Minnesota Sports Forum

KG4Ever wrote:I think the best way to view KAT is as a large wing player, not as a "big" because his game doesn't fit the mold. I actually think as a wing player he could be a positive defender, he just sucks as a rim protector. So we need to find a big that compliments KAT. Willie Cauley-Stein, Aron Baynes and Ian Mahinmi will be free agents this offseason and so I'd look at signing one to a one year deal to see if he could be a defensive anchor. Of course, I'd also like try to draft/develop/find a young Bam Adebayo, Rudy Gobert, Embiid or Stephen Adams clone if one is out there to be found.

For fun, I looked at center DRPM and saw Gorgui listed fifth behind Gasol, Embiid, Carter and Jokic and just ahead of Gobert and Adebayo. I'd like to see KAT and Gorgui play together more the rest of the season where their defensive roles are clearly defined and see if it can produce positive results.

That's what I was thinking as well that going back to the G and KAT lineup might be a nice combination of defense and offense (maybe matchup dependent though too). You'll get even more rebounding too because defense isn't only about steals and making teams take tough shots, it's about getting the board. G is still solid in spacing on offense so the paint isn't clogged with the big. If G can knock down the 3 at even a little better rate the offense could be really good with both Wiggins and KAT back. Either that or KAT sees that trying to block every shot and foul isn't a smart thing, while watching from the bench these last couple weeks. Just wall up and grab the board.

The Wolves did start out with fairly good defense with KAT too for the first 18 games. They were 12th in DRTG.

I don't know what happened to cause them to tumble to last in the league for the losing streak. That's what I wonder.

Culver looks to be a legit defender. Has a sneaky solid handle and can finish well in the paint for a 19 year old. He's a player. Once he starts draining 3's, this dude is going to be good.

I take back everything I said about Rosas and the Culver pick. I love it now and I see the guy I saw on highlights in college show up these last couple games.

Oh and Ryan Saunders should be coach of the year. OK maybe not but I like the job he is doing!!! :thumb:

Culver's defense last night was elite. If he can play defense like that and continue to improve on his playmaking, he could be a very solid rotation combo guard. But he'll never be the true difference maker we need on the perimeter if he can't be a respectable shooter, it's as simple as that.

KAT has had prior stints of good defense in the past just like the start of this season, but it just never held up. At the end of the day, we have a pretty overwhelming amount of data over 5 seasons that he's just not ever going to be much of a defensive presence. He absolutely needs to be paired with Vonleh or Dieng. It will be interesting to see what Saunders does if RoCo gets traded. I could see them starting KBD, but not sure that's the solution either.

Q12543 wrote:Culver's defense last night was elite. If he can play defense like that and continue to improve on his playmaking, he could be a very solid rotation combo guard. But he'll never be the true difference maker we need on the perimeter if he can't be a respectable shooter, it's as simple as that.

KAT has had prior stints of good defense in the past just like the start of this season, but it just never held up. At the end of the day, we have a pretty overwhelming amount of data over 5 seasons that he's just not ever going to be much of a defensive presence. He absolutely needs to be paired with Vonleh or Dieng. It will be interesting to see what Saunders does if RoCo gets traded. I could see them starting KBD, but not sure that's the solution either.

So... fair enough. The Wolves can't win with Towns as a C.

So they're going to compromise their preferred style/system by pairing him with defensive-minded, space-clogging big man. Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of building around a genre-changing unicorn big man?

Maybe it'll be interesting to see what happens in LAL this spring. Davis is pretty adamant that he doesn't want to be the 5. So they pair him a lot with big men Howard or McGee. When the playoffs roll around, will the Lakers keep throwing cursory bigs out there for 35 - 40 mpg a night to appease him? Or, do they realize that to funny capitalize on his talents... it's at the 5?

I don't know if G or KAT are good enough perimeter defenders to make up for the added rebounding and interior defense. Thinking how most teams are going small these days. Against certain teams who roll two big like the Lakers, sure. G is also never a threat to dribble drive. So his game is so limited.

Ideally a Lopez type who can defend well while still draining 3's for space could work with KAT. The way the Bucks play they pretty much leave either Lopez down low in the paint (illegally) and the other 4 zoning on the perimeter.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Culver's defense last night was elite. If he can play defense like that and continue to improve on his playmaking, he could be a very solid rotation combo guard. But he'll never be the true difference maker we need on the perimeter if he can't be a respectable shooter, it's as simple as that.

