OT - Making Sense of Tragedy

[AbeVigodaLive]

Good posts here on this. These media specials, "a nation divided" and such are not helping either. They're pumping up these looting scenes.

We're losing objective thinkers to solve big problems. We retreat to our corners when these things happen.

Yup!! 100%. Controversy and outrage gets clicks and views and re-tweets. So the Fox news videos will focus on looters and rogue protesters while the MSNBC ones will focus on abusive cops. Both will give only small air-time to the other abuses because it won't play well with the narrative their loyal audience prefers.

And that trickles down to the populace -- whether a message board poster, hipster guy, old guy waving his fist from his lawn or the lady next to you in the grocery store -- going to their corners. You can go anywhere... and the liberals are showing only police violence... and the conservatives are showing only looting.

I remember seeing a not a couple years ago about there being 10% people on the alt right... and about 10% on the alt left dominating all the conversations even though about 80% of us don't agree with either side. That's how I looked at it.

But what happens when you normalize those 10% in the margins as much as we have for as long as we have?

We might be reaching that place now. It's good for business. And it's easier for people to simply join a tribe. I don't know how we swing back to something more civil -- especially not in a time when simply being a "conservative/Republican" makes you a "terrible racist person" to tens of millions of people instantly without any discourse with you. Likewise, how being gay or even black makes you a lesser person to so many people.

Civility and pragmatism is a sign of weakness. Sadly.

But it will win in the end... but just how much water will we need to take on first before we get it?

Maybe if we knew why this happened we could get through it. IMO one of the things that drives this type of behavior is all of us have had experiences that made us at the very least wary of something like that again. How many folks here are skeptical of the Wolves because of what has happened in the past? Anyone here have a bad experience with religion? Abuse? A mechanic shop that really screwed you over? A restaurant you will absolutely never go back to? People tend to have some sort of trauma or at the very least negative experience that makes them react poorly the next time. Maybe the reason someone is reacting negatively isn't massive but maybe it's a bunch of little things that built up over time.

Meanwhile IMHO in America until MAYBE the past 10-20 years you were mostly just supposed to move on with your life When bad things happened. If you are religious pray and all will be well. These approaches don't tend to work. People have shit they have experienced and some have never truly processed it. It's been just a few years now that abuse is now more out in the open. It's seemed that society has changed when it comes to that. To me one of the things that feeds into people getting upset and jumping to a quick conclusion is a thing or many things in the past that have not been dealt with at all. In America It's more do if yourself be independent Etc etc. I'm very independent myself I like to try and do things on my own. It's great...but sometimes I'd be better off asking for help. I also have parts of my life I'm really co-dependent too. People need space to be able to really talk about their thoughts feeling and opinions. That's not encouraged in so many spheres of our lives in my experience. Not everyone needs to go see a psychologist or counselor but it should probably be more utilized. That's not a cure all either. Finding the right mental health professional (sometimes people select a therapist that feeds into the problem instead of helps) can be difficult. There should be more education on these types of things how to talk to each other. That's Admittedly a long game.

Next you have the fact that nearly everyone Wants to be a part of a community. Why are we in this forum posting about one of the worst franchises in pro sports? Why are we posting in this thread right now? People want to be part of something. I tend to wonder where the line is between someone being a part of an organization or community and when it becomes an actual cult. Watching various cult documentaries (my wife likes this sort of thing) It seems like at times the line is pretty thin. So you have pyramid schemes, political parties, recreational sports leagues, churches, volunteer organizations...the list goes on of ways people can be a part of something. In times like these (not to mention COVID conditions) I think that desire can ramp up even more. Find a side be a part of something. That doesn't mean it's bad to be a part of an organization. We all know that being a part of a great organization, company, or some type of community (even if it's just a few people) can be wonderful and very gratifying. At some people when people are hurting they will need some sort of community to help them get back going. It can be pretty difficult to do it on our own.

