Minnesota Sports Forum

Phenom wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 11:19 pm Even if Tyus has signed here for a minimum one year deal, the Wolves still wouldn't be able to sign him to the deal he wants in a year since they wouldn't have his early bird rights. They could not give him a raise. He will be changing teams again in 12 months unless his market bombs again. Tyus was not a long term solution this way. TC did the right thing.

Tyus and Washington (and some other teams that could have traded for him) screwed up this season. Think of all the sign and trades they might have been able to do. One thing that probably influenced Tyus at this point is he has actually made a decent chunk of money already over 61 million and his vet min deal is 3.3 million. He deserved more but maybe the sign and trade options especially now if any were available locked him into something like 9 million (or even less) a year and was a lesser opportunity. Did he want to get like 5 million more to be a backup and maybe on a lesser team? If Tyus plays well again he may be able to get a contract similar to his last deal or even better and do just fine. Lesser players than him have taken min deals after messing up and then really cashed in.

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 10:52 pm

kekgeek wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 10:44 pm

KG4Ever wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 10:23 pm

I know now why he signed with Phoenix now, but had TC preferred Tyus over either Mike or RD, then we may have landed him. The question is whether both Conley and RD are both better fits here than Tyus. Conley is nearing the end of his effective playmaking career as a 37 year old making much more than minimum and RD is a pup who will probably be a liability for a year or two. Tyus is in the sweet spot of being in his prime. I think Tyus is one of the two guys I would prefer to have.

I get what you are saying but that would have been such a huge risk. Nobody could have predicted this is what Tyus market was going to end up on. Letting Conley walk or not drafting RD would have been super risky for the short term and the long term praying Tyus market and agent messes up. I mean who could have predicted Kris Dunn getting a bigger contract than Tyus did this offseason. Way too risky in my opinion to play the low % play.

With hindsight sure Tyus for the min is a better option than dilly. However that is still a debate. Tyus took playing time over coming home. Can’t blame TC for that when the other option would have been so reckless

Let’s be clear that drafting Dilly had nothing to do with Tyus choosing the Suns over the Wolves. Mike Conley was the reason Tyus chose the Suns. Tyus would have been Mike Conley’s backup and that had to be obvious to Tyus. At the same time, it was equally obvious that Tyus would be a starter ahead of Monte Morris with the Suns. And the Suns are also a better fit than the Wolves for Monte because there’s not Dilly equivalent on the Suns who might compete with Monte for backup minutes. This wasn’t a close call for Tyus.

The Suns are another Western Conference playoff team that’s improved significantly.

Totally agree that the Suns are vastly improved. They had explosive scorers in their starting lineup last season, but had no PG to set them up. Tyus greatly improves the starting lineup. And Morris, Beal, Plumlee and O'Neal is a better bench than they had last year. They have put themselves into the title picture.

kekgeek wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 10:44 pm

KG4Ever wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 10:23 pm

FNG wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 9:36 pm

Tyus is a smart guy, and it was obvious to him Phx was a much better fit for him than the Wolves. He started 66 games last season, and he knows he is an effective NBA starter...he wasn't going to have any interest in coming to Minnesota to be at least behind Conley and eventually (if not right away) behind RD. But James Jones was able to guarantee Tyus a starting PG role on Day 1. What's he going to prefer...starting at PG next to Durant and Booker, or sitting on the bench next to Miller and Minott? TC is a miracle man, but God Almighty couldn't have convinced Tyus to pass on the Suns opportunity!

I know now why he signed with Phoenix now, but had TC preferred Tyus over either Mike or RD, then we may have landed him. The question is whether both Conley and RD are both better fits here than Tyus. Conley is nearing the end of his effective playmaking career as a 37 year old making much more than minimum and RD is a pup who will probably be a liability for a year or two. Tyus is in the sweet spot of being in his prime. I think Tyus is one of the two guys I would prefer to have.

