Minnesota Sports Forum

Mikkeman wrote:

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:
Holy balls, 30 million! Is that even possible on a second contract? That's 30% of our entire payroll right now! That sounds like supermax money, or at least what perpetual All-Stars get. Man, I'm regretting we didn't flip him for Paul George and go all in to win right now with KAT as the reliable cornerstone of the future.

No it is just normal 25% max with maximum annual 8% raise. It starts from 25.5 million and the final year of contract will be 33.7 million. I picked those numbers from Hoopsrumors:

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2017/03/projecting-maximum-salary-contracts-for-201718.htmlHoopsrumors link

Yeah, my $30 million number was an average salary over the life of the contract, not his first tear salary.

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:
Still, that's a boatload of money for Wiggins. He'll be making basically as much as Kevin Durant, since Durant took the regular max not the supermax he could have, right?

I'm not comfortable giving Wiggins that much money. Butler and KAT, absolutely. But Wiggins, no. He'd really better step up big time this year or I'll start pushing the "trade Wiggins" train by hand if I have to! I really hope I'm wrong, but I'm seriously afraid he's not going to be worth 25% of any team's payroll.

Yes, it is a lot of money but not as much as we might need to give for Butler. Since he has been in league 8 years at that point, I think he is eligible of 30% contract that would mean 178 millions over five years. Since KAT didn't make any all NBA team nor were voted to starter in all star game, we should be able to safely extend KAT next summer with similar deal than Wiggins is getting. Only exception is if KAT will be selected to MVP this season but if that happens, I would gladly give him 30% contract.

longstrangetrip wrote:

Mikkeman wrote:

monsterpile wrote:
LST talked about the Harden deal earlier in this thread. His post makes me think he seems to forget that Harden hadn't exactly arrived at that point. There was still questions about how good he was really going to be. Personally I thought he was going to be a star player right away the first year in Houston but I had been pretty high on him even his freshman year in college when I thought he was actually a better prospect than supposed uber stud OJ Mayo. Some people thought he was just going to be an all-star level player not the star and MVP type player he turned out to be. You can argue right now that Wiggins has proven more than Harden had although Harden showed some impressive skills at the same age. In a couple years Wiggins when LST theorizes Wiggins could be dealt its possible he will have even more value than Harden did for OKC when they did that deal and Wiggins will have 3 years let on his deal which will be pretty big since he will not be a rental. I think Wiggins is gonna make whoever is writing the checks have no problem paying up to keep him around even if it means the Lux tax. Taylor wasn't interested in paying up for old farts at the end of their primes or fringe starter types etc etc. Heck he might even be wiling to pay up to keep Teague around if this team is really rolling. Glen has been willing ot pay money when players are actually worth paying for. Lets see what happens for like 2-40 games or something before wringing our hands about what will happen 2 years from now. There is plenty to enjoy and question about on the court before we get to that.

Big difference in first seasons between Harden and Wiggins has been how much they had improved. Harden advanced stats jumped dramatically between each year. For example his PER went from 14.0 to 16.4 and 21.1 in third season. Win shares from 4.5 to 7.1 and 9.3, BPM from 1.0 to 4.5 and VORP from 1.3 to 3.2. Wiggins has had PER 13.9, 16.5 and 16.5 and win shares 2.1, 4.1 and 4.2 in his three first seasons and in BPM and VORP there hasn't basically been any improvement (BPM: -2.1, -2.3 and -2.7 and VORP: -0.2, -0.1 and -0.6)

So giving Wiggins a huge contract based on expected improvement in future look like much bigger risk than giving similar contract to Harden based on future expectations was since Wiggins has shown much less improvement than Harden had shown at same point of their careers.

Still giving 5 year max contract to Wiggins might be the correct move. At least I feel much more comfortable to give that to Wiggins now when Wolves won't need to give 4 year max contract to Lavine at same time.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not opposed to the Wolves extension. But Monster, Wig is nowhere near the player Harden was after each of their third seasons, and it was tremendously controversial in OkC when they had to trade him. Look at their comparative stats after their 3rd years:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Andrew+Wiggins&player_id1_select=Andrew+Wiggins&y1=2017&player_id1=wiggian01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=James+Harden&player_id2_select=James+Harden&y2=2012&player_id2=hardeja01&idx=players

Wig has the higher usage number and thus is the more prolific scorer, but Harden's stats are far superior to Wig's in every other category. Just take a look at offensive and defensive ratings, win shares, PER and TS%. Wig is a great scorer after his third season, but he's not even in the same conversation as Harden as a complete basketball player. I support his max contract more on potential than past performance.

