Minnesota Sports Forum

WolvesFan21 wrote:

PorkChop wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

PorkChop wrote:If a playoff team is ready to cast off their second best player shouldn't that throw up some red flags? If Simmons wasn't getting it done for them what makes us think he'll provide more to a lesser talented team in a more difficult conference?

Is DLO and Bease the answer? It's more about fit then anything. Simmons has some mental issues, has had years of bad press ()for not shooting 3's) and needs a fresh start. DLO and Bease in this hypothetical trade are not great defenders but Philly has several who are including Embiid. They can stand to take a little hit from the perimeter to improve their offense.

While the Wolves with KAT isn't a great defender. I see Simmons as a huge upgrade making our defense much better.

We need defense, they need offense. It's a win-win even if neither is "the answer" to winning a championship. Though potentially they could be.

If we give up those two guys we become a team that might be good defensively (might) but guaranteed to be a team that can't shoot from the perimeter. So what have we gained? Ant is a shot creator but by no means a threat from the perimeter.

Teams are scoring 110 to 115 a game. Even the best defensive teams dont stop that from happening consistently. You have to outscore the other team nowadays . Are you comfortable that this team can do that with this trade?

It's easier to find 3 and D guys then guys like Simmons though. At that point you look away from other non shooters like Okogie and Vandy. If any team can absorb Simmons on offense it should be one with the best big shooter in the NBA. KAT can focus more on 3's and Simmons down low.

3 & D players are very hard to find, especially for this franchise. I've documented this before, but we've basically had one in the last 10 years or so - Robert Covington. Literally, one guy that can hit 3s with volume and play plus-level defense. Jaden McDaniels might be the second if this franchise doesn't ruin his shot.

I'm kind of with Pork here and said before than Beasley-DLO would basically empty the coffers of reliable perimeter shooters.

If we were the Spurs or Miami, I might think that we're capable of filling the void with other shooters, but we have had such a difficult time drafting, developing, and trading for shooters over the years. Nowell is the latest example of a guy that on any other franchise would probably be a lights-out shooter by now given his background. But he comes to Minnesota and suddenly he's making barely one out of three shots and the other two are injuring innocent bystanders they are so far off!

Jester1534 wrote:I really don't understand this board sometimes.

If I were to tell you before the playoffs that eventually wolves would turn Andrew Wiggins (probably worst contract in basketball) the #7 pick in this year draft and Roco deal

Into Ben Simmons, Jaden Mcdaniels, Vanderbilt and Juancho you all do it in a heartbeat.

If you look at it that way, I would just clarify that the the Wolves would effectively be giving up Wiggins, Covington, the #17 pick in the 2020 draft, the #7 and #36 picks in the 2021 draft and at least one more but probably two more 1st round picks. I doubt we'd have McDaniels without that #17 pick.

But in any event, I don't think that's the right way to look at it. Any Simmons deal has to be evaluated based on current circumstances. We now have KAT's best friend, DLO, on the team. It's more problematic to take something away from someone than it is to not give it to him in the first place. We have players accustomed to playing together and who appeared to be coming together and playing well last last season. Simmons is coming off a horrendous playoff performance that plants further seeds of doubt on the ability to rely on him in critical crunch times, especially in the playoffs. Assuming Beasley and DLO are in the package for Simmons, the Wolves would have only one bona fide 3-point shooter on the team and, as our only elite rebounder, our offensive rebounding would suffer with more reliance on KAT's 3-point shooting.

I think WolvesFan makes a good argument about it being easier to find 3 and D guys. I agree. I also think Doper makes a good argument about viewing Simmons as a PF rather than a PG. So I'm not dead set against dealing for Simmons. But still maintain that there are good reasons to be hesitant. In the end, it boils down primarily to who and how much we'd have to give up to get him as well as how both KAT and Simmons would feel about the deal.

lipoli390 wrote:

Jester1534 wrote:I really don't understand this board sometimes.

If I were to tell you before the playoffs that eventually wolves would turn Andrew Wiggins (probably worst contract in basketball) the #7 pick in this year draft and Roco deal

Into Ben Simmons, Jaden Mcdaniels, Vanderbilt and Juancho you all do it in a heartbeat.

If you look at it that way, I would just clarify that the the Wolves would effectively be giving up Wiggins, Covington, the #17 pick in the 2020 draft, the #7 and #36 picks in the 2021 draft and at least one more but probably two more 1st round picks. I doubt we'd have McDaniels without that #17 pick.

But in any event, I don't think that's the right way to look at it. Any Simmons deal has to be evaluated based on current circumstances. We now have KAT's best friend, DLO, on the team. It's more problematic to take something away from someone than it is to not give it to him in the first place. We have players accustomed to playing together and who appeared to be coming together and playing well last last season. Simmons is coming off a horrendous playoff performance that plants further seeds of doubt on the ability to rely on him in critical crunch times, especially in the playoffs. Assuming Beasley and DLO are in the package for Simmons, the Wolves would have only one bona fide 3-point shooter on the team and, as our only elite rebounder, our offensive rebounding would suffer with more reliance on KAT's 3-point shooting.

I think WolvesFan makes a good argument about it being easier to find 3 and D guys. I agree. I also think Doper makes a good argument about viewing Simmons as a PF rather than a PG. So I'm not dead set against dealing for Simmons. But still maintain that there are good reasons to be hesitant. In the end, it boils down primarily to who and how much we'd have to give up to get him as well as how both KAT and Simmons would feel about the deal.

