Ricky is out

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

But wasn't your point that he is putting up 100-200 shots per day, so he was definitely doing his work?

Here is a question posed to Steph Curry around shots he takes per day:

Alipour: How many shots do you put up per day?

Curry: It's not a ridiculous number. I count makes, so in the summer, I make 500. During the season, depending on what portion of the schedule we're going through, I make 200 to 350. And whatever goal I set before the workout is the goal. I won't shortcut it. If I play Around the World, I have to make 10 out of 13 at each of the seven spots to move on. If I don't, I'll sit at that same spot until I do.

So the best shooter on the planet MAKES (not takes) 500 per day. And 200-350 during the season. And Rubio....arguably the worst shooter in the NBA....TAKES 100-200 per day. So if Steph is making 500, he probably shoots 700-800 per day. This is what it takes to be great. Heck, I probably shoot 150 times when I go shoot with my 10 year old at the YMCA. I can tell you....I notice no change in my shot over time....still stinks.

Rubio gets a ton of credit for his work ethic, but the reality is that Rubio needs to outwork Curry, in this example, and probably be putting up 1,000 shots per day. I certainly can't prove he isn't...but the results certainly point that way.

It probably doesn't matter how many shots Rubio puts up a day, if he still has that bad shooting motion, he's just learning bad habits

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

If any other Wolf had been injured this much and improved this little and drafted so high there would be a mutiny. It's unexplainable to me how much leverage you guys give Ricky . I really wish someone would come out and explain why the hope for him is still so high..

Because we've seen what he can do playing a full 82 games. The starting unit he led was one of the most high-powered offenses in the NBA. And what has occurred when he sits on the bench over the past few years with a variety of backup PGs is dramatic. It's very simple: We're a different team when he's on the court. That could NEVER be said (in a positive way) with past lottery picks like Foye, Brewer, Flynn, Johnson, or Williams.

I think Love had much more to do with that personally . If and when he's healthy doesn't pay the bills. Neither does his jumper or his finishing abilities. Couldn't we all make a long list of players that had one full good year and nothing else?
And still, the ifs and when's haven't brought on the wins.

Well, he had more than one good season. He's been a difference maker for us whenever he played. Our seasons both his rookie year and this past year both went to hell the second he went down. You might be the only one who continues to deny this in the face of hard evidence. You're a Ricky Rubio Denier.

I get the health concerns, as even I'm starting to get frustrated by The Worst Ankle Sprain In History That Then Led to What Could Become The Worst Quad Strain In History.....

Ugh well the whole, "different team when Rubio sits out then when he plays" BS drives me nuts. Your comparing him to the Mo Williams, Ridnours, and JJ Barera's of the world. Of course the team's going to be better when Ricky plays as opposed to when those guys are, that's why those guys are backups and Rubios a starter! Literally not one person is saying Rubio is not a better option then those backups, that's not the point at all.

And sorry no, Rubio can't be considered a "difference maker" when he's the only non rookie starting point guard outside Trey Burke and Oladipo to have never made the playoffs. Rubio get's way to much credit for being a "winner" when he's won less then most

[Carlos Danger]

Either you missed my point entirely, or I wasn't clear.

I never wrote that Rubio didn't put in his time. I was simply pointing out that dozens upon dozens of other players are putting in their time. And that a specific number like "100-200" shots is relatively worthless because you can't really quantify practice effort no matter how much we want to try... and how great of a narrative it makes for a player trying to improve... coming back from injury... taking the next step... et al.

I'm sure Rubio works hard. Just like many, many, many other NBA players. I don't care what he does to train, as long as it makes him a better player on the court. Other than a few minor upticks here and there, we haven't seen the vast improvement we're used to seeing from elite players during their first four years in the league.

Maybe that means Rubio just isn't elite. That's fine. He can still be a good player, but not a perfect one. And definitely not above criticism. And definitely not one who is beyond fans wishes that the team had a better PG to finally break the playoff drought.

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote above. None of us know what players are really doing or how to quantify practice time. There isn't a measuring scale anyone can refer to for that info. And at the end of the day, different things work for different people.

And yes, it's safe to assume most all Professional Athletes work hard. I can't imagine anyone could be a pro anything without putting in their time. And that's all I was responding to...the people who are claiming Rubio isn't rehabbing fast enough or taking enough time to practice shooting. There is nothing I'm aware of out there from a coach, teammate, scout etc. that has ever been critical of his work ethic.