Their situations couldn't be more different though. Harden was being used as basically a 6th man and was developed differently while this whole time Wiggins has been a featured player. How would Wiggins look if he was developed that way? Would he have looked different at this point? You do t have to sell me on Harden's more complete offensive game at the time of that trade. I'd been telling this board that for quite a while and I didn't look up at the advantages stats. Lol Again we aren't talking about both players at 22 we are talking about moving Wiggins 2 more years down the road when he will likely be a much better player than he is now.

Also OKC didn't Really have to trade Harden. They had options. They could have paid a lot of money to keep everyone. They could have moved some of the other supporting players and kept Harden. Having 3 ball dominate scoring types would have also been tricky. Ultimately was moving Harden the thing to do? In hindsight??? It's not clear but you can make an argument they really screwed up. You can also say they made the right move they just didn't get enough in return or the pieces they got back didn't pan out. I would say in the league now you don't trade away a top level talent to keep role players when you can get them cheap with ring chasers or draft them.

If Glen isn't willing to pay some lux tax to win a championship...well there are some not nice things I would type here but I don't buy that he won't do that. Look around the NBA we are seeing teams absolutely load up on talent not trading really good players when you have a really good team in place. On a podcast I listened to recently they said Dirk's championship with the Mavs was the last time a team built around 1 superstar won a championship and they wondered if that was basically the end of an era. That was a special group I wouldn't bet on doing that again for a while. Load up on talent and if it's good enough pay up.

CanisHoopus put up a good article on the pros and cons of the Wiggins extension.

https://www.canishoopus.com/2017/7/24/16004336/the-pros-and-cons-of-a-maximum-extension-for-andrew-wiggins-wolves-nba-offseason

I'm really worried this guy is not going to be worth the money, and it'll get exposed in the next couple years as a contract teams wouldn't want to take in a trade and then we'll be stuck with a max contract for a guy who isn't worth it. I've been through this earlier on the thread, but Wiggins really offsets his value on the floor with his terrible defense and failure to do anything other than score, and I don't see those things changing anytime soon. I don't think there have been many things I've hoped that I'm wrong on more than this one.

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:CanisHoopus put up a good article on the pros and cons of the Wiggins extension.

https://www.canishoopus.com/2017/7/24/16004336/the-pros-and-cons-of-a-maximum-extension-for-andrew-wiggins-wolves-nba-offseason

I'm really worried this guy is not going to be worth the money, and it'll get exposed in the next couple years as a contract teams wouldn't want to take in a trade and then we'll be stuck with a max contract for a guy who isn't worth it. I've been through this earlier on the thread, but Wiggins really offsets his value on the floor with his terrible defense and failure to do anything other than score, and I don't see those things changing anytime soon. I don't think there have been many things I've hoped that I'm wrong on more than this one.

Yup, I can't think of another "max" player where the gap between production/efficiency and contract value is so large. Three years into his NBA career, his value is still tied more to his potential than his actual results.

Thibs has obviously seen enough from Wiggins to believe that he is a key pillar of the future. There is no question he is a gifted scorer that should at least reach a DeRozan level of output (and keep in mind, DeRozan didn't even crack a PER of 15 until his 5th season).

Q12543 wrote:

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:CanisHoopus put up a good article on the pros and cons of the Wiggins extension.

https://www.canishoopus.com/2017/7/24/16004336/the-pros-and-cons-of-a-maximum-extension-for-andrew-wiggins-wolves-nba-offseason

I'm really worried this guy is not going to be worth the money, and it'll get exposed in the next couple years as a contract teams wouldn't want to take in a trade and then we'll be stuck with a max contract for a guy who isn't worth it. I've been through this earlier on the thread, but Wiggins really offsets his value on the floor with his terrible defense and failure to do anything other than score, and I don't see those things changing anytime soon. I don't think there have been many things I've hoped that I'm wrong on more than this one.

Yup, I can't think of another "max" player where the gap between production/efficiency and contract value is so large. Three years into his NBA career, his value is still tied more to his potential than his actual results.

