thedoper wrote:From what I can tell of this team now Butler deserved to be an asshole. I was hurt by Butler's behavior but ultimately he was right. We should have given him everything because the franchise and the fans were overrating our young talent. On the timing thing it is never too early to win. We needed someone to show Towns and Wiggins the way, I no longer blame Jimmy because those two couldn't handle it. Clearly the narrative that Jimmy and Thibs were holding back the development of our youth was wrong. Yes Jimmy may be the most extreme of assholes, but in the NBA winning franchises know how to placate their stars. Maybe Thibs was the only one just looking at the Jimmy situation from a pure basketball perspective. As much as I have wanted Wiggins to do well and have been one of his biggest supporters, in hindsight dumping wiggins to give Jimmy a better long term deal was the right pure basketball move. This seemed to be what Jimmy and Thibs wanted but Taylor wouldnt allow. Wiggins could have played for a contract and Jimmy would have been taken care of. I wouldnt have wanted that at the time but i was wrong. Jimmy and Kat was a great idea, this in the long run would have sold more tickets and made us a better franchise. The problem was our delusion at the time and not Jimmy being himself.
Yes, yes, and yes. This is basically what I meant in the other thread when I said that Jimmy Butler "slipped away." Obviously, he forced his way out at the end, but I really do believe all of that could have been avoided had management basically given him what he wanted monetarily and just focused on building around him and Karl-Anthony Towns. And in the end we would be in a much, much better position now had they done exactly that.
thedoper wrote:From what I can tell of this team now Butler deserved to be an asshole. I was hurt by Butler's behavior but ultimately he was right. We should have given him everything because the franchise and the fans were overrating our young talent. On the timing thing it is never too early to win. We needed someone to show Towns and Wiggins the way, I no longer blame Jimmy because those two couldn't handle it. Clearly the narrative that Jimmy and Thibs were holding back the development of our youth was wrong. Yes Jimmy may be the most extreme of assholes, but in the NBA winning franchises know how to placate their stars. Maybe Thibs was the only one just looking at the Jimmy situation from a pure basketball perspective. As much as I have wanted Wiggins to do well and have been one of his biggest supporters, in hindsight dumping wiggins to give Jimmy a better long term deal was the right pure basketball move. This seemed to be what Jimmy and Thibs wanted but Taylor wouldnt allow. Wiggins could have played for a contract and Jimmy would have been taken care of. I wouldnt have wanted that at the time but i was wrong. Jimmy and Kat was a great idea, this in the long run would have sold more tickets and made us a better franchise. The problem was our delusion at the time and not Jimmy being himself.
Deserved to be an asshole... and deserved to purposely sabotage an entire season for millions of Timberwolves fans?
I think he could have been the asshole without ruining an entire season.
Haha. Yes I mean his position was more evidence based, his behavior was bad. Although i believe a year of him making public trade demands wouldnt have gone over any better with this fan base.
thedoper wrote:From what I can tell of this team now Butler deserved to be an asshole. I was hurt by Butler's behavior but ultimately he was right. We should have given him everything because the franchise and the fans were overrating our young talent. On the timing thing it is never too early to win. We needed someone to show Towns and Wiggins the way, I no longer blame Jimmy because those two couldn't handle it. Clearly the narrative that Jimmy and Thibs were holding back the development of our youth was wrong. Yes Jimmy may be the most extreme of assholes, but in the NBA winning franchises know how to placate their stars. Maybe Thibs was the only one just looking at the Jimmy situation from a pure basketball perspective. As much as I have wanted Wiggins to do well and have been one of his biggest supporters, in hindsight dumping wiggins to give Jimmy a better long term deal was the right pure basketball move. This seemed to be what Jimmy and Thibs wanted but Taylor wouldnt allow. Wiggins could have played for a contract and Jimmy would have been taken care of. I wouldnt have wanted that at the time but i was wrong. Jimmy and Kat was a great idea, this in the long run would have sold more tickets and made us a better franchise. The problem was our delusion at the time and not Jimmy being himself.
Deserved to be an asshole... and deserved to purposely sabotage an entire season for millions of Timberwolves fans?
I think he could have been the asshole without ruining an entire season.
Haha. Yes I mean his position was more evidence based, his behavior was bad. Although i believe a year of him making public trade demands wouldnt have gone over any better with this fan base.
Yeah. But we've been through it before. We'd have gotten over it.
Thibodeau really screwed that one up by plugging his ears when Butler told him in the summer. Thibs should have been fired on the spot after Butler staged his practice stunt.
