan of Jason's proposed trade.

But if the Wolves hold out for one more 2nd rounder in 2076... I'm all in.

Can only go seven years ahead. A recent change from five. But please, lets complain about 4 firsts not being enough, and then turn around and say 2nd rounders are too much. Make perfect sense.

But who the fuck said any of that?

Camden wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I'm not a big fan of Jason's proposed trade.

But if the Wolves hold out for one more 2nd rounder in 2076... I'm all in.

Can only go seven years ahead. A recent change from five. But please, lets complain about 4 firsts not being enough, and then turn around and say 2nd rounders are too much. Make perfect sense.

But who the fuck said any of that?

So no one has said four 1sts from HOU is not enough? Now who's not paying attention?

Yep angry Jason is back with the insults and obscure references that we're all too dumb to understand.

BizarroJerry wrote:Yep angry Jason is back with the insults and obscure references that we're all too dumb to understand.

Your avatar is a character that appeared twice on a sitcom that's been off the air almost 20 years. Maybe settle down there hipster.

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

Camden wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I'm not a big fan of Jason's proposed trade.

But if the Wolves hold out for one more 2nd rounder in 2076... I'm all in.

Can only go seven years ahead. A recent change from five. But please, lets complain about 4 firsts not being enough, and then turn around and say 2nd rounders are too much. Make perfect sense.

But who the fuck said any of that?

So no one has said four 1sts from HOU is not enough? Now who's not paying attention?

"But please, lets complain about 4 firsts not being enough, and then turn around and say 2nd rounders are too much."

Holy shit, this is insanity. It's like you're trying to be the smartest guy in the room but you're not really grasping anything that's being said. Am I talking to JaVale McGee right now?

WildWolf2813 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Abe, Q, you need to think a little more creatively here. Those assets in the hand of a smart front office with a plan means a hek of a lot more than just picks in the 20's over 7 years. Cam and I have posted about all the avenues having those assets opens up. Remember until the Brooklyn deal, Boston was getting decent but not high lottery picks that they were having trouble turning into stars. Similar to how the Wolves were back in the very early days where we were always drafting just one or two spots from where we needed to be. But you can do a helluva lot with multiple first round picks over multiple years. Ainge has always managed to acquire more high draft assets even when trading one away. There is no blueprint for how exactly this should be done, but for a franchise who looks to have blown another rebuild, this is essentially a get out of jail free card and another golden opportunity to finally build a contender. And it doesn't have to take 7 years. Not when you already have some good pieces in place.

I appreciate the flexibility and "currency" this gives us, but to Abe's point, that doesn't actually mean anything until it translates to a real player or two that can impact the game at a high level. And Houston has every incentive now to stay good and quickly rebuild with vets once this current group ages out.

I would prefer a deal that gives us some mix of young proven players (like JRich), draft assets, and salary filler on shorter deals. The Houston deal gives us no existing proven talent and there is no guarantee it ever will.

And how do they re-tool with no tradeable picks and no cap space? CP3, Jimmy and maybe even Harden are gonna age out before their contracts are up. They're gonna be paying luxury tax for their big 4 a year and possibly two after they are no longer a big 4. They just flat out wouldn't have the resources to fix that mess. And they won't care to desperately fix it either if it gets them a title in the next 2 years.

Maybe Houston is leveraging too much of its future with such a trade. But something tells me that they're not sacrificing everything just yet.

After all, something is working in Houston. They've had a winning record in 31 of the past 34 seasons.

When Morey arrived, it was a Ming + McGrady team. Then it was Aaron Brooks/Kevin Martin/Luis Scola. Then Harden + Parsons. Then Harden + Howard. Then Harden + Paul.

Meanwhile, they did this almost entirely without 1st round draft picks. Only Brooks and Capela really made much impact.

All the while, the Wolves built around multiple #1 draft picks. And we're being told that's the only route that's gonna work... only with much lower picks.

Sorry. I aint buying it. And while Houston is relevant here because they're the trading partner, we could also look at Indiana, Utah, SA, MIlwaukee, et al as other organizations that found ways to be respectable to good without relying heavily on a bevy of 1st rd picks.

Meanwhile, Orlando, MN, Sacramento, et al have been among the biggest champions of the promise of hope campaigns over the years... this side of Philadelphia.

Exactly. Teams don't HAVE to get lottery picks to re-tool and they have proven it time and again, as have other teams. Houston is a big town with a big market and with zero state income taxes. Morey is one of the savviest GMs in the business.

But let's just say Houston does get crappy and we end up getting a lottery pick with, say, their 2023 pick. Most likely that lottery pick will be an 18 or 19 year old that will take a few years to develop, which takes us to around 2026. Exacly where is KAT at that point!? Is he still even with us because that is way beyond his current contract window.

