Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:Lip the idea that Wiggins wasn't improving before they gave him his extension is a little unfair. He out up 23 ppg before that along with shooting a promising looking 35% from 3. Sure some of the things that were a problem was still there but remember that doing in on a bad team or whatever he was doing that as a 21 year old guy for most of the season. Teams lock up those types of players.

In your litany of bad moves what about trading Thad Young in a pointless season for KG. Look up what Thad Young made when he resigned and what the Nets got for him when they dealt him. Meanwhile Thibs and Layden inherited a guy that refused to play for the team and took up 8 million in salary. Bringing back KG if Flip hadn't passed probably would have been an overall positive but...overall if we are being honest it worked out VERY poorly. Meanwhile people rip on Thibs for ALWAYS doing win now moves bringing in his guys instead of getting more potential...

I didn't like the Thad Young deal. As for Wiggins, his poor ballhandling, low basketball IQ and lack of intensity were obvious before last season. His modest shooting improvement at that time paled in comparison to his lack of improvement (actually his regression) in areas like rebounding. Even $20 million would be too much for him. The Wolves could have gotten better value for Andrew a year ago and even more value two years ago. We're reached a point where trading him means unloading him and his salary with little if any value coming back in return.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Lip the idea that Wiggins wasn't improving before they gave him his extension is a little unfair. He out up 23 ppg before that along with shooting a promising looking 35% from 3. Sure some of the things that were a problem was still there but remember that doing in on a bad team or whatever he was doing that as a 21 year old guy for most of the season. Teams lock up those types of players.

In your litany of bad moves what about trading Thad Young in a pointless season for KG. Look up what Thad Young made when he resigned and what the Nets got for him when they dealt him. Meanwhile Thibs and Layden inherited a guy that refused to play for the team and took up 8 million in salary. Bringing back KG if Flip hadn't passed probably would have been an overall positive but...overall if we are being honest it worked out VERY poorly. Meanwhile people rip on Thibs for ALWAYS doing win now moves bringing in his guys instead of getting more potential...

I didn't like the Thad Young deal. As for Wiggins, his poor ballhandling, low basketball IQ and lack of intensity were obvious before last season. His modest shooting improvement at that time paled in comparison to his lack of improvement (actually his regression) in areas like rebounding. Even $20 million would be too much for him. The Wolves could have gotten better value for Andrew a year ago and even more value two years ago. We're reached a point where trading him means unloading him and his salary with little if any value coming back in return.

Name the teams that deal a player like Wiggins unless forced to. Teams don't. Sure some people wanted to move on at the time and right now they look right but locking up Wiggins is completely defensiveble. It didn't work out and i'll Be honest if Thibs is actually in charge of this team...I would t be shocked if he decided to move on from Wiggins he actually ended up getting something worthwhile back. If he isn't...the new people may think they can get more out of him with a new coach or dump him for nothing. Just because this franchise bet on Wiggins and it turned out to be the wrong move doesn't make them incompetent. It's back to your point about it being more of mediocre and wanting more. I don't disagree with that. Wiggins is part of why this team is teetering on the edge of being mediocre for a while. Some of that is squarely on him.

The Wolves were in a tough spot with Wiggins and his contract...

AbeVigodaLive wrote:The Wolves were in a tough spot with Wiggins and his contract...

The Wolves are in a tough spot with any player and any contract. We need to draft better ultimately though I doubt it will work out there either. The most likely scenario is that this current roster core ends badly, and the team finally moves. We're only guaranteed KAT for 4 more seasons. I don't see us in any better shape than the Pels 4 years from now. It would really take a miracle.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Lip the idea that Wiggins wasn't improving before they gave him his extension is a little unfair. He out up 23 ppg before that along with shooting a promising looking 35% from 3. Sure some of the things that were a problem was still there but remember that doing in on a bad team or whatever he was doing that as a 21 year old guy for most of the season. Teams lock up those types of players.

In your litany of bad moves what about trading Thad Young in a pointless season for KG. Look up what Thad Young made when he resigned and what the Nets got for him when they dealt him. Meanwhile Thibs and Layden inherited a guy that refused to play for the team and took up 8 million in salary. Bringing back KG if Flip hadn't passed probably would have been an overall positive but...overall if we are being honest it worked out VERY poorly. Meanwhile people rip on Thibs for ALWAYS doing win now moves bringing in his guys instead of getting more potential...

I didn't like the Thad Young deal. As for Wiggins, his poor ballhandling, low basketball IQ and lack of intensity were obvious before last season. His modest shooting improvement at that time paled in comparison to his lack of improvement (actually his regression) in areas like rebounding. Even $20 million would be too much for him. The Wolves could have gotten better value for Andrew a year ago and even more value two years ago. We're reached a point where trading him means unloading him and his salary with little if any value coming back in return.

Name the teams that deal a player like Wiggins unless forced to. Teams don't. Sure some people wanted to move on at the time and right now they look right but locking up Wiggins is completely defensiveble. It didn't work out and i'll Be honest if Thibs is actually in charge of this team...I would t be shocked if he decided to move on from Wiggins he actually ended up getting something worthwhile back. If he isn't...the new people may think they can get more out of him with a new coach or dump him for nothing. Just because this franchise bet on Wiggins and it turned out to be the wrong move doesn't make them incompetent. It's back to your point about it being more of mediocre and wanting more. I don't disagree with that. Wiggins is part of why this team is teetering on the edge of being mediocre for a while. Some of that is squarely on him.

