Minnesota Sports Forum

Posted: **Fri Mar 17, 2023 11:58 pm**

CoolBreeze44 wrote:That's as well as we can play without KAT and Ant. We were a stupid Taurean Prince play away from a win.

Yup.

We just need to scratch our way into the playoffs or play-in and hopefully go to war with both Ant and KAT in tow.

Posted: **Sat Mar 18, 2023 12:22 am**

I'm confused, we always seem to get a Conley vs Russell synopsis on nights they both play. But strangely tonight, nothing. Hmmmm, strange indeed.

Posted: **Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:47 am**

kekgeek1 wrote:
Jester1534 wrote:
kekgeek1 wrote:Sucks being a fan of this team. Sick of hard fought losses. We need fucking wins. Just sad

At least it's meaningful games Kek that all I can say. Usually we're in lotto mode by now.

This year injury wise really makes me think year when Rubio blew out his ACL we may never know what this teams potential would be.

Sure I get that. But I'm so sick of losing. I'm ready for FNG recap of it was 2 good teams and we just lost a close one. But we have lost 4 of 5. Play in is in serious danger now. Wonder how Wambayama will look in Utah.

Just so sick of this shit. Why can't we ever have nice things. Moral loss after moral loss.

Ha, nope...not tonight. At the start of the season, SI ranked three T-wolves in the top 25 players in the Association. In the second overtime and for the final minute of the first overtime, none of these three players were available. No team in the league can be called a good team if they are without their three best players. Look at it this way...would the Association-leading Bucks be considered a good team if they were playing without Giannis, Holiday and Middleton? And I certainly don't consider the Bulls a good team this season, although they can be tough to beat when Zach and DeRozen have nights like this.

But I will say this. We played almost as well as we could have missing our three best players. I thought all of our starters were superb tonight, and our reserves provided some defensive spark. But undermanned teams just don't win on the road very often against teams that are not tanking. So I'm lamenting the Ant injury this morning and worried about when he is going to return, but I'm not unhappy about the way we played in this game.

Except Taurean Prince. I think he has been one of our most reliable players this season, and I was in favor of him getting Ant's minutes after the injury. The period he was out with an injury was one of our worst stretches of the season. But his turnover late in thefirst OT was something that we don't even expect to see from a 19-year-old rookie. I'm sure everyone of us here who understands basketball was thinking "Get the ball in Conley's hands and let him dribble until the Bulls foul him...we got this one!" But rather than moving the ball back to Conley, Prince inexplicably drove the lane and passed to...nobody? It was honestly one of the most head-scratching moments I have ever seen. And the fact that it came from one of our steadiest veterans makes it hurt even more. And frankly his 0-4 on 3-pointers didn't help either. I'll give Prince some credit for his defense during the game, but his -10 supports my take that he was clearly the goat tonight in a game we had a good chance to steal.

So now on to Toronto where we are likely to be double digit underdogs. We can only hope that Ant can returrn soon, because I don't expect the Ant-less Wolves to play like they did in this game.

Posted: **Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:01 am**

CoolBreeze44 wrote:I'm confused, we always seem to get a Conley vs Russell synopsis on nights they both play. But strangely tonight, nothing. Hmmmm, strange indeed.

Ha, strange indeed. I will add though that DLo has been very good in LA so far. It's Beasley and Vando who are playing poorly (and I love Vando). DLo shot poorly last night while Conley shot great, but Russell had a very good true PG night with 11 assists and NO turnovers...I'm not going to take the time to look it up, but I;m pretty sure we never got a stat line like that the entire time he was with us. He once again led the Lakers starters with a + 4, while Vando and Beasley were a -14 and -8 respectively. Russell leads the Lakers in on/off for the season, while he was dead last with the Wolves this season. You can't make it up...I think that defines what it means to be a long-suffering Wolves fan!