I get what you are saying but that would have been such a huge risk. Nobody could have predicted this is what Tyus market was going to end up on. Letting Conley walk or not drafting RD would have been super risky for the short term and the long term praying Tyus market and agent messes up. I mean who could have predicted Kris Dunn getting a bigger contract than Tyus did this offseason. Way too risky in my opinion to play the low % play.

With hindsight sure Tyus for the min is a better option than dilly. However that is still a debate. Tyus took playing time over coming home. Can’t blame TC for that when the other option would have been so reckless

So reckless? TC lives in the fast lane. Speaking of huge risk and reckless, I think many TC moves to date could be described that way. While I am a bit surprised at Tyus signing for minimum, I expected his salary to drop as the supply of point guards increases every year and in the new Second Apron environment most of the teams that would value Tyus had little to spend. The one thing I've pointed out as there are lots of good players available at the minimum for patient teams. So signing Dozier was absolutely stupid. Extending Moore a year ago was stupid as it was clear a year ago he wasn't an NBA talent and he was overpaid. The RD trade is a high risk one. I don't know that any other team would have offered more for Conley than we did as most teams have little interest in a soon to be 37 year old at much more than the minimum and I thought we could have gotten him signed more cheaply. I won't quibble too much as I do like Conley, but had we signed him for $5 or $6 M a year, I'm curious would we have had the money to offer Tyus a comparable salary? Had we not made RD trade, we might have had more money to spend as RD is making between 6 and 7 M a year, plus the draft capital we regained might have opened up other options in addition to Tyus Jones, like DeJounte Murray, Tre Jones etc.

FNG wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2024 7:33 am

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 10:52 pm

kekgeek wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 10:44 pm

I get what you are saying but that would have been such a huge risk. Nobody could have predicted this is what Tyus market was going to end up on. Letting Conley walk or not drafting RD would have been super risky for the short term and the long term praying Tyus market and agent messes up. I mean who could have predicted Kris Dunn getting a bigger contract than Tyus did this offseason. Way too risky in my opinion to play the low % play.

With hindsight sure Tyus for the min is a better option than dilly. However that is still a debate. Tyus took playing time over coming home. Can’t blame TC for that when the other option would have been so reckless

Let’s be clear that drafting Dilly had nothing to do with Tyus choosing the Suns over the Wolves. Mike Conley was the reason Tyus chose the Suns. Tyus would have been Mike Conley’s backup and that had to be obvious to Tyus. At the same time, it was equally obvious that Tyus would be a starter ahead of Monte Morris with the Suns. And the Suns are also a better fit than the Wolves for Monte because there’s not Dilly equivalent on the Suns who might compete with Monte for backup minutes. This wasn’t a close call for Tyus.

The Suns are another Western Conference playoff team that’s improved significantly.

Totally agree that the Suns are vastly improved. They had explosive scorers in their starting lineup last season, but had no PG to set them up. Tyus greatly improves the starting lineup. And Morris, Beal, Plumlee and O'Neal is a better bench than they had last year. They have put themselves into the title picture.

While I do think the Suns have upgraded overall Drew Eubanks played well for the Suns last year as the backup C so I'm not sure how much of an upgrade Plumlee is especially since I believe he has issues staying healthy. Plumlee is likely a better passer which aligns well with what they have in Nurkic so that's a good fit. O'Neal was acquired in a trade last season and played 30 regular season games. I expect Morris to play well and be an upgrade especially in terms of fit as a PG but last year Eric Gordon did what he was signed for which is to take and make 3's at a pretty decent volume.

Ultimately the adding of 2 legit PGs in Morris and Tyus to a team that basically had none is a big one. It's a VERY different situation but I remember when the Suns spent some legit money to sign Rubio (and Javon Carter) after they tried to just put whatever next to Booker and have him also play PG and it produced 19 wins. Lol There were other reasons they were better but having upgraded PG play was likely one of them in addition to a better coach. Speaking of which another consideration is will Bud be a better coach for this group than Vogel? We will see.

