Minnesota Sports Forum

longstrangetrip wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:I think Okogie is a perfect match for Rose and Tyus on the 2nd unit. He's 3rd or 4th option there anyway. His job will be to set screens, rebound, play d and create chaos. If Tyus and Rose run a similar pace that they did last year Okogie will get some easy buckets.

May be on defense, but no on offense. You'd ideally want at least a couple of those guys to be able to be a legit deep threat. None of them are dangerous from 3, so the spacing will suck. Anthony Tolliver helps, but these days you need a lot more than one guy that can shoot the 3. The fact is absolutely no one in our 6-man perimeter rotation (Teague, Jones, Rose, Wiggins, Butler, Okogie) is considered a volume 3 threat. I honestly don't know of another team that exists with such little 3-point shooting up and down the PG-SG-SF depth chart.

But is he really a good fit on the second unit defensively? Yes, he has long arms, but he's only 6'4"...do we really expect him to be able defend older and bigger SFs? I see Wig as a true combo SF/SG, while Josh may not be big enough to guard many SFs. That's another reason I prefer Wig matched with the small backcourt of Tyus/Rose than Josh...three guys on the court under 6'4" is an extreme example of "going small" in my opinion.

I think height is a little overrated when it comes to defense. If you've got that bulldog mentality, a solid base, and the ability to move your feet, that is far more valuable than length. I also think bench units (including the opposition!) always run a bit smaller so I don't see him stuck in major mis-matches. And nowadays, teams practically beg you to post up their smaller players, banking on the general inefficiency of mid-range turnarounds versus drives to the hoop and 3-point shots. It's way more important he can stay in front of guys, fight through screens, make the proper rotations, etc.

Here's the other thing. Until Wiggins proves he can be an efficient scorer that takes good shots, I don't want him leading the bench unit jacking up long 2's and super difficult mid-range shots. He's much less likely to do this when playing with the starting unit.

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

thedoper wrote:I think Okogie is a perfect match for Rose and Tyus on the 2nd unit. He's 3rd or 4th option there anyway. His job will be to set screens, rebound, play d and create chaos. If Tyus and Rose run a similar pace that they did last year Okogie will get some easy buckets.

May be on defense, but no on offense. You'd ideally want at least a couple of those guys to be able to be a legit deep threat. None of them are dangerous from 3, so the spacing will suck. Anthony Tolliver helps, but these days you need a lot more than one guy that can shoot the 3. The fact is absolutely no one in our 6-man perimeter rotation (Teague, Jones, Rose, Wiggins, Butler, Okogie) is considered a volume 3 threat. I honestly don't know of another team that exists with such little 3-point shooting up and down the PG-SG-SF depth chart.

Defense was the biggest problem on our bench and the biggest factor in our D being ranked so low. We keep our offense the same and bring up our team D, escpecially in our bench, we're a better team. I can see all of our wings becoming better 3 pt shooters but we, like San Antonio, just didn't take very many. Maybe we launch more this year but our offense from a numbers perspective just wasn't a problem.

I believe our good offense though came partially at the expense of good defense. For example, we sent a lot of guys to the offensive glass. The result was we were 4th in the NBA in O-rebound percentage. But what about the times we didn't get the offensive rebound? It makes us more vulnerable to easy fast break buckets.

Having a bunch of guys that prefer to do their work from 18 feet in creates a big problem in transition defense.

Our starters defensive metrics were good as a unit. The offensive rebounding may have come into play with Gorgui and Belly but really didn't play out in Defensive numbers for the starters as a unit. To me unfortunately we had some really bad players (namely Crawford, but G and Belly too) with no interest or ability to play D on our second unit. The disparity in our D between the starting 5 and every other combination was insanely bad other than replacing Tyus for Teague. I think just getting players in there with a commitment to defending is going to make a huge difference. Also just for minutes perspective, Crawford used to be the 3rd wing off the bench once Bazz stopped getting played at all. If Okogie can gain Thibs' trust and contribute we benefit with a fresher Wiggins and Butler. I didn't like last year how Wiggins would play the whole first quarter and beyond with the second unit after the rest of the starters went to the bench. He went to being able to switch fluidly with Butler, to playing a traditional 3 with no help from Crawford. This would also be when we'd typically give up the lead we built in the first.

I guess I'll be "that guy" that brings this up. As it stands currently, it likely won't be too long into the season until Josh Okogie replaces Derrick Rose as the primary backup SG whether it's due to injury or overall production. Rose hasn't played more than 66 games in a season since... oh... his MVP (should have been LeBron James' third MVP award, but that's besides the point) season back in 2010-11. You can go ahead and write it in the history books that Rose is going to be unavailable at some point next season and I'd bet that whenever that happens, Okogie takes the reigns and runs away with it.

I know what you're thinking. Well, what if Rose miraculously stays healthy and doesn't really miss many games? The other question mark with him is production. Aside from a few sparks at the end of last season, Rose has been a massive liability unquestionably on both ends of the floor the last three seasons. If his health doesn't do him in, his inability to be a positive force on the floor probably will.

