BizarroJerry wrote:How is Sam a failure already as a few of you are suggesting? He has the same record as every other coach this year.
I guess I said that, so I'll respond. I understand what you are saying. It's just preseason and it's easy to over react. You are correct, it's probably not fair to say "he's failed". But I certainly can say he's failed to communicate a clear vision for the team and he's failed so far to give the fans a lot to get excited about with the way this team has played so far this preseason. I just think back to last year and there was a buzz and I think more people had high hopes. This year's team has more talent, but lower expectations (based on the win predictions thread). That's sort of a reflection on the coach - right?
But at the end of the day, maybe that will work in his favor. It's better to under promise and over deliver - right?
lipoli390 wrote:If the Wolves have a future as a perennial playoff team and championship contender that future is in the young athletic first round picks on the roster playing an up-tempo high octane high scoring style of basketball. Starting the 35-year old Prince does nothing to advance towards that future.
The best hope for this team long term is a dynamic wing duo of Wiggns and LaVine. That's the starting wing combination that should start the season as Mitchell initially intended. And that combination should have been given every opportunity to succeed together this season, including an extended run on the court together from the beginning. Wiggins won rookie of the year at SF. He's at his best offensively near the bucket and his ballhandling is still well below the standard for modern day NBA SGs. LaVine struggled in his 4 preseason games, but he was excellent the last 3 weeks of last season. And according to Sam himself, LaVine has been the team's best player in practice this camp.
Ok, so Sam has it in his head that our best hope is to be bigger than other teams at the two wing positions. Never mind that no other winning team in today's NBA has pursued that strategy and succeeded. Even if you buy Sam's baffling "out-size-them" strategy, no one on this planet can possibly justify Prince as Wiggins' wing mate on this rebuilding team just starting the second year of the rebuilding process with Shabazz and Bjelica on the roster.
Someone suggested that Sam is either a genius or a moron. Well, Sam is absolutely positively no genius!! I'm already looking forward to the end of the season when hopefully our paltry 20-23 wins will convince this organization to join the other 29 NBA teams who have no interest in Sam Mitchel as their head coach. Then we have to hope that this organization is smart and non-parochial enough to higher one of the widely recognized elite head coaching prospects around the League.
Lip, My first reaction was as vociferous as yours, but I think we need to let this play out a bit. Wiggins is unique because not only is he taller than most 2 guards, but then he doesn't really give up any quickness defensively because of his athleticism. All else being equal, bigger is better.
As for Prince starting, I think we need to see how that works in its application. He may simply be a token starter that is only in there for the first 4-5 minutes, rarely to be seen again in the rest of the half. Mitchell is preaching defense, so I can see where his thought process is to set the right defensive tone from the beginning and then substitute in his offensive weapons as the quarter progresses.
The part I absolutely disagree with is Zach at PG. Been there done that. If Mitchell is convinced Wiggins should spend most of his minutes as a 2, then he needs to move someone. That someone would be Martin.
Q - I agree with you, Bleed and others on the idiocy of Zach at PG. Bad enough that Sam isn't giving Zach a full run as SG with Ricky and Wiggins. But Sam further confirms my view of him as a dim bulb by revisiting the failed Zach at PG experiement.
The main thing that I see going on is that people assume Zach has the skills to play in NBA. The talent is there, but I am still not sure we can say he is ready to contribute. We have gone through this with other players in the past and the argument is similar. Do we give a young player PT just for development who hasn't earned it on the court? I say yes, but don't believe that we just definitely make Zach the starter. I agree we need to force feed him some PT, but right now the 7th or 8th (preferably at the 2) guy seems totally appropriate to me until he can up his on court performance.
thedoper wrote:The main thing that I see going on is that people assume Zach has the skills to play in NBA. The talent is there, but I am still not sure we can say he is ready to contribute. We have gone through this with other players in the past and the argument is similar. Do we give a young player PT just for development who hasn't earned it on the court? I say yes, but don't believe that we just definitely make Zach the starter. I agree we need to force feed him some PT, but right now the 7th or 8th (preferably at the 2) guy seems totally appropriate to me until he can up his on court performance.
Doper -- We already saw that Zach has the skills to play in the NBA from his play the last month of last season. In any event, we'll never know unless he gets substantial, consistent minutes on the floor. He's barely 20 years old with one part-time season in the NBA. And he's playing for a rebuilding team early in the rebuilding process. What does all that mean? It means he should be playing substantial consistent minutes this season to at least what we have in him as well as to give him the chance to develop. Playing the 35-year old Prince any significant minutes makes absolutely no sense.