Monster wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2024 9:06 am

FNG wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2024 7:33 am

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 10:52 pm

Let’s be clear that drafting Dilly had nothing to do with Tyus choosing the Suns over the Wolves. Mike Conley was the reason Tyus chose the Suns. Tyus would have been Mike Conley’s backup and that had to be obvious to Tyus. At the same time, it was equally obvious that Tyus would be a starter ahead of Monte Morris with the Suns. And the Suns are also a better fit than the Wolves for Monte because there’s not Dilly equivalent on the Suns who might compete with Monte for backup minutes. This wasn’t a close call for Tyus.

The Suns are another Western Conference playoff team that’s improved significantly.

Totally agree that the Suns are vastly improved. They had explosive scorers in their starting lineup last season, but had no PG to set them up. Tyus greatly improves the starting lineup. And Morris, Beal, Plumlee and O'Neal is a better bench than they had last year. They have put themselves into the title picture.

While I do think the Suns have upgraded overall Drew Eubanks played well for the Suns last year as the backup C so I'm not sure how much of an upgrade Plumlee is especially since I believe he has issues staying healthy. Plumlee is likely a better passer which aligns well with what they have in Nurkic so that's a good fit. O'Neal was acquired in a trade last season and played 30 regular season games. I expect Morris to play well and be an upgrade especially in terms of fit as a PG but last year Eric Gordon did what he was signed for which is to take and make 3's at a pretty decent volume.

Ultimately the adding of 2 legit PGs in Morris and Tyus to a team that basically had none is a big one. It's a VERY different situation but I remember when the Suns spent some legit money to sign Rubio (and Javon Carter) after they tried to just put whatever next to Booker and have him also play PG and it produced 19 wins. Lol There were other reasons they were better but having upgraded PG play was likely one of them in addition to a better coach. Speaking of which another consideration is will Bud be a better coach for this group than Vogel? We will see.

I think the suns improved also but now they are a really small team. Tyus is small, booker is now a SF what is sort of crazy. Also who guards Ant now. Overall though I think they have improved and could be scary

KG4Ever wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2024 8:51 am

kekgeek wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 10:44 pm

KG4Ever wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 10:23 pm

I know now why he signed with Phoenix now, but had TC preferred Tyus over either Mike or RD, then we may have landed him. The question is whether both Conley and RD are both better fits here than Tyus. Conley is nearing the end of his effective playmaking career as a 37 year old making much more than minimum and RD is a pup who will probably be a liability for a year or two. Tyus is in the sweet spot of being in his prime. I think Tyus is one of the two guys I would prefer to have.

I get what you are saying but that would have been such a huge risk. Nobody could have predicted this is what Tyus market was going to end up on. Letting Conley walk or not drafting RD would have been super risky for the short term and the long term praying Tyus market and agent messes up. I mean who could have predicted Kris Dunn getting a bigger contract than Tyus did this offseason. Way too risky in my opinion to play the low % play.

With hindsight sure Tyus for the min is a better option than dilly. However that is still a debate. Tyus took playing time over coming home. Can’t blame TC for that when the other option would have been so reckless

So reckless? TC lives in the fast lane. Speaking of huge risk and reckless, I think many TC moves to date could be described that way. While I am a bit surprised at Tyus signing for minimum, I expected his salary to drop as the supply of point guards increases every year and in the new Second Apron environment most of the teams that would value Tyus had little to spend. The one thing I've pointed out as there are lots of good players available at the minimum for patient teams. So signing Dozier was absolutely stupid. Extending Moore a year ago was stupid as it was clear a year ago he wasn't an NBA talent and he was overpaid. The RD trade is a high risk one. I don't know that any other team would have offered more for Conley than we did as most teams have little interest in a soon to be 37 year old at much more than the minimum and I thought we could have gotten him signed more cheaply. I won't quibble too much as I do like Conley, but had we signed him for $5 or $6 M a year, I'm curious would we have had the money to offer Tyus a comparable salary? Had we not made RD trade, we might have had more money to spend as RD is making between 6 and 7 M a year, plus the draft capital we regained might have opened up other options in addition to Tyus Jones, like DeJounte Murray, Tre Jones etc.