The Houston deal is bigger than KAT's playing window for us. Do you think Boston cares that Tatum is 7 years younger than Kyrie and a decade younger than their other good players? We can use the cap space and late first round picks to build around KAT. Those last 2 picks aren't designed to support KAT. They're designed to give this team a chance to add a Tatum and be set for life after KAT. Trying to plan out this team around KAT for the next decade is dumb. He hasn't even shown yet that he's worthy of that kind of organizational commitment. This is a chance to put the organization in a good place for a decade with or without KAT. Stop thinking so short term around KAT and just being a playoff team. KAT hasn't earned that level of organizational desperation to keep him and make him the centerpiece for a decade. He could be that guy, but this kind of deal goes beyond him to put the organization in a good place to succeed moving forward.

If that's the case, so be it, but then this team is all but useless for the next 5+ years and they're back at nothing. Again. With no indication that we're ever gonna have the personnel necessary to see it through correctly.

The payoff for all the suffering isn't even worth it anymore.

I mean that possibility he always been there. We've literally seen this situation play out before with Kevin Love. That's why you make moves in the best interest of the organization and not just around one guy who hasn't proven yet that he can be the centerpiece of a good team. If you put pieces around KAT to be a contender and he isn't that guys you're back at the bottom anyway so why full commit to that when you can still build around him with some parts of the trade, but also potentially provide a huge boost to the franchise 7 years down the line?

We can't get 80-90% of Josh Richardson with cap space and a late first round pick to trade without taking back another bad salary? And then have 3 more first round picks on top of that. You can't have it both ways of a Houston trade means rebuilding forever while a Josh Richardson trade means we're all of a sudden a perennial playoff team. JR isn't a franchise changer of that magnitude. He's a solid piece on a good contract. We can get that level of player in free agency with an overpay or trade for it with a late first round pick. Hell we may already have that guy on the team in Okogie. There seems to be a narrative that KAT is that guy with JR, but not with the Houston scenario and the fact is he's gonna be the same guy in both scenarios so which gives you a better chance to build around him and that's the Houston trade.

Camden wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

Camden wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I'm not a big fan of Jason's proposed trade.

But if the Wolves hold out for one more 2nd rounder in 2076... I'm all in.

Can only go seven years ahead. A recent change from five. But please, lets complain about 4 firsts not being enough, and then turn around and say 2nd rounders are too much. Make perfect sense.

But who the fuck said any of that?

So no one has said four 1sts from HOU is not enough? Now who's not paying attention?

"But please, lets complain about 4 firsts not being enough, and then turn around and say 2nd rounders are too much."

Holy shit, this is insanity. It's like you're trying to be the smartest guy in the room but you're not really grasping anything that's being said. Am I talking to JaVale McGee right now?

What is your deal? You come on here and single me out, using curse words because your 8th grade education education hasn't taught you any others, because you don't like my trade idea? Move on. I did. And where's your idea? Maybe blow us all away with that so I'll be too embarrassed to post anything else.

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I'm not a big fan of Jason's proposed trade.

But if the Wolves hold out for one more 2nd rounder in 2076... I'm all in.

Can only go seven years ahead. A recent change from five. But please, lets complain about 4 firsts not being enough, and then turn around and say 2nd rounders are too much. Make perfect sense.

Ok. Ok.

If you throw in three dozen Timbe

khans2k5 wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Abe, Q, you need to think a little more creatively here. Those assets in the hand of a smart front office with a plan means a hek of a lot more than just picks in the 20's over 7 years. Cam and I have posted about all the avenues having those assets opens up. Remember until the Brooklyn deal, Boston was getting decent but not high lottery picks that they were having trouble turning into stars. Similar to how the Wolves were back in the very early days where we were always drafting just one or two spots from where we needed to be. But you can do a helluva lot with multiple first round picks over multiple years. Ainge has always managed to acquire more high draft assets even when trading one away. There is no blueprint for how exactly this should be done, but for a franchise who looks to have blown another rebuild, this is essentially a get out of jail free card and another golden opportunity to finally build a contender. And it doesn't have to take 7 years. Not when you already have some good pieces in place.

I appreciate the flexibility and "currency" this gives us, but to Abe's point, that doesn't actually mean anything until it translates to a real player or two that can impact the game at a high level. And Houston has every incentive now to stay good and quickly rebuild with vets once this current group ages out.

I would prefer a deal that gives us some mix of young proven players (like JRich), draft assets, and salary filler on shorter deals. The Houston deal gives us no existing proven talent and there is no guarantee it ever will.

And how do they re-tool with no tradeable picks and no cap space? CP3, Jimmy and maybe even Harden are gonna age out before their contracts are up. They're gonna be paying luxury tax for their big 4 a year and possibly two after they are no longer a big 4. They just flat out wouldn't have the resources to fix that mess. And they won't care to desperately fix it either if it gets them a title in the next 2 years.