I honestly don't think we are going to see much of Zach. He went from starter and prime building block to backup PG in one week. Ricky's going to play over 30 minutes, and Miller isn't just going to dress in civi's every night. Tyus also has to get some run. Wiggins is going to play 35 minutes, Bazz, Belly, Martin, and Prince are all going to play at the 3 some. Where is Zach going to get his time?
The only comfort I take is the situation is fluid, and will probably change week to week. I really wish he would have just stuck with the plan to have Zach start, and just given it a realistic chance to blossom. At least then we would know one way or the other. At this point I don't think Mitchell knows a damn thing.
thedoper wrote:The main thing that I see going on is that people assume Zach has the skills to play in NBA. The talent is there, but I am still not sure we can say he is ready to contribute. We have gone through this with other players in the past and the argument is similar. Do we give a young player PT just for development who hasn't earned it on the court? I say yes, but don't believe that we just definitely make Zach the starter. I agree we need to force feed him some PT, but right now the 7th or 8th (preferably at the 2) guy seems totally appropriate to me until he can up his on court performance.
Doper -- We already saw that Zach has the skills to play in the NBA from his play the last month of last season. In any event, we'll never know unless he gets substantial, consistent minutes on the floor. He's barely 20 years old with one part-time season in the NBA. And he's playing for a rebuilding team early in the rebuilding process. What does all that mean? It means he should be playing substantial consistent minutes this season to at least what we have in him as well as to give him the chance to develop. Playing the 35-year old Prince any significant minutes makes absolutely no sense.
I want him to get substantial minutes too. I just don't think "absolutely no sense" is the right response to giving Tay minutes at the beginning of this season. Honestly if it last more than a month I will question the strategy too. But to give players an on the court example of the effort you expect of them is a teaching opportunity. It is a long season. I hope Zach will blossom, and suspect he will get significant minutes. But I have no problem putting some of these kids egos in check for their long term development. If that is the rationale and plan. If that is not his plan, then I agree that it is completely insane.
thedoper wrote:The main thing that I see going on is that people assume Zach has the skills to play in NBA. The talent is there, but I am still not sure we can say he is ready to contribute. We have gone through this with other players in the past and the argument is similar. Do we give a young player PT just for development who hasn't earned it on the court? I say yes, but don't believe that we just definitely make Zach the starter. I agree we need to force feed him some PT, but right now the 7th or 8th (preferably at the 2) guy seems totally appropriate to me until he can up his on court performance.
Well, this is a question we've debated in the past. I am fairly open minded about player development and believe there are many ways a player can grow. Then you have other opinions (I'll cite Khans here because he was so damn adamant about it) that suggest a player MUST have a minimum of 18 minutes per game as a rookie or 2nd year guy to ever have a chance at developing into a plus player.
The fact is everyone's different and players can grow and gain experience in a variety of ways (including the D-League by the way).
As for Zach, I'm with you. He was a long-game kind of pick in my opinion that would take years to properly develop. So if we didn't have so many injuries last year, I would have been perfectly fine with him splitting his time between the D-league and the Wolves.
As for this year, I was perfectly fine with him being our backup 2. But then Sam kind of went and made a mess of the whole situation....
BizarroJerry wrote:How is Sam a failure already as a few of you are suggesting? He has the same record as every other coach this year.
I guess I said that, so I'll respond. I understand what you are saying. It's just preseason and it's easy to over react. You are correct, it's probably not fair to say "he's failed". But I certainly can say he's failed to communicate a clear vision for the team and he's failed so far to give the fans a lot to get excited about with the way this team has played so far this preseason. I just think back to last year and there was a buzz and I think more people had high hopes. This year's team has more talent, but lower expectations (based on the win predictions thread). That's sort of a reflection on the coach - right?
But at the end of the day, maybe that will work in his favor. It's better to under promise and over deliver - right?
I get the feeling from watching Sam's interviews with media he doesn't feel like it's his job to be the marketing guy for this team. He is t Flip. He is an interm coach who seems like is gonna do what he is gonna do and I don't think he is auditioning for the next gig like it is totally rational to think he is. Keep in the back of your mind that Sam is NOT FLIP. He isn't a guy that's gonna be all pumping up everything because basically he is the whole franchise. Sam is a different guy. I don't expect him to communicate the vision some people are asking at times. That is undetermined. This doesn't mean I fully support Sam I am just being realistic.