I'm not sure who on this Board said the extending Wiggins to a max deal shows the front office is incompetent. As you indicated, I consider the Wolves front office mediocre, not totally incompetent. And even the Wiggins extension by itself doesn't demonstrate the organization's mediocrity. I look at the cumulative array of front office personnel decisions to conclude the front office isn't particularly good -- (1) extending Wiggins to a max deal rather than trading him, (2) signing Gorgui to a 4-year $15 million per year deal, (3) drafting Dunn instead of either Murray or Hield, (4) drafting Patton instead of Collins or Anunoby, (5) signing Jeff Teague to 3 years guaranteed at $19 million per year. Then we had Flip drafting Bazz instead of Giannis and selling a first round pick that could and should have been used to draft Gobert.

The Butler deal turned out to be a failure, but I give credit to the front office for ending up with Covington and Saric. Yet keep in mind that Butler was acquired to be a star alongside KAT, knowing that two stars are necessary to compete for a championship. Neither Covington nor Saric will be a star. I also give credit for turning Rubio into a first round pick and ending up with Okogie. And I give Flip credit for drafting Towns, although not a lot of credit given the near consensus that KAT was the best player in the draft.

Honestly, there's a reason the Wolves have barely made only one playoff appearance as an 8th seed in the last 14 years and why the team is currently second from the bottom in the Western Conference standings. It's the result of the sum total of ownership and front office personnel decisions. The term mediocre to describe this organization over the past 12 years is overly generous.

thedoper wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:The Wolves were in a tough spot with Wiggins and his contract...

The Wolves are in a tough spot with any player and any contract. We need to draft better ultimately though I doubt it will work out there either. The most likely scenario is that this current roster core ends badly, and the team finally moves. We're only guaranteed KAT for 4 more seasons. I don't see us in any better shape than the Pels 4 years from now. It would really take a miracle.

Doper, your point exemplifies what i was saying. It was so crucial for Wig to realize his potential for this franchise. The fact he hasn't would in fact require a miracle for this team to move forward in the next 4 years. I hate to put so much responsibility on one guy, but am I right? The story of his development is the biggest story since KG left in my opinion.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:The Wolves were in a tough spot with Wiggins and his contract...

The Wolves are in a tough spot with any player and any contract. We need to draft better ultimately though I doubt it will work out there either. The most likely scenario is that this current roster core ends badly, and the team finally moves. We're only guaranteed KAT for 4 more seasons. I don't see us in any better shape than the Pels 4 years from now. It would really take a miracle.

Doper, your point exemplifies what i was saying. It was so crucial for Wig to realize his potential for this franchise. The fact he hasn't would in fact require a miracle for this team to move forward in the next 4 years. I hate to put so much responsibility on one guy, but am I right? The story of his development is the biggest story since KG left in my opinion.

It's a lot of pressure and very crucial. I agree on both points. I think he can still be a good and sometimes great player, but it's never going to live up to what is needed to save this franchise. And that is precisely what this franchise needs, saving. KAT alone won't be able to do it.

We have KAT locked in for 5 more years after this season. That's enough time to retool around him. Okogie could pan out as an allstar caliber player. Saric has more upside in his game. Beyond that, the Wolves need to make the most of each of the next few drafts. The focus should be on picking up one or two more first round picks and maybe a relatively high second round pick in exchange for one or more of our vets, including Teague, Rose, Taj, Tolliver and/or Wiggins. If we could get a first round pick for Rubio, we should be able to parley one of more of the aforementioned players into one or two first round picks. I don't want to trade RoCo, but his abilities and team-friendly contract might be a key to landing a young talent or relatively high first round pick in the trade market. The more picks, the better the chances of hitting paydirt on at least one of them.

I highly doubt you could get 1st round pick out of that group. Taj and Tolliver definitely not. Rose possibly, and Teague unlikely in my mind but I'd be try my hardest to do so. I'd be rblowing up the Pelicans phone for Rose or Teague, they are desperate and like trading 1st rounders.

lipoli390 wrote:We have KAT locked in for 5 more years after this season. That's enough time to retool around him. Okogie could pan out as an allstar caliber player. Saric has more upside in his game. Beyond that, the Wolves need to make the most of each of the next few drafts. The focus should be on picking up one or two more first round picks and maybe a relatively high second round pick in exchange for one or more of our vets, including Teague, Rose, Taj, Tolliver and/or Wiggins. If we could get a first round pick for Rubio, we should be able to parley one of more of the aforementioned players into one or two first round picks. I don't want to trade RoCo, but his abilities and team-friendly contract might be a key to landing a young talent or relatively high first round pick in the trade market. The more picks, the better the chances of hitting paydirt on at least one of them.

The contract with KAT is 5 but we have 4 years to rebuild as the final year in free agency is a wash if we're still trying to rebuild. How is KAT going to feel about the assets around him moving backwards too for draft picks? We're basically in the same place we we're with KG post 2004 only KAT isn't as good as KG. Once KAT is gone this team doesn't survive another rebuild. The only other potential way out of this thing is to draft well, get a new dynamic coach and become a bunch of overachievers like Utah. I can't really see Taylor hiring anyone dynamic, that to me would be the biggest miracle of any scenario.