Minnesota Sports Forum

Also is it shabazz fault or is it the players he is surrounded by. (I don't know the answer). Because when shabazz was out there with lavine the wolves were -10 pt difference per 100 pos. Also -13 with tyus with him. But when ricky plays with him he is a positive about 2. So a 12 and 15 put difference when shabazz plays with a legit pg.

Also he is positive in lineups that consist of him, rubio and towns. Also him, rubio and Wiggins.

If you want to go to last year with lavine they were a -20 per 100 pos. But he was positive when mo Williams was in the floor with him. Also his rookie year he was a +10 per 100 pos. When on the floor with ricky

So is it shabazz fault or is it the lack of legit nba backup point gaurd. I don't know the answer

kekgeek1 wrote:Also is it shabazz fault or is it the players he is surrounded by. (I don't know the answer). Because when shabazz was out there with lavine the wolves were -10 pt difference per 100 pos. Also -13 with tyus with him. But when ricky plays with him he is a positive about 2. So a 12 and 15 put difference when shabazz plays with a legit pg.

Also he is positive in lineups that consist of him, rubio and towns. Also him, rubio and Wiggins.

If you want to go to last year with lavine they were a -20 per 100 pos. But he was positive when mo Williams was in the floor with him. Also his rookie year he was a +10 per 100 pos. When on the floor with ricky

So is it shabazz fault or is it the lack of legit nba backup point gaurd. I don't know the answer

You can look this also other way:

Towns with Shabazz on the floor: -8.1
Towns without Shabazz on the floor: -0.2

Wiggins with Shabazz on the floor: -2.8
Wiggins without Shabazz on the floor: -0.5

Lavine with Shabazz on the floor: -9.9
Lavine without Shabazz on the floor: -1.6

Rubio with Shabazz on the floor: +0.9
Rubio without Shabazz on the floor: +1.1

Dieng with Shabazz on the floor: -0.9
Dieng without Shabazz on the floor: +2.4

Prince with Shabazz on the floor: -10.4
Prince without Shabazz on the floor: +1.7

Bjelica with Shabazz on the floor: -7.2
Bjelica without Shabazz on the floor: -0.9

Jones with Shabazz on the floor: -12.8
Jones without Shabazz on the floor: +6.8

Payne with Shabazz on the floor: -14.0
Payne without Shabazz on the floor: -4.7

So it looks like Shabazz is not exactly making players around him better. He is not hurting some players as much as others but even Rubio, Wiggins and Dieng have had better net rating when they have not played with Shabazz.

Those are really compelling numbers, mikkeman. I really want to like Bazz because I love his relentless effort and ability to score in bunches, but those on/off numbers paint a bad picture. I would like to keep him at a reasonable price, but our new decision makers need to very careful that they don't overpay.

kekgeek1 wrote:Also is it shabazz fault or is it the players he is surrounded by. (I don't know the answer). Because when shabazz was out there with lavine the wolves were -10 pt difference per 100 pos. Also -13 with tyus with him. But when ricky plays with him he is a positive about 2. So a 12 and 15 put difference when shabazz plays with a legit pg.

Also he is positive in lineups that consist of him, rubio and towns. Also him, rubio and Wiggins.

If you want to go to last year with lavine they were a -20 per 100 pos. But he was positive when mo Williams was in the floor with him. Also his rookie year he was a +10 per 100 pos. When on the floor with ricky

So is it shabazz fault or is it the lack of legit nba backup point gaurd. I don't know the answer

I always find this argument curious because couldn't you make the same argument with Tyus and the others? If it's always someone else's fault that a person's +/- is terrible, than whose fault is it with the other guys?

I think Mikkeman documents pretty definitively the corrosive effect of Shabazz in almost ANY lineup of players. Now obviously if he's paired with four other strong guys, they will be fine, but that can be said of almost any player. At some point it would be nice if Shabazz's presence actually boosted a lineup's performance.

I definitely appreciate Shabazz's strengths and he does do one thing really well (scoring), which is important for a bench player. Perhaps Mitchell's work with him this past season to make him more well-rounded pays dividends in the upcoming seasons.

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:Also is it shabazz fault or is it the players he is surrounded by. (I don't know the answer). Because when shabazz was out there with lavine the wolves were -10 pt difference per 100 pos. Also -13 with tyus with him. But when ricky plays with him he is a positive about 2. So a 12 and 15 put difference when shabazz plays with a legit pg.

Also he is positive in lineups that consist of him, rubio and towns. Also him, rubio and Wiggins.

If you want to go to last year with lavine they were a -20 per 100 pos. But he was positive when mo Williams was in the floor with him. Also his rookie year he was a +10 per 100 pos. When on the floor with ricky

So is it shabazz fault or is it the lack of legit nba backup point gaurd. I don't know the answer

I always find this argument curious because couldn't you make the same argument with Tyus and the others? If it's always someone else's fault that a person's +/- is terrible, than whose fault is it with the other guys?

I think Mikkeman documents pretty definitively the corrosive effect of Shabazz in almost ANY lineup of players. Now obviously if he's paired with four other strong guys, they will be fine, but that can be said of almost any player. At some point it would be nice if Shabazz's presence actually boosted a lineup's performance.