Posted: **Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:55 am**

FNG wrote:
CoolBreeze44 wrote:I'm confused, we always seem to get a Conley vs Russell synopsis on nights they both play. But strangely tonight, nothing. Hmmmm, strange indeed.

Ha, strange indeed. I will add though that DLo has been very good in LA so far. It's Beasley and Vando who are playing poorly (and I love Vando). DLo shot poorly last night while Conley shot great, but Russell had a very good true PG night with 11 assists and NO turnovers...I'm not going to take the time to look it up, but I;m pretty sure we never got a stat line like that the entire time he was with us. He once again led the Lakers starters with a + 4, while Vando and Beasley were a -14 and -8 respectively. Russell leads the Lakers in on/off for the season, while he was dead last with the Wolves this season. You can't make it up...I think that defines what it means to be a long-suffering Wolves fan!

Well FNG - I guess it's up to me to do Cam's dirty work. We actually did get a number of stat lines like that - actually better ones overall - when he was with us. Here are some examples from this season:

30p/12a/2to on 11/14 v Cavs
12p/10a/2to/7r on 12/24 v. Celtics
15p/10a/2to/5r on 12/1 v.Memphis
23p/8a/2to on 1/22 v. Rocket

OK, he had 2 turnovers in each of those game, but let's not quibble. DLO had four zero turnover games for the Wolves this season.

Here are some examples of comparable excellent DLO PG stats from last season:

15o/8a/0to on 11/13 v. Clippers
21p/11a/1to on 11/30 v. Pacers
22p/10a/1to on 1/10 v. Rockets

The list goes on with at least five more games last season in which DLO had double-digit assists, double-digit points and no more than 2 turnovers.

I obviously have too much time on my hands. Of course, my point isn't that DLO is great and should not have been traded. He had lots of 3+ turnover/single digit assist games with the Wolves just as he has so far in the majority of games he's played for the Lakes. DLO is and will remain the same player he's always been. Okogie had a weird run of hot scoring, but not surprisingly he's back to his old self as a high-energy disruptive defender who can't shoot. There is no Wolves curse; just bad Wolves management.

Posted: **Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:17 am**

Mike Conley Jr. was a -12 and Jaden McDaniels was a -15 last night against Chicago. Would anyone here argue they played poorly? Or that they were hurting the team? Or can we acknowledge that traditional plus-minus is a misleading statistic and doesn't do their performances justice?

I'm just checking because the plus-minus talk around here, especially from game to game, has largely been nonexistent for weeks. Both Conley and McDaniels had career-high games last night and should be commended for it. We know that because we watched it. I just know that the discourse would be different if it was a player this board was averse to.

Anyways, it's tough to see them replicating those performances without Anthony Edwards in the short-term. My guess is that he's out the next two weeks at a minimum. I can't imagine the Wolves will survive without him. It's tough to be a fan of this franchise.

Posted: **Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:25 am**

lipoli390 wrote:
FNG wrote:
CoolBreeze44 wrote:I'm confused, we always seem to get a Conley vs Russell synopsis on nights they both play. But strangely tonight, nothing. Hmmmm, strange indeed.

Ha, strange indeed. I will add though that DLo has been very good in LA so far. It's Beasley and Vando who are playing poorly (and I love Vando). DLo shot poorly last night while Conley shot great, but Russell had a very good true PG night with 11 assists and NO turnovers...I'm not going to take the time to look it up, but I;m pretty sure we never got a stat line like that the entire time he was with us. He once again led the Lakers starters with a + 4, while Vando and Beasley were a -14 and -8 respectively. Russell leads the Lakers in on/off for the season, while he was dead last with the Wolves this season. You can't make it up...I think that defines what it means to be a long-suffering Wolves fan!