This is all the more reason why the Wolves absolutely have to continue exploring the market for another wing, whether that's via free agency somehow or more realistically by trade. Names to consider are: Jonathan Simmons (T), David Nwaba (S/T), DeMarre Carroll (T), Wesley Matthews (T), James Ennis (FA), Pat Connaughton (FA), and Iman Shumpert (T).

I'm always suspicious of rookies, especially Timberwolves rookies, who through the years tend to be net negatives when they take the floor. So while I'm sure Okogie will work his butt off and show promise, I'm not so sure he's ready to be a positive contributor. We'll see....

As for Rose, I agree that we should keep expectations low. It may in fact be a good thing if he gets hurt. He may do more damage playing minutes than sitting on the bench based on his recent track record....But then behind him are rookies....shaky!

Q12543 wrote:I'm always suspicious of rookies, especially Timberwolves rookies, who through the years tend to be net negatives when they take the floor. So while I'm sure Okogie will work his butt off and show promise, I'm not so sure he's ready to be a positive contributor. We'll see....

As for Rose, I agree that we should keep expectations low. It may in fact be a good thing if he gets hurt. He may do more damage playing minutes than sitting on the bench based on his recent track record....But then behind him are rookies....shaky!

Q the question I have is whether the Rookies can be as good as some other scrubs that would play instead of them. There are a lot of numbers that say it wouldn't be hard to better than crawford right? :) ok that's a bar that's not just low but buried deep in the ground somewhere. lol I also think that rookies that their value is more than just putting the ball in the basket may fair a bit better than just scorers. Regardless yes we need to add another more proven player. Like Cam pointed out its only a matter of fine before Rose will get hurt and someone else will be in the rotation. Butler is likely to miss some time as well.

Camden wrote:I guess I'll be "that guy" that brings this up. As it stands currently, it likely won't be too long into the season until Josh Okogie replaces Derrick Rose as the primary backup SG whether it's due to injury or overall production. Rose hasn't played more than 66 games in a season since... oh... his MVP (should have been LeBron James' third MVP award, but that's besides the point) season back in 2010-11. You can go ahead and write it in the history books that Rose is going to be unavailable at some point next season and I'd bet that whenever that happens, Okogie takes the reigns and runs away with it.

I know what you're thinking. Well, what if Rose miraculously stays healthy and doesn't really miss many games? The other question mark with him is production. Aside from a few sparks at the end of last season, Rose has been a massive liability unquestionably on both ends of the floor the last three seasons. If his health doesn't do him in, his inability to be a positive force on the floor probably will.

This is all the more reason why the Wolves absolutely have to continue exploring the market for another wing, whether that's via free agency somehow or more realistically by trade. Names to consider are: Jonathan Simmons (T), David Nwaba (S/T), DeMarre Carroll (T), Wesley Matthews (T), James Ennis (FA), Pat Connaughton (FA), and Iman Shumpert (T).

We don't want to have to rely on a banged up Derrick Rose or 19 year rookie in Josh Okogie as our first wing off the bench. That will make the Jamal Crawford signing last season look like a home run. And without capspace the only way to acquire someone half decent is by trading either Gorgui Dieng, Jeff Teague or Taj Gibson.

As you mentioned Cam I think DeMarre Carroll could be acquired from the Nets realistically. They also have Allen Crabbe as an 18 mil expiring. Both would help our 3pt shooting and wing depth significantly.

I'd offer Gorgui Dieng and a future 2nd for either Carroll / Crabbe. Not only would it strengthen our bench but it would give us the cap space next season to re sign Jimmy Buckets and KAT.

KiwiMatt wrote:

Camden wrote:I guess I'll be "that guy" that brings this up. As it stands currently, it likely won't be too long into the season until Josh Okogie replaces Derrick Rose as the primary backup SG whether it's due to injury or overall production. Rose hasn't played more than 66 games in a season since... oh... his MVP (should have been LeBron James' third MVP award, but that's besides the point) season back in 2010-11. You can go ahead and write it in the history books that Rose is going to be unavailable at some point next season and I'd bet that whenever that happens, Okogie takes the reigns and runs away with it.

I know what you're thinking. Well, what if Rose miraculously stays healthy and doesn't really miss many games? The other question mark with him is production. Aside from a few sparks at the end of last season, Rose has been a massive liability unquestionably on both ends of the floor the last three seasons. If his health doesn't do him in, his inability to be a positive force on the floor probably will.

This is all the more reason why the Wolves absolutely have to continue exploring the market for another wing, whether that's via free agency somehow or more realistically by trade. Names to consider are: Jonathan Simmons (T), David Nwaba (S/T), DeMarre Carroll (T), Wesley Matthews (T), James Ennis (FA), Pat Connaughton (FA), and Iman Shumpert (T).

We don't want to have to rely on a banged up Derrick Rose or 19 year rookie in Josh Okogie as our first wing off the bench. That will make the Jamal Crawford signing last season look like a home run. And without capspace the only way to acquire someone half decent is by trading either Gorgui Dieng, Jeff Teague or Taj Gibson.