I definitely appreciate Shabazz's strengths and he does do one thing really well (scoring), which is important for a bench player. Perhaps Mitchell's work with him this past season to make him more well-rounded pays dividends in the upcoming seasons.

I feel like with some guys we take a bit too much of the totality of the season without considering the improvement a player made even if it wasn't magical eye opening progress like Zach or Dieng. Does Bazz get credit for being a significant contributor for a team that went 15-17 the last 32 games? His defense looked at the very least less problematic the last few games. Was their some sort of progress or was the philosophy in switching at a much higher rate (something Flip said multiple times with athletes) covering up some of his issues? To me I find myself realizing he more often than not isn't part of the solution as a player but I also wonder if he isn't exactly the problem. Those are too different parts of the spectrum.

I'm not suggesting Bazz is going to drastically improve or change his game however he is still 23 has played for 3 different coaches in 3 years and hadn't even played 2 seasons worth of games yet (nice to see him make it through 1 season healthy) so it's possible he still has some solid improvement he could make.

The conversation about moving him is mostly about:

Not losing him for nothing

Getting something valuable in return

I think teams see him as a guy they want but what are they really willing to give up? Bazz has been a bench guy and at this point it becomes more and more clear his path to being a starter on this team is nearly nonexistent. I'm sure that's a big part of the reason teams have called maybe they can get him for cheap since he isn't being utilized here.

I like the guy but I realize he may not fit but if we hire the right coach that comes I here and says something like "do you guys want to be the Spirs or the Warriors? Look at those rosters. Not everyone that has the talent to do so starts and or plays big minutes. Do you want to be something special? We can make that happen let's do this" Steve Kerr did it with a Iggy although he is/was in a different part of his career. I'd like to see what Bazz looks like playing for a team with some players that can play off his strengths and hide him. I'd like to see if his defense can be improved to at least some level of not being a liability. I just love how Bazz brings it. He has this quite raging confident I don't care who you are I am gonna play attitude. I think this team or a good team can utilize that type of player. Bjelica Bazz and Tyus seem like guys that could work well together on the floor.

I can make a case or Bazz because he can do sole good things on the floor is young and still cheap. I can absolutely see the case for moving him for value also. I guess the reality is for me is I hope more that he turns into a relatively good basketball player as a Timberwolf than dream about what he can bring back in a trade. Is that so bad? :)

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:
I always find this argument curious because couldn't you make the same argument with Tyus and the others? If it's always someone else's fault that a person's +/- is terrible, than whose fault is it with the other guys?

I think Mikkeman documents pretty definitively the corrosive effect of Shabazz in almost ANY lineup of players. Now obviously if he's paired with four other strong guys, they will be fine, but that can be said of almost any player. At some point it would be nice if Shabazz's presence actually boosted a lineup's performance.

I definitely appreciate Shabazz's strengths and he does do one thing really well (scoring), which is important for a bench player. Perhaps Mitchell's work with him this past season to make him more well-rounded pays dividends in the upcoming seasons.

I feel like with some guys we take a bit too much of the totality of the season without considering the improvement a player made even if it wasn't magical eye opening progress like Zach or Dieng. Does Bazz get credit for being a significant contributor for a team that went 15-17 the last 32 games? His defense looked at the very least less problematic the last few games. Was their some sort of progress or was the philosophy in switching at a much higher rate (something Flip said multiple times with athletes) covering up some of his issues? To me I find myself realizing he more often than not isn't part of the solution as a player but I also wonder if he isn't exactly the problem. Those are too different parts of the spectrum.

I'm not suggesting Bazz is going to drastically improve or change his game however he is still 23 has played for 3 different coaches in 3 years and hadn't even played 2 seasons worth of games yet (nice to see him make it through 1 season healthy) so it's possible he still has some solid improvement he could make.

The conversation about moving him is mostly about:

Not losing him for nothing

Getting something valuable in return

I think teams see him as a guy they want but what are they really willing to give up? Bazz has been a bench guy and at this point it becomes more and more clear his path to being a starter on this team is nearly nonexistent. I'm sure that's a big part of the reason teams have called maybe they can get him for cheap since he isn't being utilized here.

I like the guy but I realize he may not fit but if we hire the right coach that comes I here and says something like "do you guys want to be the Spirs or the Warriors? Look at those rosters. Not everyone that has the talent to do so starts and or plays big minutes. Do you want to be something special? We can make that happen let's do this" Steve Kerr did it with a Iggy although he is/was in a different part of his career. I'd like to see what Bazz looks like playing for a team with some players that can play off his strengths and hide him. I'd like to see if his defense can be improved to at least some level of not being a liability. I just love how Bazz brings it. He has this quite raging confident I don't care who you are I am gonna play attitude. I think this team or a good team can utilize that type of player. Bjelica Bazz and Tyus seem like guys that could work well together on the floor.

