Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:

crazysauce wrote:https://fastbreakdaily.com/2018/10/27/timberwolves-heat-resume-talks/


Heat have new offer. Looks like its Richardson Bam and a 1st. And trying to get third team to take dieng.

As you know, that's the deal I've always wanted. But that deal wouldn't work under he salary match requirements. The Wolves or a third team would have to take Waiters, Olynyk, James Johnson, Tyler Johnson, Whiteside or Dragic. Obviously, the Heat won't trade Whiteside if they're trading Whiteside. Nor would they trade Dragic, a key piece to the the short-term success they're seeking in trading for Butler. So it would be Waiters, one of the Johnsons or Olynyk.

One deal that would work would be the following:

Wolves Get: Richardson, Adebayo, Waiters & Miami's 2019 first
Miami Gets: Butler & McLemore
Kings Get: Gorgui.

The salaries would work. But the problems is this. What incentive would the Kings have to take Gorgui? I would think he Kings (or any third team) would have to get a pick and I would hope it would not be Miami's 2019 pick. Maybe it would be Miami's 2019 second round pick, which the Wolves own. Or perhaps it would be Miami's 2023 first rounder.

I got a better idea:

How about a pick package similar to HOU's & Richardon & Waiters for Butler.

It's time to give up on the dream of someone taking Gorgui without serious picks. AW/JR/JO/DW is a decent wing rotation for the next three years. And MIN can then concentrate their capspace/picks on getting a GOOD PG and a Solomon Grundy of a Center to play next to KAT.

lipoli390 wrote:

crazysauce wrote:https://fastbreakdaily.com/2018/10/27/timberwolves-heat-resume-talks/


Heat have new offer. Looks like its Richardson Bam and a 1st. And trying to get third team to take dieng.

As you know, that's the deal I've always wanted. But that deal wouldn't work under he salary match requirements. The Wolves or a third team would have to take Waiters, Olynyk, James Johnson, Tyler Johnson, Whiteside or Dragic. Obviously, the Heat won't trade Whiteside if they're trading Whiteside. Nor would they trade Dragic, a key piece to the the short-term success they're seeking in trading for Butler. So it would be Waiters, one of the Johnsons or Olynyk.

One deal that would work would be the following:

Wolves Get: Richardson, Adebayo, Waiters & Miami's 2019 first
Miami Gets: Butler & McLemore
Kings Get: Gorgui.

The salaries would work. But the problems is this. What incentive would the Kings have to take Gorgui? I would think he Kings (or any third team) would have to get a pick and I would hope it would not be Miami's 2019 pick. Maybe it would be Miami's 2019 second round pick, which the Wolves own. Or perhaps it would be Miami's 2023 first rounder.

Reading through the article crazy sauce posted and then linked articles...I'm not sure if there is a report of what new offer is or Heatwire is suggesting that Bam was in the original offer that fell apart. Regardless that's all the source there is. I'd guess after what happened last time with talks and something getting out...there is a good chance we won't get any more real info until a deal is done when it comes to who is actually in the deal etc. If Bam was or is in the deal like Lip said you still need someone else with a decent salary to be added to make it work. Dieng going to the Kings isn't going to happen. Neither the Heat or the Wolves is going to give up the assets to make that happen. Including Waiters would work but then the Wolves would have to do some things to get under the lux tax which would probably include letting Nunnally go or trading him tona team that wanted him for nothing.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

crazysauce wrote:https://fastbreakdaily.com/2018/10/27/timberwolves-heat-resume-talks/


Heat have new offer. Looks like its Richardson Bam and a 1st. And trying to get third team to take dieng.

As you know, that's the deal I've always wanted. But that deal wouldn't work under he salary match requirements. The Wolves or a third team would have to take Waiters, Olynyk, James Johnson, Tyler Johnson, Whiteside or Dragic. Obviously, the Heat won't trade Whiteside if they're trading Whiteside. Nor would they trade Dragic, a key piece to the the short-term success they're seeking in trading for Butler. So it would be Waiters, one of the Johnsons or Olynyk.

One deal that would work would be the following:

Wolves Get: Richardson, Adebayo, Waiters & Miami's 2019 first
Miami Gets: Butler & McLemore
Kings Get: Gorgui.

The salaries would work. But the problems is this. What incentive would the Kings have to take Gorgui? I would think he Kings (or any third team) would have to get a pick and I would hope it would not be Miami's 2019 pick. Maybe it would be Miami's 2019 second round pick, which the Wolves own. Or perhaps it would be Miami's 2023 first rounder.

