Minnesota Sports Forum

Kek, Ricky struggled at the beginning of last year because Thibs changed how he used Ricky, and it didn't play to his strengths. I didn't want Ricky traded, and the money is definitely a significant issue. The first rounder we got back looked like a decent asset until OKC filled out their team, so we should factor that into the equation as well. Both players have switched teams and it is too early to make any valid judgements right now.

sjm34 wrote:Kek, Ricky struggled at the beginning of last year because Thibs changed how he used Ricky, and it didn't play to his strengths. I didn't want Ricky traded, and the money is definitely a significant issue. The first rounder we got back looked like a decent asset until OKC filled out their team, so we should factor that into the equation as well. Both players have switched teams and it is too early to make any valid judgements right now.

100% agree because of the role change. But he would have that same role on this team as he did at the beginning of the year last year. So would ricky still struggle in that role instead of Teague.

Also who were we adding with that extra 5 million

I'd like this thread to be 35 pages before the end of the season :) .

I appreciate the enthusiasm for Teague and the rant, Kek, but I think you overstate the position of those of us who are currently against the PG swap. I don't believe any of us think everything would have been rosy if we had kept Ricky...we all know he had his flaws, and frankly he hasn't started the season out well with more TOs than usual and a poorer shooting percentage than he had the last half of last year (when he actually outshot Teague). But I still think we'd be better off with Rubio for the following reasons:

1) Financially: I'm not as concerned with paying Teague more (although Q makes a case for what we could have done with that $5 million) as I am with the extra year of his contract. Ricky's contract runs out before we have to max out KAT, Wig and Butler, but Teague's extra year pretty much guarantees that Glen is going to have to move one of the Big 3 before Teague's final year to avoid a ridiculous lux tax. I don't think it is going to be Butler, so get ready for a long, long thread in about a year on the relative merits of keeping either Wig or KAT.

2) Role: Teague has more of a scoring mentality, and Ricky has more of a facilitating mentality. My argument is with the scoring punch of the Big 3 (all were 20+ scorers last year), a pass-first PG fits our needs better than a scoring one. The "spacing" argument has always been a non-starter for me...I was at the Utah game, and it was interesting to observe how we defensed Ricky. We didn't sag off of him or ignore him defensively, I think because after coaching him for a year Thibs knew that was a poor strategy. I saw no issues with Ricky's passing lanes, and he looked like the elite distributor he has always been.

3) Attitude: In all the years Ricky was here, I remember no discussion here about his attitude or lack of effort...in fact, the general consensus on this board was that he was a max effort guy and a great teammate. But we have already seen evidence with Teague that he can be up and down in effort...and it has only been 6 games. Thibs had to bench him in the opener in favor of Tyus and there were reports that Teague pouted about it. I attended the Indiana game and focused a lot of my attention on Teague (frankly, there wasn't much else interesting to watch). The lazy defense gif that (I believe) Future posted was not an aberration...I saw Teague loafing on several instances. I'm hoping this doesn't become a trend.

4) Most (if not all) of us here thought our defense would be greatly improved this year because of the addition of Butler and Gibson (and perhaps the improvement of two guys who were good defenders in college...Wig and KAT). I don't think that many thought swapping Teague for Ricky would be a big factor in our defensive performance...they both have had their strengths and weaknesses in the past. But the fact of the matter is our already horrid defense is actually worse this year. I agree that it's difficult to pinpoint exactly why we have regressed, but of the three new guys in the starting lineup (Butler, Taj and Teague), my eye test tells me that Butler and Taj are not the reason our defense is worse.

So everything rosy if we had kept Ricky? No, not really. But better I still think. I don't think picking up a worse contract to get a PG who has been outplayed in every game this year (including his head to head with Ricky) was Thibs' goal in making the deal.

LST do you really think the worst defense in the NBA defended Rubio the way Thibs wanted them to?!?? Lol just joking around.

I agree with LST's last post. That's why I didn't like the Rubio/Teague swap. I haven't seen anything to change my mind, but I hope I turn out to have been wrong and that my mind does change by the end of the season. Of course, there will never be any definitive indication one way or the other even at the end of the season.

Bottom line in this debate for me: for all the reasons in LST's post, I'd rather have Ricky and the extra $5 million in cap space than Teague and what will likely be a very low 1st round pick in 2018. On the other hand, if the fate of this team turns largely on Teague v Rubio, then the Wolves are in trouble. Maybe 4th versus 5th or 6th versus 7th seed. But not playoff seed versus lottery. More importantly, it shouldn't determine whether this team eventually becomes a championship contender.

Kek is right that the $5 might not have been enough to get CJ Miles. Apparently, he wanted $7 million per year although we can't know for sure. Maybe Gibson would have agreed to $12 million his first year if he knew that would facilitate getting CJ. But I do see the other side of the coin. Having another effective scorer in our starting lineup (Teague) has merit and it's nice have a 1st round pick next June. Maybe Thibs realized that we'll never be very good defensively with KAT and Wiggins, causing him to conclude that we need to ramp up our scoring even more and become an ultra high-scoring team to compete in the West. If so, Teague seems to fit that bill better than Ricky.

Bottom line for this franchise: It's not about Teague or Bazz or Taj or Gorgui. It's about KAT and Wiggins. We've already seen what Butler does for this team. But we've also seen how terrible we still are without him. And even with him, we don't look like a top 4 or 5 seed. KAT needs to become the two-way star he's definitely capable of being. And Wiggins needs to at least become a reliable 2-way allstar caliber player (not necessarily a star) who can be counted on to give us 20+ points nearly every game (no more 7 point games) and do so more efficiently with better three-point and free-throw shooting. If those things happen and Butler stays healthy, then this team can eventually be a top 5 team or better in the West even with Teague as our starting PG.

Obviously, the team will need to add some other pieces, using the $8 million MLE and vet minimum exceptions next summer. But in the meantime, we should keep our eyes on KAT and Wiggins even while the Teague v Rubio debate rages on. :)

It sounds like even if Teague finishes yet another year statistically better than Rubio on both sides of the ball it will do nothing to erase this conversation. Teague is better, 4 million better? Tough to say as Rubio was a bit discounted. Ricky is always going to be loved for his passionate play. I love him for it too, which is precisely why so many people inflate his value. He has never been as good as wolves fans made him out to be which is why there should be an automatic 10% diminishment of value just for homerism. I have done it in the past but he is gone now, there is no reason to reminisce of all the losing he did here. His D what absolute shit last year and most of the stats support that. He is still mediocre on an overachieving team. We need scoring from the point to level our attack, I am thankful we finally have it after years of dreaming that Rubio jumpers would finally fall in the 4th.

What's interesting about Rubio this year is that he is easily at a career high usage rate because Utah just doesn't have very good scorers around him. It's not ideal for Ricky, but he's handling it about as well as you could expect given his iffy track record as a scoring option: 15 PPG on 41% shooting and 55 TS%,

Happy to see Ricky succeeding in SLC.

Just a coincidence the Wolves are winning all these close games all of a sudden?

PorkChop wrote:Just a coincidence the Wolves are winning all these close games all of a sudden?

Rubio in 6 years had maybe one stat line like Teague did tonight in game 7. It is not a coincidence.