It's basically been said in a few different ways already in this thread and I've said this on the forum multiple times but critical thinking isn't really taught in the country. There isn't a skill that's fostered and/or people don't really know how to search for and interpret information. A few years ago in a previous job I was working with some HS students helping them work towards transition from HS to college or whatever their path was. When asked to do a simple web search most didn't even know how to find a college or university website. There are a lot of systems that need some work...

I think I see where you're going.

I saw one interview with a group of home and business owners who were out night after night pleading with protestors/rioters to spare their block.

It worked. I'm pretty sure it's because those rioters could put faces to the destruction.

_______

That being said... it's easier for a black person to put a face to the George Floyds of the world. After all, if you go by anecdotal evidence, many have their own stories of racism. They can quite easily put a face to Floyd compared to a white guy in Deephaven or Wayzata who can't even imagine being on that part of Lake Street... or trying to cash a counterfeit check... or having drugs in his system... or most of all... being a black man in society.

I try to look at both sides of issues. That old "walk a mile in their shoes" take. Race relations is one of the areas where it doesn't really work. I don't know what it's like to be black. I'll never know.

Occasionally, I'll see it. For example, bringing a 6'4" basketball teammate to a Cross Lake bar. If there was a record player in there... it would have screeched to a stop. We found it amusing at the time. But was it for my friend who grew up in Anoka as the token black kid and experienced those stares quite regularly?

He played it off. But I don't know and I can't know how he really felt... or the toll such a simple moment takes on a person.

[TAFKASP]

The majority of people here like stats when applied to basketball, the truth is in the numbers. Justice is supposed to be blind, we see that image outside of most courthouses in the western world. Justice is disproportionately applied to people of color. Its in the numbers plain and simple. People of color are killed at a much greater rate by police. It is a perversion of justice that follows racial lines, and a product of a racist society, all good intentions aside.

There is an old saying, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics". Stats can tell whatever story you want based upon which stats you choose to present.

Yes black men are killed by cops in numbers greater than their percentage of the population. But they're also killed less when viewed by percentage of crime committed by their race. Now before I'm called racist for pointing out that statistic remember the vast majority of violent crime is committed intraracially so the majority of their victims are also black.

None of that alleviates the need for law enforcement to be better, a lot better! George Floyd should still be alive today as should many other people of all races.

.

Yes crime stats (including violent crime) follow along racial lines too. That stat only reinforces a that racism is embedded in our society beyond policing.

Please explain the bolded.

[Monster]

Good posts here on this. These media specials, "a nation divided" and such are not helping either. They're pumping up these looting scenes.

We're losing objective thinkers to solve big problems. We retreat to our corners when these things happen.

Yup!! 100%. Controversy and outrage gets clicks and views and re-tweets. So the Fox news videos will focus on looters and rogue protesters while the MSNBC ones will focus on abusive cops. Both will give only small air-time to the other abuses because it won't play well with the narrative their loyal audience prefers.

And that trickles down to the populace -- whether a message board poster, hipster guy, old guy waving his fist from his lawn or the lady next to you in the grocery store -- going to their corners. You can go anywhere... and the liberals are showing only police violence... and the conservatives are showing only looting.

I remember seeing a not a couple years ago about there being 10% people on the alt right... and about 10% on the alt left dominating all the conversations even though about 80% of us don't agree with either side. That's how I looked at it.

But what happens when you normalize those 10% in the margins as much as we have for as long as we have?

We might be reaching that place now. It's good for business. And it's easier for people to simply join a tribe. I don't know how we swing back to something more civil -- especially not in a time when simply being a "conservative/Republican" makes you a "terrible racist person" to tens of millions of people instantly without any discourse with you. Likewise, how being gay or even black makes you a lesser person to so many people.

Civility and pragmatism is a sign of weakness. Sadly.

But it will win in the end... but just how much water will we need to take on first before we get it?

