Minnesota Sports Forum

rapsuperstar31 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 10:59 am Ayo in the last 4 games, 19/8/5.5 on 50/47.3/90 and a +53. Love the rebounding, and for those that were worried about his on/off net rating coming in, he has been really good.

rapsuperstar31 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 10:38 am

AussieWolf3 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 10:17 am

Wolvesfan21 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 10:07 am

I was calling for Ant to be MVP, so my expectations of him are to the highest level. Probably unrealistically so at this age. However you have to admit despite his amazing ability to score and he is the teams best player, he does have quite large weaknesses during the regular season which "may" carry over into the playoffs. Obviously playing better defense and playing with more pace are the two that are obvious.

Do I even expect elite defense? No just avg during the regular season and I don't think he is. Elite pace? No but at times, sure and he obviously could play quicker. He could be even more effective and an unstoppable monster if he looked at TJ from last year, Ayo or Bones now and how they just gash the D in transition. Think prime LeBron, prime Giannis, even Ben Simmons. The most helpless feeling is watching one of those guys barrel down on your defense and how unstoppable they are/were.

If he didn't have that ability, I wouldn't question his deficiencies. But he can be the best player in the NBA so the most lofty of all goals is achievable.

I agree with everything you said above actually. My first post was obviously hyperbole, but the point is still there which is that Ant, like every player in the NBA, can't be all of these things. Even the best players aren't all of those things.

I'm just getting frustrated with the constant chipping about Ant's OFFENSE when the reality is that he's an elite offensive player.

The team currently has an on/off offensive rating of +5.5 with Ant, which is down from the upper 6's before his time out. He's a phenomenal offensive players and lifts the teams offense.
The problem?
The on/off for defense is -7. As in, they allow 7 less points per 100 possession in the difference between Ant being on the floor vs being off of it.

That's unacceptable for a star level player with the ability to play defense like Ant can, it's completely unacceptable and it is the only real barrier between him being a single team's "guy" versus being THE GUY.

You guys love your on/off numbers. Guess when Joker was positive in on/off the last game we played Denver, it was the 90 seconds he came into the game in the 4th quarter before Ant came in and Denver went on a little 6-0 run. Take that 6-0 run out and he was a - player on the night. It is a huge advantage to this team that our unit in the first 5 minutes of the 2nd and 4th quarter is able to play really well when the other teams best players are out of the game improving their +- on/off numbers. The fact that Bones can drop 10 points when Murray and Joker were both on the bench in the 2nd quarter and put us back on track is a great thing for the team, not a negative thing for the starters who are fighting the best players in the league night in and night out in their minutes.

Defensively, I'm waiting on my final verdict of Ant there for the playoffs. I believe it was Dane (one of the podcast I listened to) that said Ant was in I think he said predicted 87% on defense whenever he played next to Mike in the starting lineup. I really do feel the future of this team (possibly as early as next season) is going to be smaller ball, where Jaden is playing pf and Ant is more sg/sf with another point guard in the lineup. I'm waiting to see just how much Ant can improve fully locked in on defense in the playoffs, because it's pretty obvious he is holding back some as more ball handling has been thrust onto him.

AussieWolf3 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 11:34 am

rapsuperstar31 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 10:38 am

AussieWolf3 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 10:17 am

I agree with everything you said above actually. My first post was obviously hyperbole, but the point is still there which is that Ant, like every player in the NBA, can't be all of these things. Even the best players aren't all of those things.

I'm just getting frustrated with the constant chipping about Ant's OFFENSE when the reality is that he's an elite offensive player.

The team currently has an on/off offensive rating of +5.5 with Ant, which is down from the upper 6's before his time out. He's a phenomenal offensive players and lifts the teams offense.
The problem?
The on/off for defense is -7. As in, they allow 7 less points per 100 possession in the difference between Ant being on the floor vs being off of it.

That's unacceptable for a star level player with the ability to play defense like Ant can, it's completely unacceptable and it is the only real barrier between him being a single team's "guy" versus being THE GUY.

You guys love your on/off numbers. Guess when Joker was positive in on/off the last game we played Denver, it was the 90 seconds he came into the game in the 4th quarter before Ant came in and Denver went on a little 6-0 run. Take that 6-0 run out and he was a - player on the night. It is a huge advantage to this team that our unit in the first 5 minutes of the 2nd and 4th quarter is able to play really well when the other teams best players are out of the game improving their +- on/off numbers. The fact that Bones can drop 10 points when Murray and Joker were both on the bench in the 2nd quarter and put us back on track is a great thing for the team, not a negative thing for the starters who are fighting the best players in the league night in and night out in their minutes.

