Minnesota Sports Forum

thedoper wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:Gobert affected winning more than Towns. I have no problem rewarding Gobert for a better season. Towns will make all NBA teams in the future. If he's really as much about winning as he lets on he should have no problem with Gobert finishing ahead of him.

There's no reliable way to compare the impact of these two players on winning. Utah was a much better team -- better talent all around, better chemistry and better coaching. There isn't a team in the League that would take Gobert over KAT if given a choice between the two for the same price.

Utah's record without Gobert has always been abysmal. Kat powers us to the lottery, Gobert has put them firmly in the playoffs for a few years now with a variety of sidekicks. KAT has great offensive stats but if he was all NBA we should be in the playoffs by his talent. I can try and justify other angles but it would just be my homerism talking. Gobert makes coaches and team chemistry look great because he is a great player. Either way KAT v Gobert can have arguments from an individual player perspective. I'm fine with wins being the differentiator between the two. I think it should be. Until KAT becomes a winner I don't want him getting individual accolades. Earn accolades with winning, not eFG%

If Gobert wins DPOY that's a pretty good case from him being all-nba by itself assuming that guy isn't barely effective offensively like say an Andre Roberson. People are really down playing Gobert IMO. The guy had a terrific season. People are pretty much assuming the guy is like deandre Jordon or something. DJ never scored 13ppg in a season. To me it's a pretty simple reality Gobert deserved to be all NBA. Towns also deserved to be all NBA. Embiid and Jokic deserved to be all-nba. The Jazz won more games that's an easy tie breaker. If AD doesn't demand a trade and plays 72 games he might make it and neither Gobert is Towns make it. I get it we are homers but it's like Towns has some sort of amazing season while Gobert was just pretty good or something. It's a coin flip for me I'm not crying about Towns not getting in. Like other have said hopefully this is some added motivation. Dane Moore has stats on Twitter that said the Wolves were actually better defensively when Towns was off the court. He wasn't really saying he thought Towns was actually a liability on that end but it's soenthing is there. Also don't forget that there was a stretch of games at the beginning to the season Towns didn't play well at all. It's understandable but it still happened.

As far as who gets in and who doesn't...Hell Klay Thompson seemed pretty ticked about not being all-nba and I can't blame him. Who do you take out though? Personally I would take Kyrie out but it's not like he sucks or something and is a very good player. It's not going to be easy to be all NBA and there will continue to be more competition every year since unless a guy has a breakdown with injuries the guys vying for this award are still fairly young with Gobert the old guy turning 27 this offseason.

All-NBA centers this season should have been Jokic, Towns, and Gobert.

Embiid is uber talented, but his impact on the game is vastly overrated and his numbers just don't support him being this elite big man in the game.

Camden wrote:All-NBA centers this season should have been Jokic, Towns, and Gobert.

Embiid is uber talented, but his impact on the game is vastly overrated and his numbers just don't support him being this elite big man in the game.

This is just so out of touch with reality. He put up better defensive win shares than Rudy Gobert playing in almost 20 less games this year and he averaged almost 28/14/4. You have to go to the 3rd page on nbadotcom when filtering for guys who played more than 26 minutes with 155 players a page just to find KAT on the defensive charts and KAT put up 25/13/4 on a worse team where he was the centerpiece for most of the year once Jimmy was gone. Embiid is the best 2 way big man in the NBA and number 2 isn't close. Jokic is great offensively, but average defensively, same with Towns and Gobert is great defensively and very limited offensively. Embiid then backed it up in the playoffs where he is the number 1 ranked defensive player in the playoffs while also averaging 20/11/3 while playing hurt. It's just not close.

khans2k5 wrote:

Camden wrote:All-NBA centers this season should have been Jokic, Towns, and Gobert.

Embiid is uber talented, but his impact on the game is vastly overrated and his numbers just don't support him being this elite big man in the game.