Maybe if we knew why this happened we could get through it. IMO one of the things that drives this type of behavior is all of us have had experiences that made us at the very least wary of something like that again. How many folks here are skeptical of the Wolves because of what has happened in the past? Anyone here have a bad experience with religion? Abuse? A mechanic shop that really screwed you over? A restaurant you will absolutely never go back to? People tend to have some sort of trauma or at the very least negative experience that makes them react poorly the next time. Maybe the reason someone is reacting negatively isn't massive but maybe it's a bunch of little things that built up over time.

Meanwhile IMHO in America until MAYBE the past 10-20 years you were mostly just supposed to move on with your life When bad things happened. If you are religious pray and all will be well. These approaches don't tend to work. People have shit they have experienced and some have never truly processed it. It's been just a few years now that abuse is now more out in the open. It's seemed that society has changed when it comes to that. To me one of the things that feeds into people getting upset and jumping to a quick conclusion is a thing or many things in the past that have not been dealt with at all. In America It's more do if yourself be independent Etc etc. I'm very independent myself I like to try and do things on my own. It's great...but sometimes I'd be better off asking for help. I also have parts of my life I'm really co-dependent too. People need space to be able to really talk about their thoughts feeling and opinions. That's not encouraged in so many spheres of our lives in my experience. Not everyone needs to go see a psychologist or counselor but it should probably be more utilized. That's not a cure all either. Finding the right mental health professional (sometimes people select a therapist that feeds into the problem instead of helps) can be difficult. There should be more education on these types of things how to talk to each other. That's Admittedly a long game.

Next you have the fact that nearly everyone Wants to be a part of a community. Why are we in this forum posting about one of the worst franchises in pro sports? Why are we posting in this thread right now? People want to be part of something. I tend to wonder where the line is between someone being a part of an organization or community and when it becomes an actual cult. Watching various cult documentaries (my wife likes this sort of thing) It seems like at times the line is pretty thin. So you have pyramid schemes, political parties, recreational sports leagues, churches, volunteer organizations...the list goes on of ways people can be a part of something. In times like these (not to mention COVID conditions) I think that desire can ramp up even more. Find a side be a part of something. That doesn't mean it's bad to be a part of an organization. We all know that being a part of a great organization, company, or some type of community (even if it's just a few people) can be wonderful and very gratifying. At some people when people are hurting they will need some sort of community to help them get back going. It can be pretty difficult to do it on our own.

It's basically been said in a few different ways already in this thread and I've said this on the forum multiple times but critical thinking isn't really taught in the country. There isn't a skill that's fostered and/or people don't really know how to search for and interpret information. A few years ago in a previous job I was working with some HS students helping them work towards transition from HS to college or whatever their path was. When asked to do a simple web search most didn't even know how to find a college or university website. There are a lot of systems that need some work...

I think I see where you're going.

I saw one interview with a group of home and business owners who were out night after night pleading with protestors/rioters to spare their block.

It worked. I'm pretty sure it's because those rioters could put faces to the destruction.

_______

That being said... it's easier for a black person to put a face to the George Floyds of the world. After all, if you go by anecdotal evidence, many have their own stories of racism. They can quite easily put a face to Floyd compared to a white guy in Deephaven or Wayzata who can't even imagine being on that part of Lake Street... or trying to cash a counterfeit check... or having drugs in his system... or most of all... being a black man in society.

I try to look at both sides of issues. That old "walk a mile in their shoes" take. Race relations is one of the areas where it doesn't really work. I don't know what it's like to be black. I'll never know.

Occasionally, I'll see it. For example, bringing a 6'4" basketball teammate to a Cross Lake bar. If there was a record player in there... it would have screeched to a stop. We found it amusing at the time. But was it for my friend who grew up in Anoka as the token black kid and experienced those stares quite regularly?

He played it off. But I don't know and I can't know how he really felt... or the toll such a simple moment takes on a person.

Some good points here. That's why listening to other's stories is so worthwhile. I think Trying to walk a mile in others shoes is part of why some folks are really jumping full into the Black Lives Matter. Not only do they want change And/or outraged And/or sad but I think they do want to try and really understand and right now this gives them maybe more of Chance to do that than they did before...and be a part of something.