Defensively, I'm waiting on my final verdict of Ant there for the playoffs. I believe it was Dane (one of the podcast I listened to) that said Ant was in I think he said predicted 87% on defense whenever he played next to Mike in the starting lineup. I really do feel the future of this team (possibly as early as next season) is going to be smaller ball, where Jaden is playing pf and Ant is more sg/sf with another point guard in the lineup. I'm waiting to see just how much Ant can improve fully locked in on defense in the playoffs, because it's pretty obvious he is holding back some as more ball handling has been thrust onto him.

Ok 1, your describing plus/minus numbers which confusingly is different the on/off numbers I cited above.

Plus minus describes what happens while that players is the game. On/off is the net difference between what the team does when they're on and when they're off multiplied to a factor of 100 possessions. You're also citing one game which is nearly meaningless for either metric.

2nd, I actually don't really like on/off numbers cause they are very bad at providing context. However Ant's net on/off is negative and is instark contrast to every other superstar in the league. I wasn't trying to make a hyper granular point, but a broad one- which is that Ant has too often been a poor defender specifically off ball.

Watch Shai the next time you see the Thunder. The difference in how he reacts and pays attention defensively off ball is night and day from Edwards. The fact that Ant can play lock down iso defense for 3 possessions in a game doesn't really matter that much to me when he gives up 5 back door cuts in a row against the Clippers. He can do better it's that simple and he needs to.

60WinTim wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 11:30 am

rapsuperstar31 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 10:59 am Ayo in the last 4 games, 19/8/5.5 on 50/47.3/90 and a +53. Love the rebounding, and for those that were worried about his on/off net rating coming in, he has been really good.

Yeah, Ayo has been great. He has grabbed this opportunity as a starter and run with it! As Q has mentioned, Finch has got to consider keeping Ayo as the starter when ANT returns (Donte comes off the bench).

Which brings me to comment on all these anti-ANT takes lately. Remember that this season is one big experiment by Finch -- ANT as the LEAD GUARD. I will side with the anti-ANT folks that this experiment has had mixed results. ANT might have boosted many of his numbers, but it can be argued he has not really lifted his teammates as a result. Just look at his assist numbers which are down -- you would expect his assist numbers to rise if he were a legit LEAD GUARD. But don't blame ANT! It's a Finch decision to force fit ANT into this role.

The talk in the preseason was Conley would be the primary ball handler to bring the ball up the court. That fell flat on its face when Finch opted to start Donte instead of Mike! But instead of Donte being the chief ball handler, that responsibility was placed on ANT. It's obvious Ayo is more PG-ish than Donte, and Finch clearly relies on Ayo as the de-facto PG since ANT's injury. It sure seems like keeping a PG next to ANT once he returns could unlock the offense more than merely ANT and Randle taking turns initiating the offense.

Will Finch make such a significant move of starting Ayo alongside ANT? I have my doubts, but it sure seems like a logical move.

rapsuperstar31 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 11:42 am

AussieWolf3 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 11:34 am

rapsuperstar31 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 10:38 am

You guys love your on/off numbers. Guess when Joker was positive in on/off the last game we played Denver, it was the 90 seconds he came into the game in the 4th quarter before Ant came in and Denver went on a little 6-0 run. Take that 6-0 run out and he was a - player on the night. It is a huge advantage to this team that our unit in the first 5 minutes of the 2nd and 4th quarter is able to play really well when the other teams best players are out of the game improving their +- on/off numbers. The fact that Bones can drop 10 points when Murray and Joker were both on the bench in the 2nd quarter and put us back on track is a great thing for the team, not a negative thing for the starters who are fighting the best players in the league night in and night out in their minutes.

Defensively, I'm waiting on my final verdict of Ant there for the playoffs. I believe it was Dane (one of the podcast I listened to) that said Ant was in I think he said predicted 87% on defense whenever he played next to Mike in the starting lineup. I really do feel the future of this team (possibly as early as next season) is going to be smaller ball, where Jaden is playing pf and Ant is more sg/sf with another point guard in the lineup. I'm waiting to see just how much Ant can improve fully locked in on defense in the playoffs, because it's pretty obvious he is holding back some as more ball handling has been thrust onto him.

Ok 1, your describing plus/minus numbers which confusingly is different the on/off numbers I cited above.

Plus minus describes what happens while that players is the game. On/off is the net difference between what the team does when they're on and when they're off multiplied to a factor of 100 possessions. You're also citing one game which is nearly meaningless for either metric.