As you mentioned Cam I think DeMarre Carroll could be acquired from the Nets realistically. They also have Allen Crabbe as an 18 mil expiring. Both would help our 3pt shooting and wing depth significantly.

I'd offer Gorgui Dieng and a future 2nd for either Carroll / Crabbe. Not only would it strengthen our bench but it would give us the cap space next season to re sign Jimmy Buckets and KAT.

No way the Nets are gonna say yes to that deal. They just made a move to have a ton of space for next year's FA they aren't going to take on Dieng for a future 2nd. In addition both of those guys espcially Carroll (expecting contract) have more value around the league than Dieng. It's been reported the Wolves have called on Courtney Lee but again Dieng has all that money left and makes more each year than Lee.

Can we still offer vet minimum contracts to fill out the roster even if we're up against the cap? I don't know the rules on this, can someone explain it to me?

My guess is that there will still be some decent players available at some point after everybody's used up their cap space. The overpay for a lot of these players has created a scenario where there are also a lot of players who are going to have to settle for the minimum.

If Thibs actually played bench players, it would make more sense to try to get a more respectable bench guy. I like the Tolliver signing (there goes my LRMAM hopes), now just another guy like that as a wing backup/insurance policy would be great, I agree. Someone will pay Wayne Ellington way more than we can. Did someone sign Bellineli yet? God, I hate to say it, but Nick Young? James Ennis? Dante Cunningham is too redundant with Tolliver. Jason Terry? Richard Jefferson? Any of those guys can probably play, although a couple toward the end I wouldn't want to have to rely on too much.

SameOldDrew wrote:Can we still offer vet minimum contracts to fill out the roster even if we're up against the cap? I don't know the rules on this, can someone explain it to me?

My guess is that there will still be some decent players available at some point after everybody's used up their cap space. The overpay for a lot of these players has created a scenario where there are also a lot of players who are going to have to settle for the minimum.

If Thibs actually played bench players, it would make more sense to try to get a more respectable bench guy. I like the Tolliver signing (there goes my LRMAM hopes), now just another guy like that as a wing backup/insurance policy would be great, I agree. Someone will pay Wayne Ellington way more than we can. Did someone sign Bellineli yet? God, I hate to say it, but Nick Young? James Ennis? Dante Cunningham is too redundant with Tolliver. Jason Terry? Richard Jefferson? Any of those guys can probably play, although a couple toward the end I wouldn't want to have to rely on too much.

Vet minimum is an exception for when you are capped out so we can offer as many as we want to fill out the roster. Just have to be careful because it can put you into the luxury tax.

monsterpile wrote:

KiwiMatt wrote:

Camden wrote:I guess I'll be "that guy" that brings this up. As it stands currently, it likely won't be too long into the season until Josh Okogie replaces Derrick Rose as the primary backup SG whether it's due to injury or overall production. Rose hasn't played more than 66 games in a season since... oh... his MVP (should have been LeBron James' third MVP award, but that's besides the point) season back in 2010-11. You can go ahead and write it in the history books that Rose is going to be unavailable at some point next season and I'd bet that whenever that happens, Okogie takes the reigns and runs away with it.

I know what you're thinking. Well, what if Rose miraculously stays healthy and doesn't really miss many games? The other question mark with him is production. Aside from a few sparks at the end of last season, Rose has been a massive liability unquestionably on both ends of the floor the last three seasons. If his health doesn't do him in, his inability to be a positive force on the floor probably will.

This is all the more reason why the Wolves absolutely have to continue exploring the market for another wing, whether that's via free agency somehow or more realistically by trade. Names to consider are: Jonathan Simmons (T), David Nwaba (S/T), DeMarre Carroll (T), Wesley Matthews (T), James Ennis (FA), Pat Connaughton (FA), and Iman Shumpert (T).

We don't want to have to rely on a banged up Derrick Rose or 19 year rookie in Josh Okogie as our first wing off the bench. That will make the Jamal Crawford signing last season look like a home run. And without capspace the only way to acquire someone half decent is by trading either Gorgui Dieng, Jeff Teague or Taj Gibson.

As you mentioned Cam I think DeMarre Carroll could be acquired from the Nets realistically. They also have Allen Crabbe as an 18 mil expiring. Both would help our 3pt shooting and wing depth significantly.

I'd offer Gorgui Dieng and a future 2nd for either Carroll / Crabbe. Not only would it strengthen our bench but it would give us the cap space next season to re sign Jimmy Buckets and KAT.

No way the Nets are gonna say yes to that deal. They just made a move to have a ton of space for next year's FA they aren't going to take on Dieng for a future 2nd. In addition both of those guys espcially Carroll (expecting contract) have more value around the league than Dieng. It's been reported the Wolves have called on Courtney Lee but again Dieng has all that money left and makes more each year than Lee.

Your probably right Monster. We would have to give up a future 1st. If it was top 20 protected would you do it for Carroll?