Reading through the article crazy sauce posted and then linked articles...I'm not sure if there is a report of what new offer is or Heatwire is suggesting that Bam was in the original offer that fell apart. Regardless that's all the source there is. I'd guess after what happened last time with talks and something getting out...there is a good chance we won't get any more real info until a deal is done when it comes to who is actually in the deal etc. If Bam was or is in the deal like Lip said you still need someone else with a decent salary to be added to make it work. Dieng going to the Kings isn't going to happen. Neither the Heat or the Wolves is going to give up the assets to make that happen. Including Waiters would work but then the Wolves would have to do some things to get under the lux tax which would probably include letting Nunnally go or trading him tona team that wanted him for nothing.

JB for JR/DW keeps them under the lux. Obviously someone would need to be waived. According to Spotrac, LD and JN are non-guaranteed. I think you waive Deng if you can.

I really hope the dump Dieng chatter stops. He's a little overpaid, but he is absolutely not a negative contract. Giving up a 1st just to unload him would be the absolute dumbest thing they could do in a Butler deal. Get the extra pick and keep him. Worst case, down the road if you absolutely need to unload his salary, you still have the extra pick to help do so.

Unless the talent coming back for Butler blows them away, the asking price should be 1 good youngish player, and 2 to 3 other solid/good assets like 2 #1s and another solid piece. Richardson, Bam and 2 picks would be a pretty damn good deal imo. All 4 of those assets are also tradeable down the line too. Picks swaps and 2nds are not a bad idea either (especially if that 2nd 1st is a no go).

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:Cam asked earlier in this thread for more out-of-the-box thinking...well, here you go.

After watching KAT in the playoffs last season and in almost every game this year, I'm beginning to think that Butler is not the guy we should be trading...it's KAT. I loved him up until the playoffs last year, but I'm becoming more and more convinced he has no heart, and is not the right guy to have as the cornerstone of this franchise. KAT brings back more in a trade than Butler, and I'm confident Butler signs a long-term deal here if KAT is gone.

But the first step is to fire Thibs...today. If I'm Glen I fire Thibs today, and watch a few games to see how the team responds. Maybe the results are so good he decides to keep both Butler and KAT. Or maybe KAT returns to the pre-playoffs KAT, and Glen continues to look for the best deal for Butler. Or...maybe KAT continues to pout, short-arm shots and ask to be taken out after airballing a three, and Glen changes his focus on who should be traded (if he hasn't already).


Butler was awful last night, but he has been a much better player this season than KAT...much better. If KAT is the reason Butler wants to leave (and I think it is), he needs to be considered for trade. I'm tired of watching him play with less passion than Wiggins.

KAT is my favorite and current Wolf, and possibly all time favorite, but I'll trade anyone for the right price. But that's a separate thread.

You and I have been around the block a few times. We have seen hundreds of guys in our lives that everyone thought they could fix. And there's been literally thousands I could name on the national level. How about guys from Minnesota and/or have Minnesota connections.

The Patera brothers. Ron Magers. Bob Stinson. Grant Hart. Tommy Kramer. Kent Hrbek. Mitch Lee. Keith Millard. Randy Moss. Koren Robinson. Spreewell. Cassell. Eddie Griffin. Percy Harvin. Miguel Sano.

The warning signs were there on all those guys, and if you ask anyone connected with them, if they had it to do over, would have sold high when they had the chance. The Wolves have that chance.

Butler going to go somewhere new that some on this board will think is a great deal, some will think is a fair deal, and some will whine about. Shortly after that, one of his coaches and/or teammates is going to do something he doesn't like. Fail to switch a pick. Take a contested shot when he was open. Talk about how Burger King makes better chicken nuggets than McDonalds. Whatever. And then JimmyBricks is going have a pouty-fit. And if that new team hasn't already extended him, they will announce they won't. And then all the guys who thought it was a great deal will be over the moon, all the guys who thought it was a fair deal will be happier, and all the guys who thought it was a bad deal will pretend they never had a problem with it, just like they never wanted Afflalo or Biyambo.

And then he can play on one-year MLE deals for a few years. Then he can tell a Sports Illustrated in the "Where are they now?" issue that he would do it all again, just like Percy Harvin, and everyone else in the NBA is the one with the problem and not him.

And the Wolves will either make those picks/players work, or they won't.

BUT HE HAS TO GO.

I don't see anything I disagree with there.

I get some of your point, Jason...that being that there are certain players that you just can't fix, and thus you need to move on. But I question some of your examples. If we can get Hrbek, Millard or Moss production out of a player, do you really care about his character. Kirby Puckett was beating his wife up regularly for several years and banging every skirt in town, but he still produced more than any other Twins player...perhaps in history. And KAT may not think Jimmy is a great guy, but Jimmy is still playing the best 2-way basketball on the team.