2nd, I actually don't really like on/off numbers cause they are very bad at providing context. However Ant's net on/off is negative and is instark contrast to every other superstar in the league. I wasn't trying to make a hyper granular point, but a broad one- which is that Ant has too often been a poor defender specifically off ball.

Watch Shai the next time you see the Thunder. The difference in how he reacts and pays attention defensively off ball is night and day from Edwards. The fact that Ant can play lock down iso defense for 3 possessions in a game doesn't really matter that much to me when he gives up 5 back door cuts in a row against the Clippers. He can do better it's that simple and he needs to.

If you are playing lesser players in the first 5 minutes of the 2nd and 4th quarter...your defense (part of net rating) is going to be better not guarding Joker, SGA, Wemby, Tatum, Luka etc.

AussieWolf3 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 11:43 am

60WinTim wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 11:30 am

rapsuperstar31 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 10:59 am Ayo in the last 4 games, 19/8/5.5 on 50/47.3/90 and a +53. Love the rebounding, and for those that were worried about his on/off net rating coming in, he has been really good.

Yeah, Ayo has been great. He has grabbed this opportunity as a starter and run with it! As Q has mentioned, Finch has got to consider keeping Ayo as the starter when ANT returns (Donte comes off the bench).

Which brings me to comment on all these anti-ANT takes lately. Remember that this season is one big experiment by Finch -- ANT as the LEAD GUARD. I will side with the anti-ANT folks that this experiment has had mixed results. ANT might have boosted many of his numbers, but it can be argued he has not really lifted his teammates as a result. Just look at his assist numbers which are down -- you would expect his assist numbers to rise if he were a legit LEAD GUARD. But don't blame ANT! It's a Finch decision to force fit ANT into this role.

The talk in the preseason was Conley would be the primary ball handler to bring the ball up the court. That fell flat on its face when Finch opted to start Donte instead of Mike! But instead of Donte being the chief ball handler, that responsibility was placed on ANT. It's obvious Ayo is more PG-ish than Donte, and Finch clearly relies on Ayo as the de-facto PG since ANT's injury. It sure seems like keeping a PG next to ANT once he returns could unlock the offense more than merely ANT and Randle taking turns initiating the offense.

Will Finch make such a significant move of starting Ayo alongside ANT? I have my doubts, but it sure seems like a logical move.

The reason his assist number are down is because Julius has the role as lead playmaker/facilitator. Ant is the lead guard, but he isn't being tasked as being the teams facilitator.
Imo the biggest mistake with this roster is trusting Julius with this role. He's a good point forward but hes still only best as a secondary creator. Since Randle joined the team Ant averages 5 assist per 75 possessions without Julius on the floor. A full 1 assist higher than when they share the floor. It's not an elite number by any means but when he is asked to the kid can be a playmaker.

Best case scenario the team can bring in a Stephon Castle type to play next to Ant... But thats not happening, and the next best way to build this roster around Ant is to keep leaning into him developing as a point guard and live with the results

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 8:49 am

FNG wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 7:43 am

AbeVigodaLive wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2026 11:54 pm Abe's "Man, I've watched a lot of basketball over the past 48+ hours" DVR Review:

- Won with defense. And grit.

- Edwards isn't even around the team right now. It's gonna be interesting to see how everything flows when he returns... because this is a very different type of team. They're playing hard. They care about the little things defensively. They're playing with force on defense.

- I feel like the Bones Hyland experience is specifically designed to be used without seat belts... so I'll just say I'm enjoying it for now. But I'm looking for something to grab quite a bit of the time still. Fortunately, those guys offer great value off the bench and can win games when they're on.

- Wolves did a great job running the Celtics off the line. They took only 33 attempts. They average 43 attempts. And the Wolves pushed them out so far that a couple were closer to 30 feet during the big run. Just great work from the Wolves defense.

- Big longtime Celtics fan. Bigger Wolves fan. Good to see the streak end.

This was a terrific win. Not only did we beat arguably the best team in the East on their court by 10, but we also played at both ends of the court in a manner many of us here enjoy...getting out on the break on offense, moving the ball when we are in the half court, and maximum effort on defense. And while Ju is being fairly ripped here for his poor shooting game, I thought his hustle and toughness on defense set the stage for a great team effort defensive game. And he and Rudy listened to the verbal spanking they got from Finchy after the Portland game and hit the boards nicely.