I said it before and I'll say it again....anyone thinking Rubio is going to become a great scoring machine is going to continue to be disappointed. But those who accept the fact that he's a pass first guy that rebounds well and plays good defense can enjoy the fact that the team is better with him on the court. And I believe their is sufficient evidence to show the team is better with him than without him even with his poor shooting. That's just who he is and probably always will be. Perhaps there is some upside we'll see in scoring. But as someone else wrote, I think anything we get in that department is simply frosting on the cake. He already makes the team better. If we can get a PG better than Rubio - I'm all for it. But until then, this is what we have.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Alex - Ugh well the whole, "different team when Rubio sits out then when he plays" BS drives me nuts. Your comparing him to the Mo Williams, Ridnours, and JJ Barera's of the world. Of course the team's going to be better when Ricky plays as opposed to when those guys are, that's why those guys are backups and Rubios a starter! Literally not one person is saying Rubio is not a better option then those backups, that's not the point at all.

And sorry no, Rubio can't be considered a "difference maker" when he's the only non rookie starting point guard outside Trey Burke and Oladipo to have never made the playoffs. Rubio get's way to much credit for being a "winner" when he's won less then most

Alex, You do realize that the Ridnours, Bareas, and Mo Williams are also playing against other backups whereas Ricky is playing against other starters, so when it comes to +/- comparisons, it's absolutely a valid measure.

Here is the Net Career +/- per 100 possessions of some top NBA point guards (this is basically the difference they make on their team when they are On versus Off of the court):

Chris Paul - +9.4
Steph Curry - +9.1
Damian Lillard - +5.2
Kyle Lowry - +4.4
Kyrie Irving - +3.6
Tony Parker - +2.6
Russel Westbrook - +1.6
Ty Lawson - +.9

Ricky Rubio - +9.6


Now, I'm not suggesting that Rubio is the best PG in the league, as these are overall career numbers and there is always some amount of noise in the data. But you also can't tell me that this difference is solely explained by the fact everyone else had far superior backups to Rubio.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Either you missed my point entirely, or I wasn't clear.

I never wrote that Rubio didn't put in his time. I was simply pointing out that dozens upon dozens of other players are putting in their time. And that a specific number like "100-200" shots is relatively worthless because you can't really quantify practice effort no matter how much we want to try... and how great of a narrative it makes for a player trying to improve... coming back from injury... taking the next step... et al.

I'm sure Rubio works hard. Just like many, many, many other NBA players. I don't care what he does to train, as long as it makes him a better player on the court. Other than a few minor upticks here and there, we haven't seen the vast improvement we're used to seeing from elite players during their first four years in the league.

Maybe that means Rubio just isn't elite. That's fine. He can still be a good player, but not a perfect one. And definitely not above criticism. And definitely not one who is beyond fans wishes that the team had a better PG to finally break the playoff drought.

I said it before and I'll say it again....anyone thinking Rubio is going to become a great scoring machine is going to continue to be disappointed. But those who accept the fact that he's a pass first guy that rebounds well and plays good defense can enjoy the fact that the team is better with him on the court. And I believe their is sufficient evidence to show the team is better with him than without him even with his poor shooting. That's just who he is and probably always will be. Perhaps there is some upside we'll see in scoring. But as someone else wrote, I think anything we get in that department is simply frosting on the cake. He already makes the team better. If we can get a PG better than Rubio - I'm all for it. But until then, this is what we have.

In the first year of a $56M deal... I'd surely hope the team was better with Rubio than without him. That's not my concern though.

Is the team better with him than with another PG currently in college or on another NBA team? Is the team good enough to reach .500 eventually with him as a starting PG?

I don't want to compare Rubio to Barea and Brown and LaVine and Jones. Of course, he's better than them. Nobody disputes this. But, the team has been anywhere from bad to mediocre to almost average with him on the court... it's never been good. It won't be good this year. It's ok for us to ask the question if it's just dumb luck... or wonder if his obvious shortcomings have SOMETHING to do with that too...

[BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520]]

I'd like to see a little more fast breaking and lob city this year with Bjelica bringing up the rear (like Love did) and camping out beyond the 3 pt line. We don't have the 3 point shooters like other teams, so we've got to wear down opposing defenses with our youth and speed. With Pek out and Towns in, we should be able to do more of that now with Ricky. Our D isn't looking good yet, but I'm confident with Sam and KG, that will turn around.

