KiwiMatt wrote:Didn't see the game but caught highlights of last two plays. Rubio gets that look every time and I have faith in him making it. Should be used more often. Last play was a combination of our usual woeful defence as well as a great offensive play by Philly.
Exactly, Kiwi...that's why the constant discussion of the Wolves playing 4 on 5 is such a non-starter for me. Ricky doesn't look for his shot throughout the game (only took 3 tonight and made 2) because he is a gifted passer and 3 of the other 4 starters are already gifted scorers (and much better scorers than they were in college, thanks to Ricky)...and the resulting 104 PPG tells me that our offense is not the problem, and that this 4 on 5 discussion is overrated. But there will be times when teams will double one of our scorers and leave Ricky alone at the end of the game, and as Q pointed out in another thread, he appears to have considerably more ice water in his veins than our youngster. I'll let him take that wide open shot with the game on the line any day, and feel confident that he has as good a chance of scoring as anyone...it's interesting that he proved Q's assertion on the very day he made it!
In bold... there are no words. No words. I'm at a complete loss in even how to respond...
Has to be a tongue in cheek comment, just has too.
Actually not tongue-in-cheek at all...I'm sure you guys read Q's post about Ricky's ability to make a big shot at the end of the game, and I don't disagree at all. Ricky is a terrible shooter when the game isn't on the line...there's no other way to spin it. But over the course of his career, he has made as many big shots to either tie or win games in the final seconds as the ENTIRE rest of our starting lineup! Jim Peterson has talked about this...he says Ricky thinks too much during the course of the game and it affects his shooting and he either misses or passes up an open shot. But with time running down and unguarded, and having no other option than to shoot, he has been as reliable as any other Timberwolf. If you guys want to provide specific examples to prove me wrong, I would be happy to listen to them.
Just to be clear, I am not exonerating Ricky from being part of the problem this year. Thibs has reduced his role in running the offense this season and he hasn't been able to adjust. His poor shooting has been exposed more than usual. It's simply an area he has failed to improve upon over the years and it gets exposed further when he is out there as a floor spacer versus running pick and rolls where he has more opportunities to make plays for others and draw fouls for himself (and yes, occasionally knock down a jumper or make a layup).
What I have been defensive about is the idea that he never steps up (Khans' accusation). That's just plain false, and yes, it was timely that on the very day we were having this debate he made a game-tying 3-pointer with barely a second left on the clock! It's unfortunate our poor defensive execution at the end of the game wasted the opportunity to carry the momentum from the comeback into OT.
Thibs is all in on our Big Three based on how he's designed the offense - and the corresponding minutes he's assigned them. We will live and die by how they play.
Way to just not listen to what I say at all. 1 play in a game does not constitute stepping up. He scored 5 fucking points last night and he got 3 of them on our last shot of the game. That's not the stepping up I'm referring to. I'll say it again and maybe this time it will actually sink in instead of bouncing off your thick skull. Nobody outside the Big 3 is stepping up during these games. 5-5-3 is not stepping up. That's a joke of a stat line from a starter who played 30 minutes. If he can't be a part of the offense at all as 3 shots and 5 assists would suggest then he needs to go for someone Thibs does trust to include in the offense more.
Yikes! Angry Khans!
As I mentioned in the other thread, there are multiple examples from last season where Rubio stepped up and had big games. Some ended up being losses, some were wins. I called out the OKC one specifically with his stellar jack-of-all-trades stat line - it wasn't just the game winning shot!
As recently as a few games ago against Denver, Dieng and Rubio were the Wolves' second and third leading scorers with 20 and 18 point respectively. Yet.....we lost anyway. So there ya go. The two guys you say never step up contributed 38 points between them and we still lost anyway!
I certainly wish Rubio was a better shooter, but to say he and Dieng never step up to help the other three guys is plainly false.
So you pulled what, less than 10 examples in the last 117 games? Dieng and Ricky are the two most veteran players in the starting 5 and Ricky is by several years on the other 4. I don't understand how less than 10% of games played is good enough to say Ricky steps up for this team. He's the highest paid player on the team and he only has to exceed expectations 10% of the time to be deemed a guy who steps up. Whatever.
longstrangetrip wrote:Anybody else sensing that this disastrous 2016-7 season is turning many of us into a bunch of curmudgeons? Man, some of the recent posts here are surlier than Thibs during another loss!