But then you have to dampen my blissful mood this morning, Abe, by asking how everything will flow when Ant returns. I think you know the answer there...we'll go back to the same plodding (but admittedly often effective) half court offense, and back to the meh defensive effort we have grown accustomed to this season. A few times last night I blurred my eyes and dreamed about Ant fitting into the style of play we all enjoyed last night as opposed to the rest of the team fitting into his style, and even with blurred eyes I just couldn't see it. This team always adjusts to the way its star likes to play, not the way its coach wants them to play. And it's fine, I guess, and often effective...just not as fun as games like this, or the Milwaukee win that Ant also missed. I think we are who we are always going to be when Ant is playing, and as a Wolves fan,
I need to learn to accept and enjoy it (but also to really enjoy the high energy we bring in the games Ant misses).

I love the twin +26's Naz and Bones delivered last night, but I thought the story of this game was Ayo...at both ends. He plays like an animal that has been let out of his cage when he replaces Ant in the starting lineup. How many times did we get to watch him in the open court finishing at the rim most of the time? And his defense was about the best I have seen this season. He's fitting in well here and I think he will continue to bring a spark off the bench when Ant returns.

Bones hit some big buckets too. He and DiVo can be so streaky, but it seems like one of them is usually making his shots...last night it was Bones as Donte had a poor shooting night. I'm not going to get down on Donte though...he brought the same defensive disruptive energy he seems to bring every night.

What a win! Next we have two tough home games coming up against Houston and Detroit that we have to win to ensure not dropping into play in contention. We'll be slight favorites in both games, but I think we're going to need the same effort we brought tonight to go 2-0.

The Wolves are 9th in pace of play this year and Ant has picked up his pace since last season, although still slower than the likes of Ayo, DDV, and Bones. So not only is it possible to play faster with Ant in the rotation, it's actually the reality. Ant has shown he's willing to go along for the ride if others are getting out and running.

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 12:18 pm

AussieWolf3 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 11:43 am

60WinTim wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 11:30 am

Yeah, Ayo has been great. He has grabbed this opportunity as a starter and run with it! As Q has mentioned, Finch has got to consider keeping Ayo as the starter when ANT returns (Donte comes off the bench).

Which brings me to comment on all these anti-ANT takes lately. Remember that this season is one big experiment by Finch -- ANT as the LEAD GUARD. I will side with the anti-ANT folks that this experiment has had mixed results. ANT might have boosted many of his numbers, but it can be argued he has not really lifted his teammates as a result. Just look at his assist numbers which are down -- you would expect his assist numbers to rise if he were a legit LEAD GUARD. But don't blame ANT! It's a Finch decision to force fit ANT into this role.

The talk in the preseason was Conley would be the primary ball handler to bring the ball up the court. That fell flat on its face when Finch opted to start Donte instead of Mike! But instead of Donte being the chief ball handler, that responsibility was placed on ANT. It's obvious Ayo is more PG-ish than Donte, and Finch clearly relies on Ayo as the de-facto PG since ANT's injury. It sure seems like keeping a PG next to ANT once he returns could unlock the offense more than merely ANT and Randle taking turns initiating the offense.

Will Finch make such a significant move of starting Ayo alongside ANT? I have my doubts, but it sure seems like a logical move.

The reason his assist number are down is because Julius has the role as lead playmaker/facilitator. Ant is the lead guard, but he isn't being tasked as being the teams facilitator.
Imo the biggest mistake with this roster is trusting Julius with this role. He's a good point forward but hes still only best as a secondary creator. Since Randle joined the team Ant averages 5 assist per 75 possessions without Julius on the floor. A full 1 assist higher than when they share the floor. It's not an elite number by any means but when he is asked to the kid can be a playmaker.

Best case scenario the team can bring in a Stephon Castle type to play next to Ant... But thats not happening, and the next best way to build this roster around Ant is to keep leaning into him developing as a point guard and live with the results

Castle can't shoot and unlike Wemby, Ant needs the spacing (Wemby can just play over the top of a defense). To Tim's point, why not Ayo? He's closer to the Point Guard end of the Guard spectrum than DDV and he has literally no weaknesses. He isn't necessarily elite at much (yes, he shoots 3's accurately but doesn't do so in high volume...he needs more time and space than the truly elite NBA shooters like Ant), but he does a little of everything quite well. That doesn't mean Ant is 100% off ball, but I could see Ayo handling the ball more when in the game with Ant as compared to DDV.