My friend who is Hispanic was telling some stories about little things he notices that he termed micro aggressions. He probably jokes about race about as anyone I know so he isn't wildly over sensitive or something but he has said there are little things he notices and of course he has observed and been a part of some more obvious things too. I lived in a bunch of different places growing up so it's interesting to hear various experiences he has had partly because he usually has something funny to say about it.

Your experience walking into that bar reminds me of our senior class trip in the mid 90's we drove down to stay at a camp in Florida in vans. During the trip we stopped at a gas station which was in the middle of nowhere in Kentucky. We went in to get snacks, go to the bathroom, walk around a bit etc. One of my classmates is Filipino who grew up in Canada. I don't remember now over 20 years later exactly why a few people In my class called him "porter" but I don't remember it seeming to be a negative thing (Understood at the time it could have been) And it never seemed like an actual put down or anything...but yeah might not have been the best. My friend never seemed bother by it but idk like you said we don't know. Anyhow in this Kentucky gas station we gathered around and someone used the nickname "Porter" referring to our classmate and some local guy looked right at us and said "That's right, that's the way it's supposed be." We laughed it off at first but after just a couple seconds...It sort of hit all of us more...and we all wanted to get the heck out of there.

[thedoper]

The majority of people here like stats when applied to basketball, the truth is in the numbers. Justice is supposed to be blind, we see that image outside of most courthouses in the western world. Justice is disproportionately applied to people of color. Its in the numbers plain and simple. People of color are killed at a much greater rate by police. It is a perversion of justice that follows racial lines, and a product of a racist society, all good intentions aside.

There is an old saying, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics". Stats can tell whatever story you want based upon which stats you choose to present.

Yes black men are killed by cops in numbers greater than their percentage of the population. But they're also killed less when viewed by percentage of crime committed by their race. Now before I'm called racist for pointing out that statistic remember the vast majority of violent crime is committed intraracially so the majority of their victims are also black.

None of that alleviates the need for law enforcement to be better, a lot better! George Floyd should still be alive today as should many other people of all races.

.

Yes crime stats (including violent crime) follow along racial lines too. That stat only reinforces a that racism is embedded in our society beyond policing.

Please explain the bolded.

Easy, if one subsection defined by race of society is involved in crime (both as victims and perpetrators) at a higher rate then the rest of society there are likely factors contributing to that statistic. Most common factors linked statistically to that are usually low soscioeconomic status. Which follows racial lines in a big way in the United States. Unless you have another explanation for it?

[bleedspeed]

My parents used to say. There are lots of smart people and a lot of dumb people in this world. Choose your friends wisely.

[Coolbreeze44]

I think i understand a little better why Brees has apologized for his comments at least twice now. He is going to be working for NBC after his playing career is over. Why is that important? The media (mainstream) and those who ascend to high profile roles in entertainment or the movies, are controlled by a small group of very powerful people. These people control a vast majority of what you hear and see over the airwaves, so they have enormous influence on the narrative. If you've paid any attention at all to the mainstream news media, you know it is very biased to the left. And the vast majority of celebrities echo the same themes.

The reason is the power brokers control who gains celebrity status. If you can't be controlled, good luck getting a recording contract or landing a prominent role in a movie or TV show. So what's been created is an industry where virtually everyone is on the same team. Now of course there are exceptions, but by and large this is true. People who gain all of their news through mainstream sources are also being controlled. It's very important we get our news from a variety of outlets, otherwise you're just not getting the whole picture. I hope more and more people arrive at this "aha" moment, the sooner the better.