Guilty as charged. The disappointment of this season so far is a heavy weight on me. Need to see some real improvement soon.
Also guilty...this season is killing me. As a board we have always been optimistic predictors, but some of our win predictors this year are going to be mathematically eliminated before the end of the month!
Winning makes a lot of problems go away! But alas, it's not to be this year.
I maintain a perspective that everyone is right - to a degree - with their favorite scapegoat. Thibs, Rubio, Wiggins, KAT.....they all deserve some blame in this fiasco of a season. How much blame is a different question and that's where the debates can get heated.
It seems like everybody is hunkering down in their respective camps and holding fast to their beliefs... more than ever. Doubling down on their pet projects...
Whether that's blaming Thibs for everything. Or Rubio. Or Wiggins. Or, absolving Rubio. Or, Wiggins. Or, Thibs. Et al.
To me, that's a sign that we're all grasping for why the team has underperformed as much as it has. It's a sign that nobody here can really make sense of why the Wolves were down 26 points to a decimated 76ers team 18 hours ago. It's a sign that another failed Wolves season is upon us.
And it's comforting to "know" the reason why... because the alternative is a helluva lot scarier.
I keep trying to determine if there have been any significant changes in this team from last year to this that could have led to us being so much worse, and I keep looking at the same guy.
KiwiMatt wrote:Didn't see the game but caught highlights of last two plays. Rubio gets that look every time and I have faith in him making it. Should be used more often. Last play was a combination of our usual woeful defence as well as a great offensive play by Philly.
Exactly, Kiwi...that's why the constant discussion of the Wolves playing 4 on 5 is such a non-starter for me. Ricky doesn't look for his shot throughout the game (only took 3 tonight and made 2) because he is a gifted passer and 3 of the other 4 starters are already gifted scorers (and much better scorers than they were in college, thanks to Ricky)...and the resulting 104 PPG tells me that our offense is not the problem, and that this 4 on 5 discussion is overrated. But there will be times when teams will double one of our scorers and leave Ricky alone at the end of the game, and as Q pointed out in another thread, he appears to have considerably more ice water in his veins than our youngster. I'll let him take that wide open shot with the game on the line any day, and feel confident that he has as good a chance of scoring as anyone...it's interesting that he proved Q's assertion on the very day he made it!
In bold... there are no words. No words. I'm at a complete loss in even how to respond...
Has to be a tongue in cheek comment, just has too.
Actually not tongue-in-cheek at all...I'm sure you guys read Q's post about Ricky's ability to make a big shot at the end of the game, and I don't disagree at all. Ricky is a terrible shooter when the game isn't on the line...there's no other way to spin it. But over the course of his career, he has made as many big shots to either tie or win games in the final seconds as the ENTIRE rest of our starting lineup! Jim Peterson has talked about this...he says Ricky thinks too much during the course of the game and it affects his shooting and he either misses or passes up an open shot. But with time running down and unguarded, and having no other option than to shoot, he has been as reliable as any other Timberwolf. If you guys want to provide specific examples to prove me wrong, I would be happy to listen to them.
Just to be clear, I am not exonerating Ricky from being part of the problem this year. Thibs has reduced his role in running the offense this season and he hasn't been able to adjust. His poor shooting has been exposed more than usual. It's simply an area he has failed to improve upon over the years and it gets exposed further when he is out there as a floor spacer versus running pick and rolls where he has more opportunities to make plays for others and draw fouls for himself (and yes, occasionally knock down a jumper or make a layup).
What I have been defensive about is the idea that he never steps up (Khans' accusation). That's just plain false, and yes, it was timely that on the very day we were having this debate he made a game-tying 3-pointer with barely a second left on the clock! It's unfortunate our poor defensive execution at the end of the game wasted the opportunity to carry the momentum from the comeback into OT.
Thibs is all in on our Big Three based on how he's designed the offense - and the corresponding minutes he's assigned them. We will live and die by how they play.
