Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:FNG - You've made a good case for moving DLO, but I'm not there yet. Yes, DLO failed under the bright lights of playoff intensity. But that's one playoff series. He had a terrific regular season and we can't say definitely that his poor showing in the playoffs this year would likely repeat itself in future playoff series. He hasn't had much playoff experience and he's still barely 26 years old. Future hall-of-famer, Chris Paul, has just had two terrible playoff games.

I'm in the camp of wanting to explore possible DLO deals this summer. But in my view, whether we move him has to depend on what we can get in return. So now I'll ask two questions. First, would you trade DLO (and maybe a couple 2nd round picks) for Simmons? I actually think the Nets would do that deal (probably without the 2nd round picks) in light of Ben's back surgery and the length of his contract. Second, if not a deal for Simmons, what realistic trade scenarios do you see out there this summer that you believe would be fair value for DLO and make the Wolves better next season, including the playoffs?

Bright lights...I'm not dismissing anything else Russell did or didn't do especially in the Memphis series but are we just going to forget that Russell was terrific against the Clippers in the play in game that did absolutely matter?

Definitely the bright lights, monster, and I agree he had a fine game against the Clips. But for me it was a continuation of a pattern that gnawed at me all season...DLO (and the Wolves) playing well against teams missing one of more of their best players. The Clippers were missing their best overall player (and he also is their best defensive player) during the play-in, and the Wolves did what they had to do...just like they did all season. But the Clippers were far from full strength missing Kawhi, as demonstrated by their subsequent loss to a sub-.500 Pelicans team notably also missing their best player.

I wanted DLO to show me that the playoffs weren't too big for him...that he could duplicate his season performance under the bright lights against a team playing at full strength. I was hopeful, but he wasn't able to contribute when we needed him most.

Glad to see this thread turned into another echo chamber of mistruths. The board is in great shape.

The DLO Wiggins trade made sense to me at the time because of Wiggins contract and our lack of a primary ball handler who could reliably score at the time. I look at this as a real simple issue, we need to not repeat the same mistakes and overpay DLo out of a sense of desperation. We are in much better shape as a franchise since that trade and should in no way think that DLo is our only option. That being said I the right price I do think Dlo could be a great short term option. The trio of DLo, Kat and Ant has a nice potential balance.

The weird thing about the DLo trade to me is that it contributed to us landing us Ant. If we didn't make the trade it is difficult to know where our final position lands that year and how the lottery plays out. It is random and for whatever reason, Kat's injury and Dlo's contribution (or lack thereof) in that 20 games got us Ant. For instance, if Wiggins would have had two random monster games in the last 12 and pushed us ahead of Atlanta we may never have gotten Ant. As far as this franchise goes, what happens from this point forward around Ant and Kat is the only thing that matters. Sometimes you need some luck and we got that with Ant. Dlo can be a nice complimentary piece but should be paid accordingly. Let's see how contract extension negotiations play out.

[

lipoli390 wrote:FNG - You've made a good case for moving DLO, but I'm not there yet. Yes, DLO failed under the bright lights of playoff intensity. But that's one playoff series. He had a terrific regular season and we can't say definitely that his poor showing in the playoffs this year would likely repeat itself in future playoff series. He hasn't had much playoff experience and he's still barely 26 years old. Future hall-of-famer, Chris Paul, has just had two terrible playoff games.

I'm in the camp of wanting to explore possible DLO deals this summer. But in my view, whether we move him has to depend on what we can get in return. So now I'll ask two questions. First, would you trade DLO (and maybe a couple 2nd round picks) for Simmons? I actually think the Nets would do that deal (probably without the 2nd round picks) in light of Ben's back surgery and the length of his contract. Second, if not a deal for Simmons, what realistic trade scenarios do you see out there this summer that you believe would be fair value for DLO and make the Wolves better next season, including the playoffs?

Those are great questions, Lip, and I'll get to them. I'm not demanding a trade for DLO...heck, Gupta never listens to me anyway :) . But like you, I'm hoping that management is at least exploring possible deals. If they aren't able to move him, I'll jump right back on the DLO bandwagon like I did this year. But I won't be as optimistic about the direction of the franchise. I've been wondering recently about the nature of conversations Gupta and Finch are having. Wouldn't it be interesting to be a fly on the wall? I would suspect Gupta has to be asking why J-Mac got most of DLO's 4th quarter minutes in critical game 6, and whether the lack of trust Finch showed in his starting PG is going to have a carryover effect. It's hard for me to come up with many examples (although I'm sure there have been some) of a max player being benched in the 4th quarter of an elimination game in favor of a guy who was barely a rotation player much of the season. We're kidding ourselves if we conclude that isn't meaningful. I'm guessing Finchy might suggest to Gupta that he would prefer moving DLO for some size, but that he was prepared to welcome him back next season if a suitable deal isn't out there. But of course we don't know.

