Wiggins vaccination appeal denied

[thedoper]

You are not allowed to smoke inside in many public places because of the health risk to others. You are not allowed to drive at excessive speeds because of the risk to others. You need to use a hands free device while driving in many places in the world. These provisions in law are due to the cited irresponsibility of humans and the perceived danger of not limiting human behavior. The health and safety of your fellow humans has always been a consideration of the law. Likewise there have always been people who question the validity or necessity for these laws. This is no different.

[Coolbreeze44]

You are not allowed to smoke inside in many public places because of the health risk to others. You are not allowed to drive at excessive speeds because of the risk to others. You need to use a hands free device while driving in many places in the world. These provisions in law are due to the cited irresponsibility of humans and the perceived danger of not limiting human behavior. The health and safety of your fellow humans has always been a consideration of the law. Likewise there have always been people who question the validity or necessity for these laws. This is no different.

So explain to me the the fires being set last summer by BLM. They didn't get prosecuted. Weren't they a risk to the safety of fellow humans? Why was that okay, but someone not taking a vaccination for a virus with a 99% survival rate is a problem?

[thedoper]

You are not allowed to smoke inside in many public places because of the health risk to others. You are not allowed to drive at excessive speeds because of the risk to others. You need to use a hands free device while driving in many places in the world. These provisions in law are due to the cited irresponsibility of humans and the perceived danger of not limiting human behavior. The health and safety of your fellow humans has always been a consideration of the law. Likewise there have always been people who question the validity or necessity for these laws. This is no different.

So explain to me the the fires being set last summer by BLM. They didn't get prosecuted. Weren't they a risk to the safety of fellow humans? Why was that okay, but someone not taking a vaccination for a virus with a 99% survival rate is a problem?

Yeah I understand that the hypocrisy in the application of enforcement of laws seems to be a big problem for people in today's society. If your point is that government is a jumbled mess then I totally agree, I just dont personally think that the necessary conclusion from there is that public health measures are bad. I for one like that health inspectors are out there looking for rat turds in my soup as an example. But in terms of "enforcement" I would argue that even with mandates people are still very free to be unvaccinated if they chose so. There is no one being jailed or fined or forced to vaccinate. They are usually only limited to the number of people they can gather aound indoors as a higher risk carrier. If they by their own conclusions decide that they know better than the overwhelming majority of health professionals and scientist so be it. I would rather personally live in a society where we trust and value the expertise of health professionals and their intense training with only a moderate and appropriate amount of cynicism. This may really end up being harder if the proof becomes definitive that US money and Chinese mismanagement was the cause for all of this. None of this changes the effectiveness of vaccines.

[Wolvesfan21]

You are not allowed to smoke inside in many public places because of the health risk to others. You are not allowed to drive at excessive speeds because of the risk to others. You need to use a hands free device while driving in many places in the world. These provisions in law are due to the cited irresponsibility of humans and the perceived danger of not limiting human behavior. The health and safety of your fellow humans has always been a consideration of the law. Likewise there have always been people who question the validity or necessity for these laws. This is no different.

So do vaccines work or not work? If they work then those people "at risk" can get vaccinated, no problem, they are safe from us weirdos who never do. If they don't work then why get vaccinated?

I haven't had the flu shot in over a decade, never get the flu either. Which reminds me, how come we have a "flu season" like it can only show up once a year at a specific time and Big Pharma can predict with great accuracy how to prevent this from coming. How illogical is that? Just maybe the flu itself is another Big Pharma creation to get people to buy their vaccines.

What a conspiracy theory! I came up with that one myself, it only makes sense. Yes I am sure their is some "expert scientist" mumbo jumbo explaining how it has this magic time table to show up once per year and do so so that Big Pharma can predict it.

What a nice scam they got going, imo anyways.

[TheGrey08]

So do vaccines work or not work? If they work then those people "at risk" can get vaccinated, no problem, they are safe from us weirdos who never do. If they don't work then why get vaccinated?

I haven't had the flu shot in over a decade, never get the flu either. Which reminds me, how come we have a "flu season" like it can only show up once a year at a specific time and Big Pharma can predict with great accuracy how to prevent this from coming. How illogical is that? Just maybe the flu itself is another Big Pharma creation to get people to buy their vaccines.

What a conspiracy theory! I came up with that one myself, it only makes sense. Yes I am sure their is some "expert scientist" mumbo jumbo explaining how it has this magic time table to show up once per year and do so so that Big Pharma can predict it.

What a nice scam they got going, imo anyways.

Holy shit, are you serious? Please tell me you do understand that "flu season" is the part of the year that cases spike during the colder and less humid part of the year. I really hope that wasn't serious lol.

As far as the flu shot, I never get it either since I never get the flu and have avoided getting it for years at a time. I also just stay home when I'm sick and the flu has never been shown to have asymptomatic spreading like covid.