Way to just not listen to what I say at all. 1 play in a game does not constitute stepping up. He scored 5 fucking points last night and he got 3 of them on our last shot of the game. That's not the stepping up I'm referring to. I'll say it again and maybe this time it will actually sink in instead of bouncing off your thick skull. Nobody outside the Big 3 is stepping up during these games. 5-5-3 is not stepping up. That's a joke of a stat line from a starter who played 30 minutes. If he can't be a part of the offense at all as 3 shots and 5 assists would suggest then he needs to go for someone Thibs does trust to include in the offense more.
Yikes! Angry Khans!
As I mentioned in the other thread, there are multiple examples from last season where Rubio stepped up and had big games. Some ended up being losses, some were wins. I called out the OKC one specifically with his stellar jack-of-all-trades stat line - it wasn't just the game winning shot!
As recently as a few games ago against Denver, Dieng and Rubio were the Wolves' second and third leading scorers with 20 and 18 point respectively. Yet.....we lost anyway. So there ya go. The two guys you say never step up contributed 38 points between them and we still lost anyway!
I certainly wish Rubio was a better shooter, but to say he and Dieng never step up to help the other three guys is plainly false.
So you pulled what, less than 10 examples in the last 117 games? Dieng and Ricky are the two most veteran players in the starting 5 and Ricky is by several years on the other 4. I don't understand how less than 10% of games played is good enough to say Ricky steps up for this team. He's the highest paid player on the team and he only has to exceed expectations 10% of the time to be deemed a guy who steps up. Whatever.
More than 10% of the games, don't be silly Khans . I don't define "stepping up" as having to be purely a point scorer, perhaps that's where we see things differently. Offense hasn't been the biggest problem for this team in a few years. People can step up to help the team win games without having to score 15 or 20 points on a regular or semi-regular basis. Last year especially, Rubio was a major factor in our second half improved play and getting KAT and LaVine a lot of easy buckets.
longstrangetrip wrote:Anybody else sensing that this disastrous 2016-7 season is turning many of us into a bunch of curmudgeons? Man, some of the recent posts here are surlier than Thibs during another loss!
Guilty as charged. The disappointment of this season so far is a heavy weight on me. Need to see some real improvement soon.
Also guilty...this season is killing me. As a board we have always been optimistic predictors, but some of our win predictors this year are going to be mathematically eliminated before the end of the month!
Winning makes a lot of problems go away! But alas, it's not to be this year.
I maintain a perspective that everyone is right - to a degree - with their favorite scapegoat. Thibs, Rubio, Wiggins, KAT.....they all deserve some blame in this fiasco of a season. How much blame is a different question and that's where the debates can get heated.
It seems like everybody is hunkering down in their respective camps and holding fast to their beliefs... more than ever. Doubling down on their pet projects...
Whether that's blaming Thibs for everything. Or Rubio. Or Wiggins. Or, absolving Rubio. Or, Wiggins. Or, Thibs. Et al.
To me, that's a sign that we're all grasping for why the team has underperformed as much as it has. It's a sign that nobody here can really make sense of why the Wolves were down 26 points to a decimated 76ers team 18 hours ago. It's a sign that another failed Wolves season is upon us.
And it's comforting to "know" the reason why... because the alternative is a helluva lot scarier.
I keep trying to determine if there have been any significant changes in this team from last year to this that could have led to us being so much worse, and I keep looking at the same guy.
(Jordan Hill)
You might be right. But I still think it's primarily a player's league and would hate following a league where a 55 year old doughy guy in a suit has THAT much clout. Not to mention, it would basically be unprecedented.
Obviously, something is wrong. And Thibs hasn't fixed it... or he's caused it. That's on him. Fair enough. But the players must be accountable too. And we must acknowledge at some point that the final 20 games in a lost season playing SEVERAL teams out of the playoff race or decimated by injuries might have given us a bit of fool's gold about our impending prospects for winning.
In a season of uncertainty and frustration, people here have actually offered legit, tangible examples of the players fucking up. I think those get ignored sometimes for the more intangible things by some posters because it's hard to accept that ALL of us were wrong in one way or another?
[Note: The elite players can overcome bad coaching. Always have... always will. If the Wolves truly have elite players... the talent WILL shine through. Always does.]
It's pretty simple, who has a better track record of winning. Ricky Rubio, our "core 3" or Tibs? Let's give me more then 35 games until we run him out of town. As Mackey would say "classic fan over reaction".