This is just so out of touch with reality. He put up better defensive win shares than Rudy Gobert playing in almost 20 less games this year and he averaged almost 28/14/4. You have to go to the 3rd page on nbadotcom when filtering for guys who played more than 26 minutes with 155 players a page just to find KAT on the defensive charts and KAT put up 25/13/4 on a worse team where he was the centerpiece for most of the year once Jimmy was gone. Embiid is the best 2 way big man in the NBA and number 2 isn't close. Jokic is great offensively, but average defensively, same with Towns and Gobert is great defensively and very limited offensively. Embiid then backed it up in the playoffs where he is the number 1 ranked defensive player in the playoffs while also averaging 20/11/3 while playing hurt. It's just not close.

An interesting stat I stumbled upon when contemplating these posts.

FTA per game

#1 Harden 11.1
#2 Embiid 10.4
#14 Gobert 6.4
#19 Towns 5.8
#39 Jokic 4.4

I was a bit surprised Embiid was getting superstar level FTAs (actually tied with Harden per 36 mins) and I was surprised Gobert got to the line at the rate he did.

monsterpile wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Camden wrote:All-NBA centers this season should have been Jokic, Towns, and Gobert.

Embiid is uber talented, but his impact on the game is vastly overrated and his numbers just don't support him being this elite big man in the game.

This is just so out of touch with reality. He put up better defensive win shares than Rudy Gobert playing in almost 20 less games this year and he averaged almost 28/14/4. You have to go to the 3rd page on nbadotcom when filtering for guys who played more than 26 minutes with 155 players a page just to find KAT on the defensive charts and KAT put up 25/13/4 on a worse team where he was the centerpiece for most of the year once Jimmy was gone. Embiid is the best 2 way big man in the NBA and number 2 isn't close. Jokic is great offensively, but average defensively, same with Towns and Gobert is great defensively and very limited offensively. Embiid then backed it up in the playoffs where he is the number 1 ranked defensive player in the playoffs while also averaging 20/11/3 while playing hurt. It's just not close.

An interesting stat I stumbled upon when contemplating these posts.

FTA per game

#1 Harden 11.1
#2 Embiid 10.4
#14 Gobert 6.4
#19 Towns 5.8
#39 Jokic 4.4

I was a bit surprised Embiid was getting superstar level FTAs (actually tied with Harden per 36 mins) and I was surprised Gobert got to the line at the rate he did.

7-10 free points a game is huge. Embiid accomplishes things on the court by forcing entire defences to collapse on him. I really like his game and what he could become but just worry about his health. He too had a better season than Towns in my opinion. Either way this is one of the areas where I don't have a problem at all with the national media coverage of the Wolves or feel like there is a small market bias at play. You get attention for winning, that's what is going to cause people to take notice and reward KAT with the same adoration that many here have for him.

How many games has KAT missed?

I'll take KAT over Embiid . When these guys are making 25-30 mil a year I'll take the guy who is out there each and every nite earning that money.

I think KAT has a better set than Embiid, but Embiid is a more dominant floor presence, at least on the defensive end, and a bad matchup for Towns. Towns does have one of the most underrated abilities though, availability (unfortunately Wiggins has shared that same ability! I hope he proves me wrong this year by listening to his front office/coaches).

Towns is rich regardless of the super-max, and given the only 4 players locked onto our roster in 3 years (I believe) are Towns, Wiggins, Covington, and Okogie (and our 1st this year)

I think I saw some people calling for the Wolves to trade Covington for a young player or draft pick. I think that's crazy. You have a legit DPOY candidate with great work ethic, great attitude, fits the new NBA style on a long-term contract at like $11 mil/season? Peanuts! Trading Covington for anything but an opportunity to get a legitimate star would be a losers mentality.