KAT has had prior stints of good defense in the past just like the start of this season, but it just never held up. At the end of the day, we have a pretty overwhelming amount of data over 5 seasons that he's just not ever going to be much of a defensive presence. He absolutely needs to be paired with Vonleh or Dieng. It will be interesting to see what Saunders does if RoCo gets traded. I could see them starting KBD, but not sure that's the solution either.

So... fair enough. The Wolves can't win with Towns as a C.

So they're going to compromise their preferred style/system by pairing him with defensive-minded, space-clogging big man. Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of building around a genre-changing unicorn big man?

Maybe it'll be interesting to see what happens in LAL this spring. Davis is pretty adamant that he doesn't want to be the 5. So they pair him a lot with big men Howard or McGee. When the playoffs roll around, will the Lakers keep throwing cursory bigs out there for 35 - 40 mpg a night to appease him? Or, do they realize that to funny capitalize on his talents... it's at the 5?

Well, therein lies the basis for my openness to trading him now, but you know that already and we both know the franchise won't do it...at least until his agent demands it within the next couple years. I figure we have one or two more offseasons at most.

- The space-clogging thing is already an issue. Keep in mind that if Dieng or Vonleh started, the guy they would be replacing in the starting lineup is a non-shooting perimeter player since RoCo would simply slide to the 3. The difference is that now it's a big man sagging off his guy versus a wing sagging off his guy. So yes, a little worse.

- If you look at this year and beyond (I don't expect Vonleh to be here next year), Dieng and Reid are turning into credible 3-point shooting threats. Not elite by any means, but guys that one totally ignores at their own peril. Reid's shot especially is super repeatable and will likely improve with time. So those two in particular actually open up more space, not less, when you think about the non-shooting wing that they'd replace in the current lineup.

- Unfortunately this is the reality with KAT. I think our defense would be solid if he were surrounded by Covington, Culver, Okogie, and Graham, but then our offense is absolutely horrid still. To get more offense, now you start putting guys like Wiggins, Teague, or Nowell, but with each successive move like that the defense gradually goes from solid to well below average. KAT simply isn't capable of anchoring a defense with a couple of less-than-stellar perimeter defenders.

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Culver's defense last night was elite. If he can play defense like that and continue to improve on his playmaking, he could be a very solid rotation combo guard. But he'll never be the true difference maker we need on the perimeter if he can't be a respectable shooter, it's as simple as that.

KAT has had prior stints of good defense in the past just like the start of this season, but it just never held up. At the end of the day, we have a pretty overwhelming amount of data over 5 seasons that he's just not ever going to be much of a defensive presence. He absolutely needs to be paired with Vonleh or Dieng. It will be interesting to see what Saunders does if RoCo gets traded. I could see them starting KBD, but not sure that's the solution either.

So... fair enough. The Wolves can't win with Towns as a C.

So they're going to compromise their preferred style/system by pairing him with defensive-minded, space-clogging big man. Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of building around a genre-changing unicorn big man?

Maybe it'll be interesting to see what happens in LAL this spring. Davis is pretty adamant that he doesn't want to be the 5. So they pair him a lot with big men Howard or McGee. When the playoffs roll around, will the Lakers keep throwing cursory bigs out there for 35 - 40 mpg a night to appease him? Or, do they realize that to funny capitalize on his talents... it's at the 5?

Well, therein lies the basis for my openness to trading him now, but you know that already and we both know the franchise won't do it...at least until his agent demands it within the next couple years. I figure we have one or two more offseasons at most.

- The space-clogging thing is already an issue. Keep in mind that if Dieng or Vonleh started, the guy they would be replacing in the starting lineup is a non-shooting perimeter player since RoCo would simply slide to the 3. The difference is that now it's a big man sagging off his guy versus a wing sagging off his guy. So yes, a little worse.

- If you look at this year and beyond (I don't expect Vonleh to be here next year), Dieng and Reid are turning into credible 3-point shooting threats. Not elite by any means, but guys that one totally ignores at their own peril. Reid's shot especially is super repeatable and will likely improve with time. So those two in particular actually open up more space, not less, when you think about the non-shooting wing that they'd replace in the current lineup.