Especially considering that even then... Thibs was cool with throwing the team's foundational pieces under the PR- and ESPN-fueled bus.
thedoper wrote:From what I can tell of this team now Butler deserved to be an asshole. I was hurt by Butler's behavior but ultimately he was right. We should have given him everything because the franchise and the fans were overrating our young talent. On the timing thing it is never too early to win. We needed someone to show Towns and Wiggins the way, I no longer blame Jimmy because those two couldn't handle it. Clearly the narrative that Jimmy and Thibs were holding back the development of our youth was wrong. Yes Jimmy may be the most extreme of assholes, but in the NBA winning franchises know how to placate their stars. Maybe Thibs was the only one just looking at the Jimmy situation from a pure basketball perspective. As much as I have wanted Wiggins to do well and have been one of his biggest supporters, in hindsight dumping wiggins to give Jimmy a better long term deal was the right pure basketball move. This seemed to be what Jimmy and Thibs wanted but Taylor wouldnt allow. Wiggins could have played for a contract and Jimmy would have been taken care of. I wouldnt have wanted that at the time but i was wrong. Jimmy and Kat was a great idea, this in the long run would have sold more tickets and made us a better franchise. The problem was our delusion at the time and not Jimmy being himself.
Deserved to be an asshole... and deserved to purposely sabotage an entire season for millions of Timberwolves fans?
I think he could have been the asshole without ruining an entire season.
Haha. Yes I mean his position was more evidence based, his behavior was bad. Although i believe a year of him making public trade demands wouldnt have gone over any better with this fan base.
Yeah. But we've been through it before. We'd have gotten over it.
Thibodeau really screwed that one up by plugging his ears when Butler told him in the summer. Thibs should have been fired on the spot after Butler staged his practice stunt.
Especially considering that even then... Thibs was cool with throwing the team's foundational pieces under the PR- and ESPN-fueled bus.
I think the bigger mistake was Thibs not talking with Butler before we made the trade, and should have inquired about an extension at that point. As usual with wolves GMs, they aren't really into the details!
A close relative runs in some circles with some of the wolves, and he said the towns/butler GF thing was real. Maybe that was a by product of Butler trying to force his way out though.
thedoper wrote:From what I can tell of this team now Butler deserved to be an asshole. I was hurt by Butler's behavior but ultimately he was right. We should have given him everything because the franchise and the fans were overrating our young talent. On the timing thing it is never too early to win. We needed someone to show Towns and Wiggins the way, I no longer blame Jimmy because those two couldn't handle it. Clearly the narrative that Jimmy and Thibs were holding back the development of our youth was wrong. Yes Jimmy may be the most extreme of assholes, but in the NBA winning franchises know how to placate their stars. Maybe Thibs was the only one just looking at the Jimmy situation from a pure basketball perspective. As much as I have wanted Wiggins to do well and have been one of his biggest supporters, in hindsight dumping wiggins to give Jimmy a better long term deal was the right pure basketball move. This seemed to be what Jimmy and Thibs wanted but Taylor wouldnt allow. Wiggins could have played for a contract and Jimmy would have been taken care of. I wouldnt have wanted that at the time but i was wrong. Jimmy and Kat was a great idea, this in the long run would have sold more tickets and made us a better franchise. The problem was our delusion at the time and not Jimmy being himself.
Deserved to be an asshole... and deserved to purposely sabotage an entire season for millions of Timberwolves fans?
I think he could have been the asshole without ruining an entire season.
Haha. Yes I mean his position was more evidence based, his behavior was bad. Although i believe a year of him making public trade demands wouldnt have gone over any better with this fan base.
Yeah. But we've been through it before. We'd have gotten over it.
Thibodeau really screwed that one up by plugging his ears when Butler told him in the summer. Thibs should have been fired on the spot after Butler staged his practice stunt.
Especially considering that even then... Thibs was cool with throwing the team's foundational pieces under the PR- and ESPN-fueled bus.
I think the bigger mistake was Thibs not talking with Butler before we made the trade, and should have inquired about an extension at that point. As usual with wolves GMs, they aren't really into the details!
A close relative runs in some circles with some of the wolves, and he said the towns/butler GF thing was real. Maybe that was a by product of Butler trying to force his way out though.
Wow, Butler really is a Machievellian asshole.
It's all sad, unfortunate, and tragic. Ultimately, Thibs/Butler was a bad fit with KAT/Wiggins. And ultimately KAT/Wiggins are soft. I basically think everyone is to blame.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Within just a few posts... Future went from criticizing the Wolves for staying in the middle... to criticizing them for going all in.
Now I'm even more confused with his take.
The Butler trade alone wasn't about winning a title. Everybody knows that. The only way to a title was if Towns and Wiggins improved exponentially... and the plan was for them to gain playoff experience with Butler to help them get there.
Future is making it seem like it was losing LaVine and Dunn and the swapping the #7 that prevented it... when in reality... maybe it's just Towns and Wiggins aren't as good as they need to be.
The problem with the Butler deal was three-fold:
First, it was premature. Good organizations with young talent don't deal for the key veteran until the young guys have already proven themselves through team success. The Celtics didn't bring in Kyrie Irving until they were a 50-win team with Brown, Jason Tatum and Marcus Smart among others. The Sixers didn't pursue Butler until they were already a 50-win team and borderline championship contender with their core young guys - Embiid and Simmons, along with Saric and Covington. Moreover, both Boston and Philly had lots of valuable draft assets remaining even after dealing dealing for Kyrie and Butler.