Well FNG - I guess it's up to me to do Cam's dirty work. We actually did get a number of stat lines like that - actually better ones overall - when he was with us. Here are some examples from this season:

30p/12a/2to on 11/14 v Cavs
12p/10a/2to/7r on 12/24 v. Celtics
15p/10a/2to/5r on 12/1 v.Memphis
23p/8a/2to on 1/22 v. Rocket

OK, he had 2 turnovers in each of those game, but let's not quibble. DLO had four zero turnover games for the Wolves this season.

Here are some examples of comparable excellent DLO PG stats from last season:

15o/8a/0to on 11/13 v. Clippers
21p/11a/1to on 11/30 v. Pacers
22p/10a/1to on 1/10 v. Rockets

The list goes on with at least five more games last season in which DLO had double-digit assists, double-digit points and no more than 2 turnovers.

I obviously have too much time on my hands. Of course, my point isn't that DLO is great and should not have been traded. He had lots of 3+ turnover/single digit assist games with the Wolves just as he has so far in the majority of games he's played for the Lakes. DLO is and will remain the same player he's always been. Okogie had a weird run of hot scoring, but not surprisingly he's back to his old self as a high-energy disruptive defender who can't shoot. There is no Wolves curse; just bad Wolves management.[/qu

Don't you have something more productive to do, Lip...come over and help me shovel the avalanche of snow that fell on my deck off my roof ;-) .

The point I was making was that even though DLo had a terrible shooting night, he still did enough good things that he ended up doing something he seldom did in Minnesota...outscore his opponent when he was on the court while the rest of the starting team did not. Case in point: DLo had a minus 5.1 on/off and an expected wins added of -13 on cleaning the glass with us (by far the worst among our starters)...he's completely reversed that with a team-leading +14.7 on/off and an expected wins added of 33 with the Lakers. That's a 46 game swing in expected wins! Now, I think most people who have watched DLo over his career expect him to revert to his mean as the season progresses, but you can't ignore and have to appreciate the turnaround he has had...that is if you value Cleaning the Glass's expected wins calculation at all. To me that's Wolvesian bad luck...not bad management.

However even though I'm a charter member of the Vando fan club, I have to admit that his experience has been the reverse of DLo's. After two years of making valuable contributions to the Wolves (adding 14 expected wins), he has struggled in Utah and LA, with a combined -40 in expected wins this season. I haven't watched him closely enough to see what is different about him, but that is a pretty extreme turnaround.

The only one of the three previous Wolves that we gave up in our trades that has continued to play like he always has (spoiler alert...not good) is our own former gun-toting Malik Beasley. He's added a typical -29 expected wins to the Jazz and the Lakers this season...a continuation of the lack of value he provided us during his stint here. It's nice to know some things never change!

Posted: **Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:27 am**

FNG wrote:
kekgeek1 wrote:
Jester1534 wrote:
kekgeek1 wrote:Sucks being a fan of this team. Sick of hard fought losses. We need fucking wins. Just sad

At least it's meaningful games Kek that all I can say. Usually we're in lotto mode by now.

This year injury wise really makes me think year when Rubio blew out his ACL we may never know what this teams potential would be.

Sure I get that. But I'm so sick of losing. I'm ready for FNG recap of it was 2 good teams and we just lost a close one. But we have lost 4 of 5. Play in is in serious danger now. Wonder how Wambayama will look in Utah.

Just so sick of this shit. Why can't we ever have nice things. Moral loss after moral loss.

Ha, nope...not tonight. At the start of the season, SI ranked three T-wolves in the top 25 players in the Association.

Meanwhile, I just listened to part of a podcast that claimed the Timberwolves have 2 of the 6 worst NBA contracts moving forward.

Sometimes, teams overpay for trades. And sometimes, a trade can start off on such a wrong foot that it's nearly impossible to recover from. It simply snowballs into larger problems.

The Wolves did overpay for Gobert (which EVERYBODY acknowledged when it happened). And, closing in on one year, it's looking even worse.

Will things snowball out of control? That's the only question left.

Posted: **Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:31 am**

I feel like the +/- statistic has been largely debunked... or at least taken with a grain of salt by most posters... but it's being kept alive as something more meaningful by one single poster at this point.