Now your questions. Given some assurances that Simmons' back surgery was successful and problems weren't likely to reoccur, I would trade DLO and seconds for Simmons. Ben's reputation has taken a hit in the past 11 months and deservedly so, but let's not lose sight of the fact that we are talking about two players at substantially different levels. I like DLO, but if we could move him for a guy who is perennially in the conversation for DPOY and provides elite distributing and rebounding skills, you absolutely have to consider that deal. Does Brooklyn? Probably not. But I think it's worth a try.

I generally shy away from the trade threads here because there isn't enough reality to them...feels like playing fantasy basketball to me. But since you asked, I would like Gupta to be looking to get a starting PF in return. (I love Vando, but he's not the answer in the starting lineup). John Collins is the first guy that come to mind for me. A starting lineup of KAT/Collins/Jaden/Ant and either PatBev or J-Mac at PG would be quite attractive to me. I don't see GM's answering the phone for most of the highest-paid PF's, but perhaps Atlanta would. The Wizards have to want to upgrade at PG...would the Wolves take a chance on Porzingis with his injury history?

One thing we can all agree on...it's going to be an interesting off-season with possible big moves and a top 20 draft pick to boot.

thedoper wrote:The DLO Wiggins trade made sense to me at the time because of Wiggins contract and our lack of a primary ball handler who could reliably score at the time. I look at this as a real simple issue, we need to not repeat the same mistakes and overpay DLo out of a sense of desperation. We are in much better shape as a franchise since that trade and should in no way think that DLo is our only option. That being said I the right price I do think Dlo could be a great short term option. The trio of DLo, Kat and Ant has a nice potential balance.

The weird thing about the DLo trade to me is that it contributed to us landing us Ant. If we didn't make the trade it is difficult to know where our final position lands that year and how the lottery plays out. It is random and for whatever reason, Kat's injury and Dlo's contribution (or lack thereof) in that 20 games got us Ant. For instance, if Wiggins would have had two random monster games in the last 12 and pushed us ahead of Atlanta we may never have gotten Ant. As far as this franchise goes, what happens from this point forward around Ant and Kat is the only thing that matters. Sometimes you need some luck and we got that with Ant. Dlo can be a nice complimentary piece but should be paid accordingly. Let's see how contract extension negotiations play out.

Good post IMO.

I spent a few minutes looking back at previous drafts and remembering what various guys got paid in their 2nd and/or 3rd contract. Look at a guy like Otto Porter who got a max deal which he didn't live up to and had some significant injury problems. He could have made more money this offseason but chose to play for GS and had a nice season in a limited role. There are top 3 picks like a Okafor that are out of the league or barely hanging on. Bagley is a #2 pick he might get a mid-level type deal and that will still be based on potential. Jabari Parker is trying to stick in the league.

What I'm trying to get at is that a player can be a top pick with some promise and production maybe for that first contract off their rookie deal but if they aren't a max level player they aren't gonna get paid absolute bunches of money. They are going to get some sort of starter level money. (Or less...possibly MUCH less or nothing). He wasn't a top guy or anything but Thankfully for the Wolves Bazz turned down a nice deal and a couple years later he was out of the league. IMO we need to look at Russell as a guy that could end up resigning here for a MUCH more palatable amount AND offensively he does actually fit. He can play both on and off the ball. He already took less shots this year so he is capable of talking a step back. I mean does anyone think Wiggins is gonna get a max deal? I do think it's possible he gets paid more than Russell if he continues to play well but if he got a max deal he would be overpaid again. Unless Russell blows up next season (unlikely partly because of his likely role) Russell isn't going to get anywhere near a max deal. He might get a little more than say 15 million in the 2023 offseason but part of that is the cap will go up.

Again I'm totally fine having Russell play out his current contract and see where we land after that. I see possible value in being able to pick what we do with that salary going forward. Maybe it's resigning Russell to a deal that might even be decent even if he became a terrific 6th man. Maybe it will be time to move on and the Wolves will have financial flexibility moving forward. I don't see much value coming back for Russell in a trade especially if we have to take back salary past next season.