Maybe Houston is leveraging too much of its future with such a trade. But something tells me that they're not sacrificing everything just yet.

After all, something is working in Houston. They've had a winning record in 31 of the past 34 seasons.

When Morey arrived, it was a Ming + McGrady team. Then it was Aaron Brooks/Kevin Martin/Luis Scola. Then Harden + Parsons. Then Harden + Howard. Then Harden + Paul.

Meanwhile, they did this almost entirely without 1st round draft picks. Only Brooks and Capela really made much impact.

All the while, the Wolves built around multiple #1 draft picks. And we're being told that's the only route that's gonna work... only with much lower picks.

Sorry. I aint buying it. And while Houston is relevant here because they're the trading partner, we could also look at Indiana, Utah, SA, MIlwaukee, et al as other organizations that found ways to be respectable to good without relying heavily on a bevy of 1st rd picks.

Meanwhile, Orlando, MN, Sacramento, et al have been among the biggest champions of the promise of hope campaigns over the years... this side of Philadelphia.

Exactly. Teams don't HAVE to get lottery picks to re-tool and they have proven it time and again, as have other teams. Houston is a big town with a big market and with zero state income taxes. Morey is one of the savviest GMs in the business.

But let's just say Houston does get crappy and we end up getting a lottery pick with, say, their 2023 pick. Most likely that lottery pick will be an 18 or 19 year old that will take a few years to develop, which takes us to around 2026. Exacly where is KAT at that point!? Is he still even with us because that is way beyond his current contract window.

The Houston deal is bigger than KAT's playing window for us. Do you think Boston cares that Tatum is 7 years younger than Kyrie and a decade younger than their other good players? We can use the cap space and late first round picks to build around KAT. Those last 2 picks aren't designed to support KAT. They're designed to give this team a chance to add a Tatum and be set for life after KAT. Trying to plan out this team around KAT for the next decade is dumb. He hasn't even shown yet that he's worthy of that kind of organizational commitment. This is a chance to put the organization in a good place for a decade with or without KAT. Stop thinking so short term around KAT and just being a playoff team. KAT hasn't earned that level of organizational desperation to keep him and make him the centerpiece for a decade. He could be that guy, but this kind of deal goes beyond him to put the organization in a good place to succeed moving forward.

If that's the case, so be it, but then this team is all but useless for the next 5+ years and they're back at nothing. Again. With no indication that we're ever gonna have the personnel necessary to see it through correctly.

The payoff for all the suffering isn't even worth it anymore.

I mean that possibility he always been there. We've literally seen this situation play out before with Kevin Love. That's why you make moves in the best interest of the organization and not just around one guy who hasn't proven yet that he can be the centerpiece of a good team. If you put pieces around KAT to be a contender and he isn't that guys you're back at the bottom anyway so why full commit to that when you can still build around him with some parts of the trade, but also potentially provide a huge boost to the franchise 7 years down the line?

We can't get 80-90% of Josh Richardson with cap space and a late first round pick to trade without taking back another bad salary? And then have 3 more first round picks on top of that. You can't have it both ways of a Houston trade means rebuilding forever while a Josh Richardson trade means we're all of a sudden a perennial playoff team. JR isn't a franchise changer of that magnitude. He's a solid piece on a good contract. We can get that level of player in free agency with an overpay or trade for it with a late first round pick. Hell we may already have that guy on the team in Okogie. There seems to be a narrative that KAT is that guy with JR, but not with the Houston scenario and the fact is he's gonna be the same guy in both scenarios so which gives you a better chance to build around him and that's the Houston trade.

I'm extremely skeptical that the Wolves can get a Josh Richardson type of player, with as much proven ability, with a "favorable" longer contract for a late 1st round pick.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:I'm not a big fan of Jason's proposed trade.

But if the Wolves hold out for one more 2nd rounder in 2076... I'm all in.

Can only go seven years ahead. A recent change from five. But please, lets complain about 4 firsts not being enough, and then turn around and say 2nd rounders are too much. Make perfect sense.

Ok. Ok.

If you throw in three dozen Timbe

khans2k5 wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Abe, Q, you need to think a little more creatively here. Those assets in the hand of a smart front office with a plan means a hek of a lot more than just picks in the 20's over 7 years. Cam and I have posted about all the avenues having those assets opens up. Remember until the Brooklyn deal, Boston was getting decent but not high lottery picks that they were having trouble turning into stars. Similar to how the Wolves were back in the very early days where we were always drafting just one or two spots from where we needed to be. But you can do a helluva lot with multiple first round picks over multiple years. Ainge has always managed to acquire more high draft assets even when trading one away. There is no blueprint for how exactly this should be done, but for a franchise who looks to have blown another rebuild, this is essentially a get out of jail free card and another golden opportunity to finally build a contender. And it doesn't have to take 7 years. Not when you already have some good pieces in place.