Second, Butler was the wrong type of veteran to bring in to pair with very young players like KAT and Wiggins at the time. He already had a reputation as a player who didn't blend well with young guys and as a an overall asshole of a teammate.
Third, the age difference was too big to make sense. KAT was still 21 years old when the Wolves acquired the 27-year old Butler. Wiggins was 22.
So don't be confused. I didn't like the Butler deal at the time and in retrospect it was a failure. It was the wrong deal at the wrong time. In the end, the Wolves barely made the playoffs as an 8th seed by winning the last game of the season. They were then promptly eliminated in 5 games. The next season the Wolves sucked as they began the season with Butler in a firestorm of Butler-induced controversy.
Sure. I get that take.
I'd argue that Boston added Irving to a 50-win team to win a title. And Philly did the same to a 50-win team to win a title. As I've said repeatedly... that wasn't the goal of the 2018 Timberwolves.
It was 13 years and counting...
The goal wasn't to win a title with Butler. It was to be relevant. The Wolves were relevant for 2/3 of that season, until Butler got hurt. (It's fair to assume he'd get hurt based on his history you and others have documented in the past.)
And as for the 27-year old along with 21 year olds... meh. There aren't many teams comprising only 21 year olds that do much of anything. And to expect the fanbase to wait several more years is not always the best take either.
Personally/obviously, I liked bringing in Butler to take the Wolves to the next level (even if limited) to show the Wolves young stars (and true franchise foundation) what it takes. Then, when Butler moved on in a couple of years (ideally)... the mid-20s versions of Towns and Wiggins would be more seasoned for more legit playoff runs.
It didn't pan out. Thibs was an ass. Butler was even worse... Together they blew everything up almost before it could take shape.
I hated Thibs yelling. I hated his demeanor. I hated how he marginalized the true hope for our future in favor of his personal favorite (Butler). I hated ICE! ICE! I hated how Butler destroyed an entire season out of pettiness. I hated how Thibs enabled it. I hated how it all ended. I hate where the Wolves are today, in part because of the disastrous end to the Butler era.
But I don't hate the premise of that trade. I think it made sense. And I think the fanbase deserved more at the time. It simply didn't pan out.
Abe - We'll just have to agree to disagree on the trade. I think the trade was fundamentally flawed from the outset. I forgot to mention Butler's injury propensity among the reasons why I questioned the deal at the time. As you acknowledged, Butler predictably got hurt for an extended period as he typically had in most of his previous seasons and that was a key factor in the Wolves barely getting the 8th seed rather than a better slot in the playoffs. My main point is that you don't trade young talent & draft assets for the missing veteran piece to pair with 21-year olds in an effort to move from a low lottery spot to the playoffs. You build and develop your young core to take you into the playoffs and then, as the Celtics and Sixers did, you go get the key vet or two who you believe will make you a title contender. It's just a bad decision by an organization with a long track record of consistently bad player-personnel decisions - e.g., giving up on Billups would would have paired perfectly with KG based on talent and age; deciding instead to go with the older often-injured Terrell Brandon. So Thibs is just in a long line of bad front office heads this organization has had. And the Butler trade was one of Thibodeau's signature mistakes as I see it.
Have we traded Towns and started building around Naz Reid yet?
Reports of Towns not being happy...wow shocking. His team went through an 11 game losing streak and he couldn't play. Is he supposed to be happy? Wait that's not what people want right?
Abe - We'll just have to agree to disagree on the trade. I think the trade was fundamentally flawed from the outset. I forgot to mention Butler's injury propensity among the reasons why I questioned the deal at the time. As you acknowledged, Butler predictably got hurt for an extended period as he typically had in most of his previous seasons and that was a key factor in the Wolves barely getting the 8th seed rather than a better slot in the playoffs. My main point is that you don't trade young talent & draft assets for the missing veteran piece to pair with 21-year olds in an effort to move from a low lottery spot to the playoffs. You build and develop your young core to take you into the playoffs and then, as the Celtics and Sixers did, you go get the key vet or two who you believe will make you a title contender. It's just a bad decision by an organization with a long track record of consistently bad player-personnel decisions - e.g., giving up on Billups would would have paired perfectly with KG based on talent and age; deciding instead to go with the older often-injured Terrell Brandon. So Thibs is just in a long line of bad front office heads this organization has had. And the Butler trade was one of Thibodeau's signature mistakes as I see it.
Sure. We've both shared our takes.
I just think the Wolves in 2018 were in a very different situation unlike any other franchise, sans Sacramento. 13 years without a playoff berth is a loooonng time. So I understood why they put more importance on making it even if it wouldn't lead to a title. Here we are two years later ripping the trade. And it can be argued from either side... all good. No problem with it.
What can't be argued was that Taylor paid Towns and Wiggins like all-world superstars... and neither has measured up to varying degrees. That's what's holding the Wolves back in 2020... not the Butler trade. I think giving those guys a pass for a "bad Thibs trade" is what sort of got the team into this mess. Accountability... entitlement... et al.
The two max guys have to be better... so the team doesn't have to deliberately tank a season to find them even more help.