Lloyd, where does this confidence in Sam come from?

http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Sam+Mitchell/David+Stern/New+Jersey+Nets+v+Toronto+Raptors+Game+2/UG2pw4HnuF5

Cool, it could be from that pic LST posted or just from what others have said about him. Honestly I don't know much about Sam as a coach and I was skeptical about him being the replacement. I didn't know who Dave Joerger was but he's doing pretty well in Memphis. So I think coaching is like the draft, in that it can be a crapshoot. So I'll be confident until he proves me wrong.

[mjs34]

I think there are several different viewpoints being confused in this thread.

My stance is that Ricky has to be healthy (right now!) to have any value to this team. We need him working with the rest of the players, and if he can't accomplish that we need to start planning another direction. He has essentially missed almost half of his career with injuries, and while a quad strain may seem trivial, it is more time missed.

As Alex pointed out, putting up shots with a bad shooting motion isn't fixing the problem. I think this actually points to the bigger issue, and one most of us realize might never be fixed, which is the staff. Saunders talking about being called in to watch Ricky shoot, or stating that Ricky's shot isn't broken just tells me that we have the wrong people in charge. Ricky's shot "IS BROKEN", and anyone 20-20 vision can see he literally throws the ball at the basket. Penberthy was clearly not the right guy to fix Ricky's shot if he thought it was about confidence, and not his mechanics.

Carlos, Ray Allen may not have worked on his shot while injured because he already has one of the purest strokes in all of BB. Ricky could certainly benefit greatly from working on his mechanics, and that isn't necessarily the same thing as putting up shots. Maybe that falls on the coaching staff, maybe not, but ultimately Ricky is in charge in the off season, and I have seen no evidence of significant improvement in his shooting motion or scoring ability.

As for Ricky's scoring being icing on the cake, I think that idea is fine if our goal is to be an 8th seed. However, if you want to be a contender, he absolutely has to be able to score at a reasonably efficient level.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Either you missed my point entirely, or I wasn't clear.

I never wrote that Rubio didn't put in his time. I was simply pointing out that dozens upon dozens of other players are putting in their time. And that a specific number like "100-200" shots is relatively worthless because you can't really quantify practice effort no matter how much we want to try... and how great of a narrative it makes for a player trying to improve... coming back from injury... taking the next step... et al.

I'm sure Rubio works hard. Just like many, many, many other NBA players. I don't care what he does to train, as long as it makes him a better player on the court. Other than a few minor upticks here and there, we haven't seen the vast improvement we're used to seeing from elite players during their first four years in the league.

Maybe that means Rubio just isn't elite. That's fine. He can still be a good player, but not a perfect one. And definitely not above criticism. And definitely not one who is beyond fans wishes that the team had a better PG to finally break the playoff drought.

I said it before and I'll say it again....anyone thinking Rubio is going to become a great scoring machine is going to continue to be disappointed. But those who accept the fact that he's a pass first guy that rebounds well and plays good defense can enjoy the fact that the team is better with him on the court. And I believe their is sufficient evidence to show the team is better with him than without him even with his poor shooting. That's just who he is and probably always will be. Perhaps there is some upside we'll see in scoring. But as someone else wrote, I think anything we get in that department is simply frosting on the cake. He already makes the team better. If we can get a PG better than Rubio - I'm all for it. But until then, this is what we have.

In the first year of a $56M deal... I'd surely hope the team was better with Rubio than without him. That's not my concern though.

Is the team better with him than with another PG currently in college or on another NBA team? Is the team good enough to reach .500 eventually with him as a starting PG?

I don't want to compare Rubio to Barea and Brown and LaVine and Jones. Of course, he's better than them. Nobody disputes this. But, the team has been anywhere from bad to mediocre to almost average with him on the court... it's never been good. It won't be good this year. It's ok for us to ask the question if it's just dumb luck... or wonder if his obvious shortcomings have SOMETHING to do with that too...

I think the key term there is "the team". We know Ricky isn't a high-usage scorer that can carry a team on his back in the absence of other talent around him. But the idea that somehow he's the guy that would hold a talented team back from .500 seems pretty silly to me. Could he be a problem when and if we ever get into a 7-game dogfight in the WCF or Finals? Perhaps so.

The other issue when we think about other replacement players for Ricky (Ty Lawson was a name bandied about not that long ago) is our defensive problem. This is a team whose predisposition and potential lies mostly on the offensive side of the ball. Ricky is one of the very few players that can defend at a high level, while at the same time bringing out the best of the more offensive-oriented players.

I just think that he's the right PG at the right time for this franchise. I'm not sure what other options are even practical to consider at this point.