Now back to Brees. His conservative viewpoints certainly would not mesh with the narrative that the mainstream media perpetuates every day, especially not NBC. The Brees who made those comments conflicts directly, making his future employment with the network a problem. Do I think Brees did a 180 on his own values and point of view overnight? No I do not. I believe he received more than a gentle nudge from a variety of sources, some of whom will be signing his future paychecks. This should scare you a little bit.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

I think i understand a little better why Brees has apologized for his comments at least twice now. He is going to be working for NBC after his playing career is over. Why is that important? The media (mainstream) and those who ascend to high profile roles in entertainment or the movies, are controlled by a small group of very powerful people. These people control a vast majority of what you hear and see over the airwaves, so they have enormous influence on the narrative. If you've paid any attention at all to the mainstream news media, you know it is very biased to the left. And the vast majority of celebrities echo the same themes.

The reason is the power brokers control who gains celebrity status. If you can't be controlled, good luck getting a recording contract or landing a prominent role in a movie or TV show. So what's been created is an industry where virtually everyone is on the same team. Now of course there are exceptions, but by and large this is true. People who gain all of their news through mainstream sources are also being controlled. It's very important we get our news from a variety of outlets, otherwise you're just not getting the whole picture. I hope more and more people arrive at this "aha" moment, the sooner the better.

Now back to Brees. His conservative viewpoints certainly would not mesh with the narrative that the mainstream media perpetuates every day, especially not NBC. The Brees who made those comments conflicts directly, making his future employment with the network a problem. Do I think Brees did a 180 on his own values and point of view overnight? No I do not. I believe he received more than a gentle nudge from a variety of sources, some of whom will be signing his future paychecks. This should scare you a little bit.

You hit the nail on the head. Public outrage and media pressure not only made Drew Brees apologize when he didn't need to, but now he's promoting a false narrative. The herd wins again.

I don't blame him. He has a family to provide for. I blame those that contribute to this groupthink-or-die mentality. Independent thought is growing frowned upon, especially by so-called "freethinkers", in a nation that used to promote exactly that.

[mrhockey89]

The majority of people here like stats when applied to basketball, the truth is in the numbers. Justice is supposed to be blind, we see that image outside of most courthouses in the western world. Justice is disproportionately applied to people of color. Its in the numbers plain and simple. People of color are killed at a much greater rate by police. It is a perversion of justice that follows racial lines, and a product of a racist society, all good intentions aside.

There is an old saying, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics". Stats can tell whatever story you want based upon which stats you choose to present.

Yes black men are killed by cops in numbers greater than their percentage of the population. But they're also killed less when viewed by percentage of crime committed by their race. Now before I'm called racist for pointing out that statistic remember the vast majority of violent crime is committed intraracially so the majority of their victims are also black.

None of that alleviates the need for law enforcement to be better, a lot better! George Floyd should still be alive today as should many other people of all races.

.

Yes crime stats (including violent crime) follow along racial lines too. That stat only reinforces a that racism is embedded in our society beyond policing.

Please explain the bolded.

Easy, if one subsection defined by race of society is involved in crime (both as victims and perpetrators) at a higher rate then the rest of society there are likely factors contributing to that statistic. Most common factors linked statistically to that are usually low soscioeconomic status. Which follows racial lines in a big way in the United States. Unless you have another explanation for it?

I'll say this. If anyone thinks that fixing the system alone (I agree it needs to be fixed including policing, banking, schooling, and otherwise, but the killing of unarmed black men is not one of the systemic problems per the stats, yet somehow is the focus) will make things appear even, they're fooling themselves. Black culture also needs to be addressed within the community, violence, crime, lack of pedestalizing those who succeed through schooling, etc. That's my only issue with this movement is that there's zero accountability from the inside. It sounds like there's good movement to fix the system which is half the battle, but the other half needs to be fixed as well for us to see the effective 'equality' that everyone is looking for. I know this is controversial for me to say, but that really needs to be part of the solution and that needs to be realized.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

The majority of people here like stats when applied to basketball, the truth is in the numbers. Justice is supposed to be blind, we see that image outside of most courthouses in the western world. Justice is disproportionately applied to people of color. Its in the numbers plain and simple. People of color are killed at a much greater rate by police. It is a perversion of justice that follows racial lines, and a product of a racist society, all good intentions aside.