The Wolves are 17 million over the 2nd apron so I believe that even if they signed Conley to just the vet min and didn't trade up and draft Dillingham they wouldn't have been able to offer Tyus any more money. In addition if they don't trade up to draft Dillingham they probably draft someone at #37 and don't dump Moore's contract which isn't a big chunk of money over a vet min but that would be more towards keeping them there. The only way to get Tyus for more money than the vet min was a sign and trade. In addition it was pretty clear the Wolves would have drafted some sort of PG prospect. They may not have been so eager to play that guy right away as Dillingham. In that case maybe they end up signing Morris back and possibly for more than the vet min. Speaking of Morris he went to the Suns likely partly due to having a chance to be a starter. Now he is likely gonna be a backup again. Kinda sucks for him.

I'll add this...while I love Tyus Jones and getting him for nothing would have been a heck of an outcome I'm not sure he would have been the answer long term at PG either. The Wolves did need another bucket getter. Could they have found that somewhere else other than trading up for Dillingham? Yes that's possible (nobody here thought Tyus was gonna sign for the vet min) but there is risk in not making a move sooner rather than later. If I was running a team I know one of the issues I would have is being too willing to wait and see what happens. I would probably get some great deals in FA but I may miss out on some good opportunities for higher quality players sometimes. Connelly basically went all in on Dillingham. If he turns out to be the player they hope he is (even if it's not right away) then it will be a genius move. We will see.

kekgeek wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2024 9:37 am

Monster wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2024 9:06 am

FNG wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2024 7:33 am

Totally agree that the Suns are vastly improved. They had explosive scorers in their starting lineup last season, but had no PG to set them up. Tyus greatly improves the starting lineup. And Morris, Beal, Plumlee and O'Neal is a better bench than they had last year. They have put themselves into the title picture.

While I do think the Suns have upgraded overall Drew Eubanks played well for the Suns last year as the backup C so I'm not sure how much of an upgrade Plumlee is especially since I believe he has issues staying healthy. Plumlee is likely a better passer which aligns well with what they have in Nurkic so that's a good fit. O'Neal was acquired in a trade last season and played 30 regular season games. I expect Morris to play well and be an upgrade especially in terms of fit as a PG but last year Eric Gordon did what he was signed for which is to take and make 3's at a pretty decent volume.

Ultimately the adding of 2 legit PGs in Morris and Tyus to a team that basically had none is a big one. It's a VERY different situation but I remember when the Suns spent some legit money to sign Rubio (and Javon Carter) after they tried to just put whatever next to Booker and have him also play PG and it produced 19 wins. Lol There were other reasons they were better but having upgraded PG play was likely one of them in addition to a better coach. Speaking of which another consideration is will Bud be a better coach for this group than Vogel? We will see.

I think the suns improved also but now they are a really small team. Tyus is small, booker is now a SF what is sort of crazy. Also who guards Ant now. Overall though I think they have improved and could be scary

I don't think the Suns have to start Booker at SF. I am not sure who will be the starting SF, Beal, Booker or Royce O'Neal. Their best lineup might actually make Beal the sixth man and start Royce at SF as he is a good defender. I've heard Dunn is a good defender and JO isn't bad either, so it wouldn't surprise if one of these three guys cracks the starting lineup to provide a good defender in the lineup and I think they are all capable of playing 2-4.
PG: Tyus/Monte
SG: Booker/Beal
SF: Royce/Grayson Allen/Ryan Dunn
PF: Durant/Okogie/Lidell
C: Nurkic/Plumlee/Bol

There is a lot of positional versatility among the backups as Bol, Okogie, Allen, Dunn, O'Neill could slot into different spots.

KG4Ever wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2024 4:03 pm

kekgeek wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2024 9:37 am

Monster wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2024 9:06 am

While I do think the Suns have upgraded overall Drew Eubanks played well for the Suns last year as the backup C so I'm not sure how much of an upgrade Plumlee is especially since I believe he has issues staying healthy. Plumlee is likely a better passer which aligns well with what they have in Nurkic so that's a good fit. O'Neal was acquired in a trade last season and played 30 regular season games. I expect Morris to play well and be an upgrade especially in terms of fit as a PG but last year Eric Gordon did what he was signed for which is to take and make 3's at a pretty decent volume.