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

Either you missed my point entirely, or I wasn't clear.

I never wrote that Rubio didn't put in his time. I was simply pointing out that dozens upon dozens of other players are putting in their time. And that a specific number like "100-200" shots is relatively worthless because you can't really quantify practice effort no matter how much we want to try... and how great of a narrative it makes for a player trying to improve... coming back from injury... taking the next step... et al.

I'm sure Rubio works hard. Just like many, many, many other NBA players. I don't care what he does to train, as long as it makes him a better player on the court. Other than a few minor upticks here and there, we haven't seen the vast improvement we're used to seeing from elite players during their first four years in the league.

Maybe that means Rubio just isn't elite. That's fine. He can still be a good player, but not a perfect one. And definitely not above criticism. And definitely not one who is beyond fans wishes that the team had a better PG to finally break the playoff drought.

I said it before and I'll say it again....anyone thinking Rubio is going to become a great scoring machine is going to continue to be disappointed. But those who accept the fact that he's a pass first guy that rebounds well and plays good defense can enjoy the fact that the team is better with him on the court. And I believe their is sufficient evidence to show the team is better with him than without him even with his poor shooting. That's just who he is and probably always will be. Perhaps there is some upside we'll see in scoring. But as someone else wrote, I think anything we get in that department is simply frosting on the cake. He already makes the team better. If we can get a PG better than Rubio - I'm all for it. But until then, this is what we have.

In the first year of a $56M deal... I'd surely hope the team was better with Rubio than without him. That's not my concern though.


Is the team better with him than with another PG currently in college or on another NBA team? Is the team good enough to reach .500 eventually with him as a starting PG?

I don't want to compare Rubio to Barea and Brown and LaVine and Jones. Of course, he's better than them. Nobody disputes this. But, the team has been anywhere from bad to mediocre to almost average with him on the court... it's never been good. It won't be good this year. It's ok for us to ask the question if it's just dumb luck... or wonder if his obvious shortcomings have SOMETHING to do with that too...

I think the key term there is "the team". We know Ricky isn't a high-usage scorer that can carry a team on his back in the absence of other talent around him. But the idea that somehow he's the guy that would hold a talented team back from .500 seems pretty silly to me. Could he be a problem when and if we ever get into a 7-game dogfight in the WCF or Finals? Perhaps so.

The other issue when we think about other replacement players for Ricky (Ty Lawson was a name bandied about not that long ago) is our defensive problem. This is a team whose predisposition and potential lies mostly on the offensive side of the ball. Ricky is one of the very few players that can defend at a high level, while at the same time bringing out the best of the more offensive-oriented players.

I just think that he's the right PG at the right time for this franchise. I'm not sure what other options are even practical to consider at this point.

The defense wasn't that good either when Rubio played all 82 games. Point guard defense just isn't that important to the overall defense. No point guard can guard another 1 on 1 really, with picks and screens and things.

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

Alex - Ugh well the whole, "different team when Rubio sits out then when he plays" BS drives me nuts. Your comparing him to the Mo Williams, Ridnours, and JJ Barera's of the world. Of course the team's going to be better when Ricky plays as opposed to when those guys are, that's why those guys are backups and Rubios a starter! Literally not one person is saying Rubio is not a better option then those backups, that's not the point at all.

And sorry no, Rubio can't be considered a "difference maker" when he's the only non rookie starting point guard outside Trey Burke and Oladipo to have never made the playoffs. Rubio get's way to much credit for being a "winner" when he's won less then most

Alex, You do realize that the Ridnours, Bareas, and Mo Williams are also playing against other backups whereas Ricky is playing against other starters, so when it comes to +/- comparisons, it's absolutely a valid measure.

Here is the Net Career +/- per 100 possessions of some top NBA point guards (this is basically the difference they make on their team when they are On versus Off of the court):

Chris Paul - +9.4
Steph Curry - +9.1
Damian Lillard - +5.2
Kyle Lowry - +4.4
Kyrie Irving - +3.6
Tony Parker - +2.6
Russel Westbrook - +1.6
Ty Lawson - +.9

Ricky Rubio - +9.6


Now, I'm not suggesting that Rubio is the best PG in the league, as these are overall career numbers and there is always some amount of noise in the data. But you also can't tell me that this difference is solely explained by the fact everyone else had far superior backups to Rubio.

So that doesn't take into account when Rubio missed actual games and guys like Ridnour and Lavine had to be the starter?