Coolbreeze44 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 12:35 pm

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 8:49 am

FNG wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 7:43 am

This was a terrific win. Not only did we beat arguably the best team in the East on their court by 10, but we also played at both ends of the court in a manner many of us here enjoy...getting out on the break on offense, moving the ball when we are in the half court, and maximum effort on defense. And while Ju is being fairly ripped here for his poor shooting game, I thought his hustle and toughness on defense set the stage for a great team effort defensive game. And he and Rudy listened to the verbal spanking they got from Finchy after the Portland game and hit the boards nicely.

But then you have to dampen my blissful mood this morning, Abe, by asking how everything will flow when Ant returns. I think you know the answer there...we'll go back to the same plodding (but admittedly often effective) half court offense, and back to the meh defensive effort we have grown accustomed to this season. A few times last night I blurred my eyes and dreamed about Ant fitting into the style of play we all enjoyed last night as opposed to the rest of the team fitting into his style, and even with blurred eyes I just couldn't see it. This team always adjusts to the way its star likes to play, not the way its coach wants them to play. And it's fine, I guess, and often effective...just not as fun as games like this, or the Milwaukee win that Ant also missed. I think we are who we are always going to be when Ant is playing, and as a Wolves fan,
I need to learn to accept and enjoy it (but also to really enjoy the high energy we bring in the games Ant misses).

I love the twin +26's Naz and Bones delivered last night, but I thought the story of this game was Ayo...at both ends. He plays like an animal that has been let out of his cage when he replaces Ant in the starting lineup. How many times did we get to watch him in the open court finishing at the rim most of the time? And his defense was about the best I have seen this season. He's fitting in well here and I think he will continue to bring a spark off the bench when Ant returns.

Bones hit some big buckets too. He and DiVo can be so streaky, but it seems like one of them is usually making his shots...last night it was Bones as Donte had a poor shooting night. I'm not going to get down on Donte though...he brought the same defensive disruptive energy he seems to bring every night.

What a win! Next we have two tough home games coming up against Houston and Detroit that we have to win to ensure not dropping into play in contention. We'll be slight favorites in both games, but I think we're going to need the same effort we brought tonight to go 2-0.

The Wolves are 9th in pace of play this year and Ant has picked up his pace since last season, although still slower than the likes of Ayo, DDV, and Bones. So not only is it possible to play faster with Ant in the rotation, it's actually the reality. Ant has shown he's willing to go along for the ride if others are getting out and running.

No it isn't reality and no he's not willing to go along for the ride. He simply wants to slow the game down so he can play one on one in the half court. It's what drives him and he knows moving the ball ahead on the break is going to limit his opportunities. We need him in the half court badly, but we also rely on it way too much when he plays.

AussieWolf3 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 10:17 am

Wolvesfan21 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 10:07 am

AussieWolf3 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 9:36 am
"Anthony, can you play point guard? Anthony can you be the team's leading scorer and the best clutch shooter in the league? Anthony can you play at the extreme pace like your backups? Anthony can you play elite defense? Anthony can you be a mature leader of professional athletes at 24 years old?"

I think our expectations need a recalibration

I was calling for Ant to be MVP, so my expectations of him are to the highest level. Probably unrealistically so at this age. However you have to admit despite his amazing ability to score and he is the teams best player, he does have quite large weaknesses during the regular season which "may" carry over into the playoffs. Obviously playing better defense and playing with more pace are the two that are obvious.

Do I even expect elite defense? No just avg during the regular season and I don't think he is. Elite pace? No but at times, sure and he obviously could play quicker. He could be even more effective and an unstoppable monster if he looked at TJ from last year, Ayo or Bones now and how they just gash the D in transition. Think prime LeBron, prime Giannis, even Ben Simmons. The most helpless feeling is watching one of those guys barrel down on your defense and how unstoppable they are/were.

If he didn't have that ability, I wouldn't question his deficiencies. But he can be the best player in the NBA so the most lofty of all goals is achievable.

I agree with everything you said above actually. My first post was obviously hyperbole, but the point is still there which is that Ant, like every player in the NBA, can't be all of these things. Even the best players aren't all of those things.

I'm just getting frustrated with the constant chipping about Ant's OFFENSE when the reality is that he's an elite offensive player.

The team currently has an on/off offensive rating of +5.5 with Ant, which is down from the upper 6's before his time out. He's a phenomenal offensive players and lifts the teams offense.
The problem?
The on/off for defense is -7. As in, they allow 7 less points per 100 possession in the difference between Ant being on the floor vs being off of it.

That's unacceptable for a star level player with the ability to play defense like Ant can, it's completely unacceptable and it is the only real barrier between him being a single team's "guy" versus being THE GUY.