The fact remains...this team is awful without Butler on the court. Glen needs to fire Thibs and see if that will light a fire under this team and perhaps convince Butler to (gasp) accept a 5-year max from the only team that can give it to him. I'm willing to take that chance instead of accepting any of the awful deals that have been rumored.

Correct me if i am wrong but we couldnt offer butler a 5 year deal since we gave it to kat already

crazysauce wrote:Correct me if i am wrong but we couldnt offer butler a 5 year deal since we gave it to kat already

The two-player cap on 5-year deals only applies to the 5-year extensions on rookie contracts. Both have already been allotted to KAT and Wiggins. But any veteran, including Butler, can get a 5-year deal from their current team. Part of the incentive to trade for Butler is that the team that acquires him in a trade can then sign him to a full 5-year max extension next summer. Other teams trying to sign him as a free agent could only offer up to 4 years.

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

crazysauce wrote:https://fastbreakdaily.com/2018/10/27/timberwolves-heat-resume-talks/


Heat have new offer. Looks like its Richardson Bam and a 1st. And trying to get third team to take dieng.

As you know, that's the deal I've always wanted. But that deal wouldn't work under he salary match requirements. The Wolves or a third team would have to take Waiters, Olynyk, James Johnson, Tyler Johnson, Whiteside or Dragic. Obviously, the Heat won't trade Whiteside if they're trading Whiteside. Nor would they trade Dragic, a key piece to the the short-term success they're seeking in trading for Butler. So it would be Waiters, one of the Johnsons or Olynyk.

One deal that would work would be the following:

Wolves Get: Richardson, Adebayo, Waiters & Miami's 2019 first
Miami Gets: Butler & McLemore
Kings Get: Gorgui.

The salaries would work. But the problems is this. What incentive would the Kings have to take Gorgui? I would think he Kings (or any third team) would have to get a pick and I would hope it would not be Miami's 2019 pick. Maybe it would be Miami's 2019 second round pick, which the Wolves own. Or perhaps it would be Miami's 2023 first rounder.

Reading through the article crazy sauce posted and then linked articles...I'm not sure if there is a report of what new offer is or Heatwire is suggesting that Bam was in the original offer that fell apart. Regardless that's all the source there is. I'd guess after what happened last time with talks and something getting out...there is a good chance we won't get any more real info until a deal is done when it comes to who is actually in the deal etc. If Bam was or is in the deal like Lip said you still need someone else with a decent salary to be added to make it work. Dieng going to the Kings isn't going to happen. Neither the Heat or the Wolves is going to give up the assets to make that happen. Including Waiters would work but then the Wolves would have to do some things to get under the lux tax which would probably include letting Nunnally go or trading him tona team that wanted him for nothing.

JB for JR/DW keeps them under the lux. Obviously someone would need to be waived. According to Spotrac, LD and JN are non-guaranteed. I think you waive Deng if you can.

The deal that was discussed here was including Bam so that's what we were talking about the different ways to get there.

Deng's deal is fully guaranteed. If you click on his name in sporttrac it tells you it's is. Not sure why they have him with a different color on the salary chart but I see why you thought what you did.

Also it seems like a simple thing to do to make it easier for readers if you could spell out the names of your trade ideas unless there is an obvious exception like KBD. It doesn't take much longer and it simply is a more effective way to communicate what you are trying to say. I'm making a genuine suggestion not knocking you just saying I think it would be helpful.

I like the frameworks of the Miami offer (Richardson, Bam, #1) over the Houston offer (Knight, Chriss, 4 firsts). The Houston offer does nothing to help the team now and I just don't trust the Wolves front office to play those 4 #1 picks to their maximum moving forward. I'm also tired of watching bad basketball. Richardson and Bam are good young pieces. Getting rid of the Dieng contract would be a bonus but shouldn't be a deal breaker. Adding Waiters and Patton to the deal would match salaries. I'd do it.

longstrangetrip wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:Cam asked earlier in this thread for more out-of-the-box thinking...well, here you go.

After watching KAT in the playoffs last season and in almost every game this year, I'm beginning to think that Butler is not the guy we should be trading...it's KAT. I loved him up until the playoffs last year, but I'm becoming more and more convinced he has no heart, and is not the right guy to have as the cornerstone of this franchise. KAT brings back more in a trade than Butler, and I'm confident Butler signs a long-term deal here if KAT is gone.

But the first step is to fire Thibs...today. If I'm Glen I fire Thibs today, and watch a few games to see how the team responds. Maybe the results are so good he decides to keep both Butler and KAT. Or maybe KAT returns to the pre-playoffs KAT, and Glen continues to look for the best deal for Butler. Or...maybe KAT continues to pout, short-arm shots and ask to be taken out after airballing a three, and Glen changes his focus on who should be traded (if he hasn't already).