I appreciate the flexibility and "currency" this gives us, but to Abe's point, that doesn't actually mean anything until it translates to a real player or two that can impact the game at a high level. And Houston has every incentive now to stay good and quickly rebuild with vets once this current group ages out.

I would prefer a deal that gives us some mix of young proven players (like JRich), draft assets, and salary filler on shorter deals. The Houston deal gives us no existing proven talent and there is no guarantee it ever will.

And how do they re-tool with no tradeable picks and no cap space? CP3, Jimmy and maybe even Harden are gonna age out before their contracts are up. They're gonna be paying luxury tax for their big 4 a year and possibly two after they are no longer a big 4. They just flat out wouldn't have the resources to fix that mess. And they won't care to desperately fix it either if it gets them a title in the next 2 years.

Maybe Houston is leveraging too much of its future with such a trade. But something tells me that they're not sacrificing everything just yet.

After all, something is working in Houston. They've had a winning record in 31 of the past 34 seasons.

When Morey arrived, it was a Ming + McGrady team. Then it was Aaron Brooks/Kevin Martin/Luis Scola. Then Harden + Parsons. Then Harden + Howard. Then Harden + Paul.

Meanwhile, they did this almost entirely without 1st round draft picks. Only Brooks and Capela really made much impact.

All the while, the Wolves built around multiple #1 draft picks. And we're being told that's the only route that's gonna work... only with much lower picks.

Sorry. I aint buying it. And while Houston is relevant here because they're the trading partner, we could also look at Indiana, Utah, SA, MIlwaukee, et al as other organizations that found ways to be respectable to good without relying heavily on a bevy of 1st rd picks.

Meanwhile, Orlando, MN, Sacramento, et al have been among the biggest champions of the promise of hope campaigns over the years... this side of Philadelphia.

Exactly. Teams don't HAVE to get lottery picks to re-tool and they have proven it time and again, as have other teams. Houston is a big town with a big market and with zero state income taxes. Morey is one of the savviest GMs in the business.

But let's just say Houston does get crappy and we end up getting a lottery pick with, say, their 2023 pick. Most likely that lottery pick will be an 18 or 19 year old that will take a few years to develop, which takes us to around 2026. Exacly where is KAT at that point!? Is he still even with us because that is way beyond his current contract window.

The Houston deal is bigger than KAT's playing window for us. Do you think Boston cares that Tatum is 7 years younger than Kyrie and a decade younger than their other good players? We can use the cap space and late first round picks to build around KAT. Those last 2 picks aren't designed to support KAT. They're designed to give this team a chance to add a Tatum and be set for life after KAT. Trying to plan out this team around KAT for the next decade is dumb. He hasn't even shown yet that he's worthy of that kind of organizational commitment. This is a chance to put the organization in a good place for a decade with or without KAT. Stop thinking so short term around KAT and just being a playoff team. KAT hasn't earned that level of organizational desperation to keep him and make him the centerpiece for a decade. He could be that guy, but this kind of deal goes beyond him to put the organization in a good place to succeed moving forward.

If that's the case, so be it, but then this team is all but useless for the next 5+ years and they're back at nothing. Again. With no indication that we're ever gonna have the personnel necessary to see it through correctly.

The payoff for all the suffering isn't even worth it anymore.

I mean that possibility he always been there. We've literally seen this situation play out before with Kevin Love. That's why you make moves in the best interest of the organization and not just around one guy who hasn't proven yet that he can be the centerpiece of a good team. If you put pieces around KAT to be a contender and he isn't that guys you're back at the bottom anyway so why full commit to that when you can still build around him with some parts of the trade, but also potentially provide a huge boost to the franchise 7 years down the line?

We can't get 80-90% of Josh Richardson with cap space and a late first round pick to trade without taking back another bad salary? And then have 3 more first round picks on top of that. You can't have it both ways of a Houston trade means rebuilding forever while a Josh Richardson trade means we're all of a sudden a perennial playoff team. JR isn't a franchise changer of that magnitude. He's a solid piece on a good contract. We can get that level of player in free agency with an overpay or trade for it with a late first round pick. Hell we may already have that guy on the team in Okogie. There seems to be a narrative that KAT is that guy with JR, but not with the Houston scenario and the fact is he's gonna be the same guy in both scenarios so which gives you a better chance to build around him and that's the Houston trade.

I'm extremely skeptical that the Wolves can get a Josh Richardson type of player, with as much proven ability, with a "favorable" longer contract for a late 1st round pick.

I agree. I would love a MIA trade whose framework centers around JB/JP for JR/KO/Enough picks as to be better than the HOU offer but not so many as to cause consternation among the basketball-litteratti.