I can make a case or Bazz because he can do sole good things on the floor is young and still cheap. I can absolutely see the case for moving him for value also. I guess the reality is for me is I hope more that he turns into a relatively good basketball player as a Timberwolf than dream about what he can bring back in a trade. Is that so bad? :)

I checked Shabazz numbers post all star break and there were definitely some improvement. When he was paired with either Rubio or Wiggins, team net rating was +5.7 and +5.6 that was actually better than individual net rating for either Rubio or Wiggins. another guy that showed huge improvement post all star break was Tyus.

To be fair, if you check similar stats from Lavine, he looks even worse than Shabazz. I guess that it is mainly because he played quite many minutes as PG and it was pretty awful experiment. But surprisingly his numbers were not that much better post all star break. (numbers below are from entire season)

Towns with Lavine on the floor: -6.3 Towns without Lavine on the floor: +2.6
Wiggins with Lavine on the floor: -3.2 and without Lavine on the floor: +1.4
Rubio with Lavine on the floor: -0.3 and without Lavine on the floor: +2.3
Dieng with Lavine on the floor: -0.6 and without Lavine on the floor: +4.0
Shabazz with Lavine on the floor: -9.9 and without Lavine on the floor: -0.8
Prince with Lavine on the floor: -12.5 and without Lavine on the floor: +2.5
Bjelica with Lavine on the floor: -7.9 and without Lavine on the floor: -1.4
Jones with Lavine on the floor: -15.0 and without Lavine on the floor: -5.1
Payne with Lavine on the floor: -10.7 and without Lavine on the floor: -10.9

BTW. if you make similar analysis about Dieng, he has been really terrific: (maybe even better than Ricky)

Towns with Dieng on the floor: +3.7 Towns without Dieng on the floor: -6.5
Wiggins with Dieng on the floor: +1.5 and without Dieng on the floor: -3.8
Rubio with Dieng on the floor: +3.1 and without Dieng on the floor: -1.2
Lavine with Dieng on the floor: -0.6 and without Dieng on the floor: -15.6
Shabazz with Dieng on the floor: -1.2 and without Dieng on the floor: -14.4
Prince with Dieng on the floor: -0.2 and without Dieng on the floor: -3.1
Bjelica with Dieng on the floor: -4.6 and without Dieng on the floor: -5.8
Jones with Dieng on the floor: -3.9 and without Dieng on the floor: -14.3
Payne with Dieng on the floor: +1.8 and without Dieng on the floor: -22.2

Before seeing these numbers I used to think that Wolves would need most upgrade for power forward position, but now I'm leaning towards that they could use temporal upgrade for wing position maybe even more.

On Dieng I like how Britt refers to him as a "grease and glue" guy. He does have that sort of quality to his game. In his chat with Wolfson Sam talked about Dieng's season and said he does all the dirty work. He said as the season went on we told him to do less stuff so he could do more. He said he told Dieng that Deandre Jordan can't hit a FT or score outside of 3 feet from the basket and he had people taking over his house to sign him to big money. He said he told Dieng to be willing to run the floor rebound play D etc and he can get paid. He said he LOVES Dieng and thinks he still has some nice upside. He said Dieng reminds him of himself in some ways a worker and a guy that's not the greatest athlete but willing to do whatever it takes.

A couple more thoughts on Bazz. Look at his shooting percentages of where he took them and how he shot them. He took a higher percentage of his shots near the rim and from 3 this season. The longer 2's he took he hit on a poor but higher percentage. Basically what Inam saying is Bazz took more efficient shots this year than he ever has. This is also the 2nd year in a row he has shot over 40% on 3's in the corners so that seems like a somewhat legit aspect of his game. Of course that means he is brutally bad from 3 not in the corners but if some of these random tweeter PFs are extending their range to the corners I would think there is still a chance Bazz can find his shot above the break. Sam coached the guy hard I think that's gonna help him with Thibs and I think he could benefit from Thibs maybe as much as anyone because his weekends is on defense.

I think having Thibs here makes me value certain players with great physical tools a bit more. I still want production but I think its easier to project improved production for certain guys that have the right size, athleticism and desire in Thib's system. . I think Dragan Bender can be another Eurostud (I think his ceiling is Pau Gasol) under Thibs with his great natural athleticism and good basketball IQ. Jaylen Brown, physically is very similar to Butler, and I think Thib's could mold him into that type of player. Finally, I think Timothe Luwawe could develop into a 3 and D stud under Thibs.

Dragan Bender plays nothing like Pau Gasol... Maybe you meant he could be as recognized as Pau or a perennial All-Star or something like that, but the way I took that was way off.

Camden wrote:Dragan Bender plays nothing like Pau Gasol... Maybe you meant he could be as recognized as Pau or a perennial All-Star or something like that, but the way I took that was way off.

There are several articles where his upside has been likened to Gasol. How much have you watched him play?

"Closest thing to Pau (Gasol) I've seen," one Eastern Conference general manager told SheridanHoops.

And I am comparing Bender to what Gasol was like as a prospect when Gasol was a skinny kid who played more on the perimeter and wasn't really that good in the paint yet. Bender is one of the youngest guys in the draft, so you need to do a little projecting on him.