Butler was awful last night, but he has been a much better player this season than KAT...much better. If KAT is the reason Butler wants to leave (and I think it is), he needs to be considered for trade. I'm tired of watching him play with less passion than Wiggins.

KAT is my favorite and current Wolf, and possibly all time favorite, but I'll trade anyone for the right price. But that's a separate thread.

You and I have been around the block a few times. We have seen hundreds of guys in our lives that everyone thought they could fix. And there's been literally thousands I could name on the national level. How about guys from Minnesota and/or have Minnesota connections.

The Patera brothers. Ron Magers. Bob Stinson. Grant Hart. Tommy Kramer. Kent Hrbek. Mitch Lee. Keith Millard. Randy Moss. Koren Robinson. Spreewell. Cassell. Eddie Griffin. Percy Harvin. Miguel Sano.

The warning signs were there on all those guys, and if you ask anyone connected with them, if they had it to do over, would have sold high when they had the chance. The Wolves have that chance.

Butler going to go somewhere new that some on this board will think is a great deal, some will think is a fair deal, and some will whine about. Shortly after that, one of his coaches and/or teammates is going to do something he doesn't like. Fail to switch a pick. Take a contested shot when he was open. Talk about how Burger King makes better chicken nuggets than McDonalds. Whatever. And then JimmyBricks is going have a pouty-fit. And if that new team hasn't already extended him, they will announce they won't. And then all the guys who thought it was a great deal will be over the moon, all the guys who thought it was a fair deal will be happier, and all the guys who thought it was a bad deal will pretend they never had a problem with it, just like they never wanted Afflalo or Biyambo.

And then he can play on one-year MLE deals for a few years. Then he can tell a Sports Illustrated in the "Where are they now?" issue that he would do it all again, just like Percy Harvin, and everyone else in the NBA is the one with the problem and not him.

And the Wolves will either make those picks/players work, or they won't.

BUT HE HAS TO GO.

I don't see anything I disagree with there.

I get some of your point, Jason...that being that there are certain players that you just can't fix, and thus you need to move on. But I question some of your examples. If we can get Hrbek, Millard or Moss production out of a player, do you really care about his character. Kirby Puckett was beating his wife up regularly for several years and banging every skirt in town, but he still produced more than any other Twins player...perhaps in history. And KAT may not think Jimmy is a great guy, but Jimmy is still playing the best 2-way basketball on the team.

The fact remains...this team is awful without Butler on the court. Glen needs to fire Thibs and see if that will light a fire under this team and perhaps convince Butler to (gasp) accept a 5-year max from the only team that can give it to him. I'm willing to take that chance instead of accepting any of the awful deals that have been rumored.

I didn't mention Puckett for two reasons: I didn't know about the bad husbanding until much later, and the 2nd reason that the Twins should have moved on from Puckett earlier than they did is purely field-based. From what we know NOW about winning baseball, and with the possible exception of Thurman Munson, Kirby is the most overrated baseball player of the past 50 years. His career definitely did not stand the test of time. His OPS is no better than Corey Koskie, and the reason he made all those catches at the wall is because he was standing next to the wall when the ball was hit. And Mea Culpa: I never appreciated Shane Mack. I know Reusse did, and some guys from my college did, but I didn't.

I don't think you are being genuine about Hrbek, Millard, and Moss. No way you don't move Hrbek in Nov '87 even then. When he dived into the pile after game 7, three guys broke their ankles, and that was before every restaurant had unlimited soda refills. I'm as big a fan of Hardees-drive-thru-dui's as the next guy, and despite the gun-level power of his arms, I think you trade Millard in Feb '90. And I kid you not, when Moss blew that Gatorade bottle on the that side judge in St. Louis, I wanted him gone before the flight back MSP, and I'm sure you would have made a deal that Feb. as well.

The main difference between the Butler mess and all the other messes I mentioned: BUTLER WANTS TO GO! Koren Robinson didn't have any other options. Grant Hart wasn't dying to join the Revolution. You don't have to worry about feeling bad for firing him, he's quitting.

You can't extend him and hope he changes his mind. That has never worked. And ESPN JUST HAPPENED to be there the day he blew a gasket? As Jackie McMullen said, he is in the process of bitching (her word) his way off of his 2nd team in 18 months. There. is. no. saving. this.

Send him to Houston. Let him start shooting his mouth off about how funny Flo and the Gekko are, or how ugly Khloe Kardashian (Simpson?) is. Let him rip apart that locker room. 10 years from now, let him tell Sports Illustrated that Paul's State Farm commercials sucked and how baseball thinks about Khloe to keep from having an orgasm too fast. It will be someone else's problem, namely Morey. Maybe he'll move back to Eagan so people can stop by his house to bring him cookies and ask him what he was thinking.