As far as vaccines "working or not", you do understand herd immunity right? Different diseases have different herd immunity thresholds. Measles for example requires 95%. IE: the vaccine isn't 100%, vaccinated people can still get it and thus we need herd immunity to eliminate it.

[mrhockey89]

Here's my take on COVID and the vaccine.

-It was man-made in a lab in Wuhan. The statistical improbability that it wasn't has to be astronomical.
-Dr Fauci absolutely was pushing for gain of function research. He's suggested in the past 5-10 years that he believed the benefits outweigh the risk. Because of this, I think he does have something to hide, so in that sense I believe he's involved in a cover-up.
-The virus is very real and very transmissible without protection. It is very dangerous to the elderly and not at all dangerous to kids, so the whole protect our kids narrative is BS. There's been about 500 kids that have died from COVID in the US up to age 18. If we're worried about protecting them from this, then we really need to step up our protections for kids on flu and pnemonia. Kids do not transmit at a high rate.
-I believe there should be no mandate. Those who want to get the vaccine are protected from hospitalization/death. IF they get sick again, they're likely to gain further immunity, and not be hospitalized.
-I believe it is a crock of sh!t that they're not allowing people to "test out" of the vaccine by proving natural immunity. If you have natural immunity you are 13x less likely than if you're vaccinated of getting the Delta variant (per Israeli study).

With that said, I completely changed my life for the year of COVID before the vaccine came out to protect those I came in contact with from getting it, because they were high risk. Once everyone that wanted the vaccine had the opportunity, I felt comfortable resuming life as normal. I myself got vaccinated in March (earliest I could) for the protection of those around me.

Resume life as normal. Encourage the vaccine to those who don't have immunity, but let's stop scaring the country. There is zero reason someone who is vaccinated or has had COVID should be worried for themselves at this point, nor for anyone who makes the conscious choice to not get it.

Lastly, nobody should be getting extra unemployment/COVID checks going forward. People should get jobs if they need money, unless they have a medical reason they can't.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

So do vaccines work or not work? If they work then those people "at risk" can get vaccinated, no problem, they are safe from us weirdos who never do. If they don't work then why get vaccinated?

I haven't had the flu shot in over a decade, never get the flu either. Which reminds me, how come we have a "flu season" like it can only show up once a year at a specific time and Big Pharma can predict with great accuracy how to prevent this from coming. How illogical is that? Just maybe the flu itself is another Big Pharma creation to get people to buy their vaccines.

What a conspiracy theory! I came up with that one myself, it only makes sense. Yes I am sure their is some "expert scientist" mumbo jumbo explaining how it has this magic time table to show up once per year and do so so that Big Pharma can predict it.

What a nice scam they got going, imo anyways.

Holy shit, are you serious? Please tell me you do understand that "flu season" is the part of the year that cases spike during the colder and less humid part of the year. I really hope that wasn't serious lol.

As far as the flu shot, I never get it either since I never get the flu and have avoided getting it for years at a time. I also just stay home when I'm sick and the flu has never been shown to have asymptomatic spreading like covid.

As far as vaccines "working or not", you do understand herd immunity right? Different diseases have different herd immunity thresholds. Measles for example requires 95%. IE: the vaccine isn't 100%, vaccinated people can still get it and thus we need herd immunity to eliminate it.

FWIW, people should probably get the flu shot every year too. Normally the flu virus is less malignant than COVID, and our bodies have developed some degree of antibodies after years of being exposed to variations of the flu virus, so most years, it really is no big deal if you get the flu and are a healthy, middle-aged adult. But because these viruses are constantly mutating, it's always possible a particularly deadly strain of the flu could emerge. That's what happened in 1918-19, and check out the death tolls from that (though obviously, we have better medical care now). The flu vaccines try to anticipate those variations, so they're not perfect, but they'll likely be better than nothing if and when a really bad mutation does happen. The swine flu (H1N1), I think, is actually the result of a mutation from the 1918-19 flu, and a reminder that viral mutations could possibly come back to bite us through some other interim animal host.

As you mention though, Grey, vaccinations inhibit viruses from becoming more deadly because they limit the number of people who get it and in whom the virus mutates (possibly into something more deadly). From what I understand, that is different from the effects that antibiotics have on bacteria, for example. Antibiotics can keep bacteria in check obviously, and some people need that desperately, but the more antibiotics are used, the more resistant bacteria get to them. These "superbacteria" have emerged in some hospitals and have really been tough as hell to kill off. I know I've read some articles that speculate that the potential damage from superbacteria to people, animals, crops, etc, could someday be much worse than the danger of viruses.

So we should probably get vaccinated, but use antibiotics and other antibacterial products sparingly.