There is an old saying, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics". Stats can tell whatever story you want based upon which stats you choose to present.

Yes black men are killed by cops in numbers greater than their percentage of the population. But they're also killed less when viewed by percentage of crime committed by their race. Now before I'm called racist for pointing out that statistic remember the vast majority of violent crime is committed intraracially so the majority of their victims are also black.

None of that alleviates the need for law enforcement to be better, a lot better! George Floyd should still be alive today as should many other people of all races.

.

Yes crime stats (including violent crime) follow along racial lines too. That stat only reinforces a that racism is embedded in our society beyond policing.

Please explain the bolded.

Easy, if one subsection defined by race of society is involved in crime (both as victims and perpetrators) at a higher rate then the rest of society there are likely factors contributing to that statistic. Most common factors linked statistically to that are usually low soscioeconomic status. Which follows racial lines in a big way in the United States. Unless you have another explanation for it?

I'll say this. If anyone thinks that fixing the system alone (I agree it needs to be fixed including policing, banking, schooling, and otherwise, but the killing of unarmed black men is not one of the systemic problems per the stats, yet somehow is the focus) will make things appear even, they're fooling themselves. Black culture also needs to be addressed within the community, violence, crime, lack of pedestalizing those who succeed through schooling, etc. That's my only issue with this movement is that there's zero accountability from the inside. It sounds like there's good movement to fix the system which is half the battle, but the other half needs to be fixed as well for us to see the effective 'equality' that everyone is looking for. I know this is controversial for me to say, but that really needs to be part of the solution and that needs to be realized.

Controversial? Yes. Factual? Absolutely. None of what you said here is wrong at all. The publicly available data supports this claim. Too bad the herd is chasing false narratives instead of focusing on the real problems within our communities.

[Monster]

The majority of people here like stats when applied to basketball, the truth is in the numbers. Justice is supposed to be blind, we see that image outside of most courthouses in the western world. Justice is disproportionately applied to people of color. Its in the numbers plain and simple. People of color are killed at a much greater rate by police. It is a perversion of justice that follows racial lines, and a product of a racist society, all good intentions aside.

There is an old saying, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics". Stats can tell whatever story you want based upon which stats you choose to present.

Yes black men are killed by cops in numbers greater than their percentage of the population. But they're also killed less when viewed by percentage of crime committed by their race. Now before I'm called racist for pointing out that statistic remember the vast majority of violent crime is committed intraracially so the majority of their victims are also black.

None of that alleviates the need for law enforcement to be better, a lot better! George Floyd should still be alive today as should many other people of all races.

.

Yes crime stats (including violent crime) follow along racial lines too. That stat only reinforces a that racism is embedded in our society beyond policing.

Please explain the bolded.

Easy, if one subsection defined by race of society is involved in crime (both as victims and perpetrators) at a higher rate then the rest of society there are likely factors contributing to that statistic. Most common factors linked statistically to that are usually low soscioeconomic status. Which follows racial lines in a big way in the United States. Unless you have another explanation for it?

I'll say this. If anyone thinks that fixing the system alone (I agree it needs to be fixed including policing, banking, schooling, and otherwise, but the killing of unarmed black men is not one of the systemic problems per the stats, yet somehow is the focus) will make things appear even, they're fooling themselves. Black culture also needs to be addressed within the community, violence, crime, lack of pedestalizing those who succeed through schooling, etc. That's my only issue with this movement is that there's zero accountability from the inside. It sounds like there's good movement to fix the system which is half the battle, but the other half needs to be fixed as well for us to see the effective 'equality' that everyone is looking for. I know this is controversial for me to say, but that really needs to be part of the solution and that needs to be realized.

Controversial? Yes. Factual? Absolutely. None of what you said here is wrong at all. The publicly available data supports this claim. Too bad the herd is chasing false narratives instead of focusing on the real problems within our communities.

So what are the suggested solutions?