Posted: **Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:50 am**

FNG wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
FNG wrote:
CoolBreeze44 wrote:I'm confused, we always seem to get a Conley vs Russell synopsis on nights they both play. But strangely tonight, nothing. Hmmmm, strange indeed.

Ha, strange indeed. I will add though that DLo has been very good in LA so far. It's Beasley and Vando who are playing poorly (and I love Vando). DLo shot poorly last night while Conley shot great, but Russell had a very good true PG night with 11 assists and NO turnovers...I'm not going to take the time to look it up, but I;m pretty sure we never got a stat line like that the entire time he was with us. He once again led the Lakers starters with a + 4, while Vando and Beasley were a -14 and -8 respectively. Russell leads the Lakers in on/off for the season, while he was dead last with the Wolves this season. You can't make it up...I think that defines what it means to be a long-suffering Wolves fan!

Well FNG - I guess it's up to me to do Cam's dirty work. We actually did get a number of stat lines like that - actually better ones overall - when he was with us. Here are some examples from this season:

30p/12a/2to on 11/14 v Cavs
12p/10a/2to/7r on 12/24 v. Celtics
15p/10a/2to/5r on 12/1 v.Memphis
23p/8a/2to on 1/22 v. Rocket

OK, he had 2 turnovers in each of those game, but let's not quibble. DLO had four zero turnover games for the Wolves this season.

Here are some examples of comparable excellent DLO PG stats from last season:

15o/8a/0to on 11/13 v. Clippers
21p/11a/1to on 11/30 v. Pacers
22p/10a/1to on 1/10 v. Rockets

The list goes on with at least five more games last season in which DLO had double-digit assists, double-digit points and no more than 2 turnovers.

I obviously have too much time on my hands. Of course, my point isn't that DLO is great and should not have been traded. He had lots of 3+ turnover/single digit assist games with the Wolves just as he has so far in the majority of games he's played for the Lakes. DLO is and will remain the same player he's always been. Okogie had a weird run of hot scoring, but not surprisingly he's back to his old self as a high-energy disruptive defender who can't shoot. There is no Wolves curse; just bad Wolves management.[/qu

Don't you have something more productive to do, Lip...come over and help me shovel the avalanche of snow that fell on my deck off my roof ;-) .

The point I was making was that even though DLo had a terrible shooting night, he still did enough good things that he ended up doing something he seldom did in Minnesota...outscore his opponent when he was on the court while the rest of the starting team did not. Case in point: DLo had a minus 5.1 on/off and an expected wins added of -13 on cleaning the glass with us (by far the worst among our starters)...he's completely reversed that with a team-leading +14.7 on/off and an expected wins added of 33 with the Lakers. That's a 46 game swing in expected wins! Now, I think most people who have watched DLo over his career expect him to revert to his mean as the season progresses, but you can't ignore and have to appreciate the turnaround he has had...that is if you value Cleaning the Glass's expected wins calculation at all. To me that's Wolvesian bad luck...not bad management.

However even though I'm a charter member of the Vando fan club, I have to admit that his experience has been the reverse of DLo's. After two years of making valuable contributions to the Wolves (adding 14 expected wins), he has struggled in Utah and LA, with a combined -40 in expected wins this season. I haven't watched him closely enough to see what is different about him, but that is a pretty extreme turnaround.

The only one of the three previous Wolves that we gave up in our trades that has continued to play like he always has (spoiler alert...not good) is our own former gun-toting Malik Beasley. He's added a typical -29 expected wins to the Jazz and the Lakers this season...a continuation of the lack of value he provided us during his stint here. It's nice to know some things never change!

FNG - Aside from pointing out the limited sample size of DLO's Laker stint to date, I'll just refer you to Abe's post on the plus-minus stat. Regarding your snow situation, I can recommend some good snow-removal companies. :)

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