[TheGrey08]

FWIW, people should probably get the flu shot every year too. Normally the flu virus is less malignant than COVID, and our bodies have developed some degree of antibodies after years of being exposed to variations of the flu virus, so most years, it really is no big deal if you get the flu and are a healthy, middle-aged adult. But because these viruses are constantly mutating, it's always possible a particularly deadly strain of the flu could emerge. That's what happened in 1918-19, and check out the death tolls from that (though obviously, we have better medical care now). The flu vaccines try to anticipate those variations, so they're not perfect, but they'll likely be better than nothing if and when a really bad mutation does happen. The swine flu (H1N1), I think, is actually the result of a mutation from the 1918-19 flu, and a reminder that viral mutations could possibly come back to bite us through some other interim animal host.

As you mention though, Grey, vaccinations inhibit viruses from becoming more deadly because they limit the number of people who get it and in whom the virus mutates (possibly into something more deadly). From what I understand, that is different from the effects that antibiotics have on bacteria, for example. Antibiotics can keep bacteria in check obviously, and some people need that desperately, but the more antibiotics are used, the more resistant bacteria get to them. These "superbacteria" have emerged in some hospitals and have really been tough as hell to kill off. I know I've read some articles that speculate that the potential damage from superbacteria to people, animals, crops, etc, could someday be much worse than the danger of viruses.

So we should probably get vaccinated, but use antibiotics and other antibacterial products sparingly.

Solid and fair points Drew. The pandemic has definitely made me think about getting the flu shot. I'm still only 36, and pretty much don't leave my house 4-5 days a week lol, but it's not something to just brush off like I used to.

Antibiotics have concerned me for a while now especially with how flippant some doctors are with prescribing them, like just guessing it would help what was bothering their patient. IE: over use of then. Super bugs are definitely a big worry.

[FNG]

I understand the "freedom" argument the anti-mandate contingent is putting forth here...understand it, but don't accept it. Every day I'm impacted by government mandates that restrict my freedoms and frankly irritate me a little, but I accept them because I recognize they are for the common good, and that our society functions best when we all try to act in a fashion that serves the common good. Cam wrote a quite intelligent post a few posts above here, but his logic breaks down when you substitute other mandates for his anti-vax mandate. Let me give you just a few examples of mandates that bothered me just this past weekend:

1) I left for the airport a little late Friday afternoon. I consider myself a very good driver, and I would love to have driven 90 MPH and ignored red lights (when there was no car within sight), in order to give myself more time to get through security at the airport. I don't believe I would have hurt anyone. If there were no laws regulating driving, I can guarantee you that I would not be the only one speeding and ignoring stop lights. But our government has determined driving laws make us safer.

2) At the airport, I had to take off my shoes and belt, take my laptop and other electronics out of my briefcase, empty my water bottle (which I apparently could use to build a bomb) and wait in a line for 30 minutes rather than just walk to the gate like I could 25 years ago. It all pissed me off because I honestly had no intention of highjacking that plane, but I understand that our government believes that if it keeps Muslim radicals from smashing planes into buildings, maybe it's worth FNG getting irritated going through security.

3) I love to smoke a cigar now and then to relax, and I would have loved to have lit one up after sliding into seat 31D. But most scientists (not all, but most...just like most, but not all, immunologists believe vaxxing and masking keeps us and others safe) have determined that I might be endangering the other passengers' health. Yeah, it annoyed me again, but I accepted it...and took a nap instead.

4) Walking through Greenwich Village Sunday afternoon, I came across an angry woman who had just been fined a substantial amount by a cop for not cleaning up after her dog. I'm sure she wanted to keep walking after her cute little terrier pooped on the sidewalk, but our government has determined that our sidewalks would be a mess without this annoying mandate. This Karen thought her freedom was impaired by having to follow a mandate that she didn't believe in. As I looked at her, I saw the minority here who rail against businesses and governments requiring masking/vaxxing.

I'm sure I could come up with several more mandates that bothered me this weekend, including having to wear a mask the entire time I was on that plane. But most of us put vax/mask mandates into the same category as driving laws, airport security laws, second hand smoke regulations, and we accept them because we want our fellow citizens to be safer. I would guess that the minority here who do not want to accept vax and mask mandates accept these other mandates too, even if they irritate them.

So let's be honest. Isn't this uproar about vaxxing and masks really only about politics...not logic?

[TheGrey08]

Well said FNG. I didn't touch on the mask side of things, but it's absolutely political when it shouldn't be. Just look at how common they are in East Asia. They feel sick, they wear a mask in public, it's no big deal. I moved from Minneapolis to Rice Lake WI back in May.

Side note: maaaan I still cant believe I live in WI after 36 years in MN lol. (We found a really nice house and 10 wooded acres close to half way between our families.. happy wife happy life, etc). Thankfully I'm still in the Twin cities TV market.

Anyway, we immediately noticed how people acted in WI to masks and even got a couple comments from locals to ditch the masks early in the summer. Indicating that mask wearers are out of towners. It's just crazy to me how people can be so negative or butthurt about wearing a stupid mask. They suck to wear when it's hot, especially being someone who wears glasses, but I suck it up and do it when I have to. As you pointed out, if slight inconvenience helps the greater public, so be it.