- Unfortunately this is the reality with KAT. I think our defense would be solid if he were surrounded by Covington, Culver, Okogie, and Graham, but then our offense is absolutely horrid still. To get more offense, now you start putting guys like Wiggins, Teague, or Nowell, but with each successive move like that the defense gradually goes from solid to well below average. KAT simply isn't capable of anchoring a defense with a couple of less-than-stellar perimeter defenders.

I think a lot of the concern about wing shooting is moot considering that I expect almost the entire roster to change within the next 18 months. The only thing that gives me pause, however, is that this regime traded up for a non-shooting wing.

I would have been happy with Brandon Clarke at the time of the draft. I don't know if that works any better or not... maybe he's just the latest incarnation of a Kenneth Faried type who's game doesn't have legs long-term.

One interesting stat though... he's already looking like a much better shooter than expected: 16 - 35 on three pointers (46%) and 77% from the line.

I think having one Culver or Okogie type bulldog defender that can't shoot is OK. It's having two or more out there at the same time that's a problem. While Culver may not quite be at Okogie's level defensively yet, his ability to handle the ball and play a combo guard of sorts may eventually win the day.

We soooooo desperately need Nowell to work out, and I mean in a big way.

Q12543 wrote:I think having one Culver or Okogie type bulldog defender that can't shoot is OK. It's having two or more out there at the same time that's a problem. While Culver may not quite be at Okogie's level defensively yet, his ability to handle the ball and play a combo guard of sorts may eventually win the day.

We soooooo desperately need Nowell to work out, and I mean in a big way.

Yes. For now... that's good enough.

But it also illustrates just how far away the Wolves are when people wonder if they'll ever be able to truly compete for a title. It goes back to our silly Rubio discussions wondering whether his lack of shooting would be a problem in the playoffs. Ha. We never even got to find out. And I think I even noted at the time that I would just be happy to have a chance to find out.

Guys like Tony Allen. Or, Rubio. Or, whomever... are game-planned for in the playoffs. Sometimes, the guys who can't shoot at all are actually played off the court.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:I think having one Culver or Okogie type bulldog defender that can't shoot is OK. It's having two or more out there at the same time that's a problem. While Culver may not quite be at Okogie's level defensively yet, his ability to handle the ball and play a combo guard of sorts may eventually win the day.

We soooooo desperately need Nowell to work out, and I mean in a big way.

Yes. For now... that's good enough.

But it also illustrates just how far away the Wolves are when people wonder if they'll ever be able to truly compete for a title. It goes back to our silly Rubio discussions wondering whether his lack of shooting would be a problem in the playoffs. Ha. We never even got to find out. And I think I even noted at the time that I would just be happy to have a chance to find out.

Guys like Tony Allen. Or, Rubio. Or, whomever... are game-planned for in the playoffs. Sometimes, the guys who can't shoot at all are actually played off the court.

Let's get to the playoffs first, preferably as a 4th seed or better, before we worry about how much of a liability certain players would be once there.

Drafting a poor-shooting SG was a bad decision for this team, which was already one of the League's worst 3-point shooting teams and already had a poor-shooting defensive-oriented SG in Okogie. Even worse that Rosas traded up to get Culver. It would not have been that difficult to get this thing moving in the right direction with KAT as the main cog. For example, the Wolves could have accepted the Pelicans offer to trade Garland at #4 for Covington or simply stayed put and drafted Tyler Herro at #11. Doing one of those two things rather than trading up for Culver would have had a significant positive impact on the trajectory of this organization. Even without one of those two moves on draft day, this team would be better to date this season if the coaching staff played Gorgui or Vonleh consistently at C next to Towns this season rather than playing Covington out of position at PF next to KAT. Our defense would be better and I don't see the concern about clogging the middle on offense given KAT's ability to play outside and spread the floor with his 3-point shooting prowess. Of course, this team would also be performing better to date if the coaching staff weren't stubbornly implementing a system that doesn't fit the team's personnel.

This isn't rocket science and this organization shouldn't be in a position where smart fans are talking about trading KAT. And honestly, trading KAT isn't the answer because he'd leave behind the same front office executives and coaching staff who would likely continue to make the same inexplicably poor judgments. I'm still waiting for Rosas and his minions to show they're good at what they do. Based on what I've seen so far, I'm not optimistic. But I'll remain hopeful. If they turn out to be good, this thing will turn around next season and thereafter. If not, then eventually the organization will likely trade KAT in the 3rd or 4th year of his deal. At that point, Rosas can move on.