BizarroJerry wrote:How is Sam a failure already as a few of you are suggesting? He has the same record as every other coach this year.
I guess I said that, so I'll respond. I understand what you are saying. It's just preseason and it's easy to over react. You are correct, it's probably not fair to say "he's failed". But I certainly can say he's failed to communicate a clear vision for the team and he's failed so far to give the fans a lot to get excited about with the way this team has played so far this preseason. I just think back to last year and there was a buzz and I think more people had high hopes. This year's team has more talent, but lower expectations (based on the win predictions thread). That's sort of a reflection on the coach - right?
But at the end of the day, maybe that will work in his favor. It's better to under promise and over deliver - right?
I get the feeling from watching Sam's interviews with media he doesn't feel like it's his job to be the marketing guy for this team. He is t Flip. He is an interm coach who seems like is gonna do what he is gonna do and I don't think he is auditioning for the next gig like it is totally rational to think he is. Keep in the back of your mind that Sam is NOT FLIP. He isn't a guy that's gonna be all pumping up everything because basically he is the whole franchise. Sam is a different guy. I don't expect him to communicate the vision some people are asking at times. That is undetermined. This doesn't mean I fully support Sam I am just being realistic.
I know you and I disagree on that Monster. I'm not sure what information you are using to base your assumption Sam doesn't have a desire to be a head coach. He obviously was motivated to interview for and become a Head Coach for Toronto. And if he really just wanted to stay under the radar at this point in his life...why even accept the promotion to interim head coach this year? He could have declined and let baby Adelman take the heat this year. IMO, if this team flops, Mitchell gets fired and we're bringing in a big name guy again to replace him.
BizarroJerry wrote:How is Sam a failure already as a few of you are suggesting? He has the same record as every other coach this year.
I guess I said that, so I'll respond. I understand what you are saying. It's just preseason and it's easy to over react. You are correct, it's probably not fair to say "he's failed". But I certainly can say he's failed to communicate a clear vision for the team and he's failed so far to give the fans a lot to get excited about with the way this team has played so far this preseason. I just think back to last year and there was a buzz and I think more people had high hopes. This year's team has more talent, but lower expectations (based on the win predictions thread). That's sort of a reflection on the coach - right?
But at the end of the day, maybe that will work in his favor. It's better to under promise and over deliver - right?
I get the feeling from watching Sam's interviews with media he doesn't feel like it's his job to be the marketing guy for this team. He is t Flip. He is an interm coach who seems like is gonna do what he is gonna do and I don't think he is auditioning for the next gig like it is totally rational to think he is. Keep in the back of your mind that Sam is NOT FLIP. He isn't a guy that's gonna be all pumping up everything because basically he is the whole franchise. Sam is a different guy. I don't expect him to communicate the vision some people are asking at times. That is undetermined. This doesn't mean I fully support Sam I am just being realistic.
I know you and I disagree on that Monster. I'm not sure what information you are using to base your assumption Sam doesn't have a desire to be a head coach. He obviously was motivated to interview for and become a Head Coach for Toronto. And if he really just wanted to stay under the radar at this point in his life...why even accept the promotion to interim head coach this year? He could have declined and let baby Adelman take the heat this year. IMO, if this team flops, Mitchell gets fired and we're bringing in a big name guy again to replace him.
Well first of all there are a few reports of media people that knew Sam in Toronot and some people more locally that say Sam is living and enjoys whatever opportunities that can be in front of him. I am not suggesting Sam isn't interested at all and I get the perspective that it makes sense that Sam is looking out for his next job but let's say he is it still doesn't change some of the rest of my points.
Sam isn't the visionary guy that's Flip or Milt but obviously as acting coach who has said he is about development that's part of his job to look at what this team will look like down the road it just doesn't seem like Sam has a lot of interest in selling anyone on that. That seems reasonable especially considering the circumstances.
Why did Sam take the job? Well when the owner who you have a relationship with tells you to do the job or asks you it's a no brainer right? Flip brought him here to help him and now Sam gets a larger role. Obviously this could be good for him to get the next shot but it's obviously not the main reason he took it. :)