This team gets Teague off the books ($19 mil) after this year, and the notorious Dieng contract ($18? mil) in 2 years, and an opportunity with Rosas to design this team almost any way he wants If Wiggins doesn't fit the system this year and start truly turning the corner (increasing efficiency/defense) then regardless of whether Ryan likes him, Rosas will make the necessary move. If Wiggins does start changing his style, then he'll stick around and most likely not be the total albatross of a contract that he is now. I remember either Rosas or Saunders saying a few weeks ago that their goal for him in the next year is to save energy by playing off the ball more and saving more energy for defense. (we've seen that play out before, and it didn't work since Wiggins seemed to get disinterested, but we'll give him another chance) I know Rosas also already spoke about how he's going to be teaching all these guys about the analytics of what their best/worst shots are, and making them focus on efficiency. Rosas didn't draft Wiggins, and he's got a long enough leash right now given how much we've already seen of Wiggins that he will not let Wiggins cost this team a future. Wiggins showed some great flashes last year at the end of the year, but he still wasn't playing the style of ball the Wolves need going forward, so I'm cautiously pessimistic. (I'd love to be wrong though, because his talent says he could be an elite player)

Towns will no doubt leave at the end of his contract if this team isn't trending to being a contender by then, and I also think at that point he should if we aren't. At that point it would be time to hit the reset button. Hopefully this team is good enough by then to be beyond the Warriors years and find a hidden gem or 3, with LeBron and KD both, Kawhi being at end/declined, and KAT joining guys like the Greek Freak as the top players in the NBA.

Sorry, didn't mean to go so off topic/hijack the thread, but I had stuff to say. Thanks for the therapy session!

Great post, Hockey! I'm one of those crazies who has talked about trading Covington for a young player or draft pick. But I'll clarify that it would have to be a young player or pick who I thought had a good chance of becoming an all-star caliber player. That's because I think this team's biggest need is another one or two all-star caliber players around KAT. That's the model for championship contention in the NBA with very few exceptions.

As I see it, we have two players on the roster with the talent to become all-star caliber players - Wiggins and Okogie. Given how long Wiggins has been in the League and what we've seen from him, including his downward trajectory, I'd say the odds of him becoming that level player are very slim. Okogie has a better chance of becoming an all-star caliber player given his natural gifts and high-end motor, but he has a long way to go. That means this organization has focus on acquiring player who are or can become the all-star caliber additions to the team's core with KAT. We're just not going to get that sort of player as a finished product in free agency or via trade. It's going to have to come in the form of a draftee or other young player who hasn't quite tapped into his talent yet. A team that already has the elite players it needs might be willing to part with a young player on their roster with high upside in exchange for Covington as a key high-leave role player.

Having said all that, my preference would be to keep Covington for all the reasons you gave. If we had the 1st or 2nd pick in this year's draft taking either Zion or Ja Morant, then I wouldn't even think of trading Covington. Alas, we dropped to #11 and based on what I've seen, we can't count on that pick bringing us the additional core all-star caliber player we need. That's why we need to consider using a veteran like Covington as a way to move up in the draft or add additional 1st round picks to increase the odds of landing a future all star.

Hi Lip! You could sell me on trading Covington if our front office is convinced they're getting a guy with not just all-star upside (Wiggins has that) but that he has a good shot of reaching it..AND that he fits today's NBA. You can sell me on that. I just think that Covington should be the last guy we are including not named Towns at this point. Picks, Okogie, etc should all go before Covington (and I'm a big Okogie fan).

I am on board with getting extra lottery picks, or moving up, I'd just do everything I can to avoid having Covington be part of that move. This team needs a veteran presence who fits the style game they're trying to move to. If we're relying on Saric to teach these young guys 3 and D, as much as I like Saric, it's not going to inspire anyone :)

Go Wolfs! Who's excited for the draft?!? Not even a month away! Everyone been watching their Gonzaga Final Four tape?! Just kidding.

I don't think we should trade away Covington, Okogie or picks to move up unless its for Zion. This is a draft that I think could end up like the 2011 draft. One consensus top guy, Irving like Zion and then I don't think its obvious at all who will be the cornerstone type guys like in 2011 when the next best players after Irving went much later i.e. 9 (Kemba), 11 (Klay), 15 (Kawhi), 16 (Vucevic) 19 (Tobias Harris) and 30 (Butler). Rosas should show his worth by finding and developing our pick at 11 into a star or at least a key contributor. I believe there is a good chance one or more will be there.