Thibs has obviously seen enough from Wiggins to believe that he is a key pillar of the future. There is no question he is a gifted scorer that should at least reach a DeRozan level of output (and keep in mind, DeRozan didn't even crack a PER of 15 until his 5th season).

If Wiggins is just Rudy Gay then they will still find a taker like the Grizz and Toronto did. I was not a big fan of Gay I thought he was overrated and not a star. So in a way so get where people are coming from with Wiggins. Wiggins does less of the other stuff than Gay but so think his upside as a scorer is much higher. The Grizz pretty much HAD to pay Gay at the time. Even though I wasn't a fan of Gay I thought they probably had to make that move because there wasn't anything else they were going to do with the cap room. They took another gamble brining in Zach Randolph and to credit both Randolph and the Grizz that was a terrific move.

I firmly believe in Wiggins becoming a winning basketball player and a guy you absolutely want on your team in the playoffs. The people that are skeptical have plenty to go on but I have a hard time seeing any way that the Wolves wouldn't be able to unload Wiggins if they really needed to if he doesn't become a better player. I just don't see much downside to locking him in. Let's also see if he ends up with the absolute maximum of money he could get. I think there is a sliver of chance he takes a bit less. We will see.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/07/27/andrew-wiggins-contract-extension-minnesota-timberwolves-adidas?utm_campaign=thecrossover&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&xid=socialflow_twitter_si

If this was any other very good NBA player, this wouldn't be any news (I deserve a max contract, I'm going to be an All-Star, any athlete can be a good defender if they put in the effort, blah, blah, blah). But since this is the normally reticent Wiggins, I like this article a lot. Maybe the fire on the court will follow the (sort of) fire in his words.

longstrangetrip wrote:https://www.si.com/nba/2017/07/27/andrew-wiggins-contract-extension-minnesota-timberwolves-adidas?utm_campaign=thecrossover&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&xid=socialflow_twitter_si

If this was any other very good NBA player, this wouldn't be any news (I deserve a max contract, I'm going to be an All-Star, any athlete can be a good defender if they put in the effort, blah, blah, blah). But since this is the normally reticent Wiggins, I like this article a lot. Maybe the fire on the court will follow the (sort of) fire in his words.

The irony is that his job description, if you will, is actually narrower in scope than it was during his first three seasons. So he is basically being paid max money to take on less responsibility!

As a result, we really need to see him step up his intensity and overall efficiency as a player on both ends. No more excuses.

Q12543 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:https://www.si.com/nba/2017/07/27/andrew-wiggins-contract-extension-minnesota-timberwolves-adidas?utm_campaign=thecrossover&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&xid=socialflow_twitter_si

If this was any other very good NBA player, this wouldn't be any news (I deserve a max contract, I'm going to be an All-Star, any athlete can be a good defender if they put in the effort, blah, blah, blah). But since this is the normally reticent Wiggins, I like this article a lot. Maybe the fire on the court will follow the (sort of) fire in his words.

The irony is that his job description, if you will, is actually narrower in scope than it was during his first three seasons. So he is basically being paid max money to take on less responsibility!

As a result, we really need to see him step up his intensity and overall efficiency as a player on both ends. No more excuses.

That's my mantra for this season. No more excuses...for either Wiggins or our coach.

longstrangetrip wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:https://www.si.com/nba/2017/07/27/andrew-wiggins-contract-extension-minnesota-timberwolves-adidas?utm_campaign=thecrossover&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&xid=socialflow_twitter_si

If this was any other very good NBA player, this wouldn't be any news (I deserve a max contract, I'm going to be an All-Star, any athlete can be a good defender if they put in the effort, blah, blah, blah). But since this is the normally reticent Wiggins, I like this article a lot. Maybe the fire on the court will follow the (sort of) fire in his words.

The irony is that his job description, if you will, is actually narrower in scope than it was during his first three seasons. So he is basically being paid max money to take on less responsibility!

As a result, we really need to see him step up his intensity and overall efficiency as a player on both ends. No more excuses.

That's my mantra for this season. No more excuses...for either Wiggins or our coach.

Indeed. I'm so sick of the years and years and years of ineptitude from Thibodeau and this team.

Excuse after excuse. Year after year...




[Note: I'm less high on thibs than I was when he was hired. We've seen examples of failure in that duo role and the barking ruins the viewing experience... and the team still sucked... but it was nice to go a few days (weeks) without reading dozens of LST posts ripping him incessantly.]