Ultimately the adding of 2 legit PGs in Morris and Tyus to a team that basically had none is a big one. It's a VERY different situation but I remember when the Suns spent some legit money to sign Rubio (and Javon Carter) after they tried to just put whatever next to Booker and have him also play PG and it produced 19 wins. Lol There were other reasons they were better but having upgraded PG play was likely one of them in addition to a better coach. Speaking of which another consideration is will Bud be a better coach for this group than Vogel? We will see.

I think the suns improved also but now they are a really small team. Tyus is small, booker is now a SF what is sort of crazy. Also who guards Ant now. Overall though I think they have improved and could be scary

I don't think the Suns have to start Booker at SF. I am not sure who will be the starting SF, Beal, Booker or Royce O'Neal. Their best lineup might actually make Beal the sixth man and start Royce at SF as he is a good defender. I've heard Dunn is a good defender and JO isn't bad either, so it wouldn't surprise if one of these three guys cracks the starting lineup to provide a good defender in the lineup and I think they are all capable of playing 2-4.
PG: Tyus/Monte
SG: Booker/Beal
SF: Royce/Grayson Allen/Ryan Dunn
PF: Durant/Okogie/Lidell
C: Nurkic/Plumlee/Bol

There is a lot of positional versatility among the backups as Bol, Okogie, Allen, Dunn, O'Neill could slot into different spots.

Beal is certainly not going to start at SF he is pretty small.

Liddell will be waived unless they find some team that wants him to save them money.

While I think the point of them being small (they also don’t have a lot of proven size outside the top 4 “bigs”) might still be somewhat true you are right the Suns do have a lot of options and I can see a scenario where Morris gets squeezed and doesn’t play much when everyone is healthy. Grayson Allen is a pretty good complimentary player idk how he isn’t gonna see at least 25mpg.

Monster wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 7:47 am

KG4Ever wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2024 4:03 pm

kekgeek wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2024 9:37 am

I think the suns improved also but now they are a really small team. Tyus is small, booker is now a SF what is sort of crazy. Also who guards Ant now. Overall though I think they have improved and could be scary

I don't think the Suns have to start Booker at SF. I am not sure who will be the starting SF, Beal, Booker or Royce O'Neal. Their best lineup might actually make Beal the sixth man and start Royce at SF as he is a good defender. I've heard Dunn is a good defender and JO isn't bad either, so it wouldn't surprise if one of these three guys cracks the starting lineup to provide a good defender in the lineup and I think they are all capable of playing 2-4.
PG: Tyus/Monte
SG: Booker/Beal
SF: Royce/Grayson Allen/Ryan Dunn
PF: Durant/Okogie/Lidell
C: Nurkic/Plumlee/Bol

There is a lot of positional versatility among the backups as Bol, Okogie, Allen, Dunn, O'Neill could slot into different spots.

Beal is certainly not going to start at SF he is pretty small.

Liddell will be waived unless they find some team that wants him to save them money.

While I think the point of them being small (they also don’t have a lot of proven size outside the top 4 “bigs”) might still be somewhat true you are right the Suns do have a lot of options and I can see a scenario where Morris gets squeezed and doesn’t play much when everyone is healthy. Grayson Allen is a pretty good complimentary player idk how he isn’t gonna see at least 25mpg.

Yeah, Grayson Allen may not be very likable, but he is the perfect complement to Durant/Booker. He gets so many open looks with defenses concentrating on the big 2, and he knocks them down...46% on threes last season. And he may get even more good looks with a true PG like Jones on the court. I think Allen definitely starts at SF. I agree the Suns may be a little small, but they will have a terrific offense.

Best case to get Tyus on the Wolves longer term would have been Washington signing him to a long term deal in the 10 million a year range and keep him for a year. Wolves win a title this year, Conley gets his ring and decides to retire. The Wolves trade Conley and 2nd round picks to Washington for Conley who than retires.