I'd much rather see if there was a way we could improve/configure the roster moving Beasley who is a worthwhile player with an expiring contract. I don't have high hopes for what he would return but I also don't feel like keeping him on the roster is super critical although fun stat he played the 4th most minutes on the Wolves who won 46 games. It's possible next season he could play better. I think a team that has more of a need at Shooting guard should look at kinda buying low on Beasley. I think he has become more of a winning player. I want to see more of Nowell and hopefully in a possible Beasley trade get a player/s with more size.

Camden wrote:Glad to see this thread turned into another echo chamber of mistruths. The board is in great shape.

I don't think that's true, Cam. There are different opinions and perspectives being shared in this thread - yours included. I've tried to keep a balanced perspective as have others - all of us recognizing that DLO had a very good regular season and a terrific decisive performance in the play-in game against the Clippers. Yet, we all also acknowledge (yourself included I think) that DLO generally played poorly in the Memphis series. Of course, as I pointed out, hall-of-farmer Chris Paul has just had two terrible playoff performances. And in spite of DLO's overall good play during the regular season, his shooting was inconsistent and fell short of his shooting in recent prior years.

I honestly don't believe that the Wolves should set out to trade any current roster players. But I do think they should explore deals for anyone not named Towns or Edwards. As I indicated in an earlier post, I don't see a realistic deal for DLO that would make the Wolves better next season, although I'm intrigued by the possibility of swapping DLO for Simmons, which may or may not be realistic, because I think Simmons would be a better fit with his defense, rebounding and playmaking skills.

So it's been a good discussion in my view. But I'm ready to move on to a new topic for now. :)

Lip, as usual, you are right on the mark and have consistent and thorough reasoning for why you feel the way you do -- even when we disagree. You are not what concerns me within this thread, respectfully.

However, I am seeing repetitive "analysis" that is either lacking sufficient context or inconsistent with how they assess other players. Somehow the goalpost always moves in regards to D'Angelo Russell. I don't remember who here called Russell a polarizing player, but that couldn't be more accurate. The more we discuss his value, the more people dig in their heels of their already firm positions -- even when they've been off the mark.

We have to improve. Some of that improvement can be organic, but to jump a tier we need more than internal growth Edwards is probably the only untouchable player in my mind. I hope Gupta does whatever possible to come back stronger.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:We have to improve. Some of that improvement can be organic, but to jump a tier we need more than internal growth Edwards is probably the only untouchable player in my mind. I hope Gupta does whatever possible to come back stronger.

You raise an important point, Cool. I'll frame it as a question: How much can this team improve organically? I honestly don't have an answer to that question right now. I think there's a risk in relying completely on organic improvement. You mentioned the need for more than internal growth to jump up a tier. I'll add that we might need more than internal growth just to hold our position given the likelihood that the Pelicans, Clippers and Blazers will be significantly better next season. Right now, I'm unable to see realistic deals that would significantly improve the Wolves. So we'll have to depend on the MIT genius of Gupta I guess. :)

When it comes to considering possible trades, I'd consider both KAT and Edwards untouchable, but otherwise we're in sync on that question. Otherwise, in Gupta we trust.

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:We have to improve. Some of that improvement can be organic, but to jump a tier we need more than internal growth Edwards is probably the only untouchable player in my mind. I hope Gupta does whatever possible to come back stronger.

You raise an important point, Cool. I'll frame it as a question: How much can this team improve organically? I honestly don't have an answer to that question right now. I think there's a risk in relying completely on organic improvement. You mentioned the need for more than internal growth to jump up a tier. I'll add that we might need more than internal growth just to hold our position given the likelihood that the Pelicans, Clippers and Blazers will be significantly better next season. Right now, I'm unable to see realistic deals that would significantly improve the Wolves. So we'll have to depend on the MIT genius of Gupta I guess. :)

When it comes to considering possible trades, I'd consider both KAT and Edwards untouchable, but otherwise we're in sync on that question. Otherwise, in Gupta we trust.

Lip, our organic growth has to come from Ant and Jaden. They have the most room between their current ability and their ceiling. KAT and Dlo are pretty close to what they are going to be for the next few years. It would be nice to find a gem in the first round again, but we should use the entire array of options to try and improve.