I see what your saying but does it really matter if Towns is happy playing with his buddy if this team goes .500 and misses the playoffs again next year?

I also disagree that not looking at the original trade isn't the way to look at it. Traded can effect a team for years because of players acquired.

Look at the Twins and The AJ trade

A.J. Pierzynski -> Francisco Liriano, Boof Bonser and Joe Nathan -> Eduardo Escobar -> Jhoan Duran who is currently the twins best pitching prospect.

A trade made in 2003 still effects the team till this day.

A while back I checked the oddsmakers predictions as to where Simmons ends up and the Wolves were nowhere near the top. I think staying in Philly was seen as most likely and the top suitors were Portland, Washington, Chicago, Warriors, OKC. With Morey at the helm and plenty of suitors for a young defensive difference maker, I don't see the Wolves getting any kind of discount. If the Wolves aren't prepared to give up at least two firsts or one first and McDaniels, I see zero chance of a deal. I'd think either DLO or Beasley would be included too, possibly both. I think the cost to get Simmons is a lot more than some on this thread expect.

What I am afraid it would cost: 2023 & 2025 firsts, McDaniels and either (A) DLO or (B) Beasley and Rubio. Would I do that deal? Not sure. If you remove McDaniels, I'd do it without hesitation.

Q12543 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

PorkChop wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:

PorkChop wrote:If a playoff team is ready to cast off their second best player shouldn't that throw up some red flags? If Simmons wasn't getting it done for them what makes us think he'll provide more to a lesser talented team in a more difficult conference?

Is DLO and Bease the answer? It's more about fit then anything. Simmons has some mental issues, has had years of bad press ()for not shooting 3's) and needs a fresh start. DLO and Bease in this hypothetical trade are not great defenders but Philly has several who are including Embiid. They can stand to take a little hit from the perimeter to improve their offense.

While the Wolves with KAT isn't a great defender. I see Simmons as a huge upgrade making our defense much better.

We need defense, they need offense. It's a win-win even if neither is "the answer" to winning a championship. Though potentially they could be.

If we give up those two guys we become a team that might be good defensively (might) but guaranteed to be a team that can't shoot from the perimeter. So what have we gained? Ant is a shot creator but by no means a threat from the perimeter.

Teams are scoring 110 to 115 a game. Even the best defensive teams dont stop that from happening consistently. You have to outscore the other team nowadays . Are you comfortable that this team can do that with this trade?

It's easier to find 3 and D guys then guys like Simmons though. At that point you look away from other non shooters like Okogie and Vandy. If any team can absorb Simmons on offense it should be one with the best big shooter in the NBA. KAT can focus more on 3's and Simmons down low.

3 & D players are very hard to find, especially for this franchise. I've documented this before, but we've basically had one in the last 10 years or so - Robert Covington. Literally, one guy that can hit 3s with volume and play plus-level defense. Jaden McDaniels might be the second if this franchise doesn't ruin his shot.

We've just ignored the position too much I think. There are a lot of avg/above avg 3P shooters who play plus defense. The fact that we haven't had many just shows we have drafted terribly. That and I think the Wolves have picked high and were looking for All Stars versus role players. Guys like Wiggins who didn't pan out.

I would look at any potential deal for Simmons as a long term deal as well. Don't just look at next season or pleasing KAT. Don't assume the roster is complete either. You can fill in players that help play off their weaknesses.

But, I'd love to keep KAT happy and I would ask him on his thoughts about a trade before doing it. If he was dead set against it I might not end up doing it (if you feel the compensation is close). KAT's feelings on it could sway a final decision.

Heck you could end up trading KAT next year too at that point and build around Simmons/Ant then all the picks/ players acquired from a KAT trade.

For me I think I can include Bease and DLO, while McDaniels is off the table. He has shown elite potential on defense and is on a rookie deal. Meaning his value is too high.

WolvesFan21 wrote:I would look at any potential deal for Simmons as a long term deal as well. Don't just look at next season or pleasing KAT. Don't assume the roster is complete either. You can fill in players that help play off their weaknesses.

But, I'd love to keep KAT happy and I would ask him on his thoughts about a trade before doing it. If he was dead set against it I might not end up doing it (if you feel the compensation is close). KAT's feelings on it could sway a final decision.

Heck you could end up trading KAT next year too at that point and build around Simmons/Ant then all the picks/ players acquired from a KAT trade.

For me I think I can include Bease and DLO, while McDaniels is off the table. He has shown elite potential on defense and is on a rookie deal. Meaning his value is too high.

That's a good analysis, Wolvesfan. I think there are a number of variables to consider. KAT's sentiments would be an important factor, but not necessary a decisive one. What Simmons thinks would matter too as another important factor to consider. And I could see ultimately trading KAT to facilitate a rebuild around Simmons, Ant and McDaniels. Ultimately, I think KG4 is right that the price will be steeper than some of us are speculating it would be. An important question would be how many future picks would the Wolves have to include and now protected would they be?

My bottom line is similar to yours. The three players I would absolutely NOT include in a Simmons deal would be KAT, Ant and McDaniels. Beyond that, whether I'd pull the trigger would depend on all the factors we've been discussing. Unfortunately, I don't trust Rosas to make a good deal. But we'll see.

I think Rosas should focus on adding a non-elite player who can strengthen our interior defense. That's really the only gaping hole on this team. Otherwise, I like the way we played down the stretch this past season and I see a lot of additional growth next season from Ant and McDaniels. KAT is just entering his prime and will hopefully be fully recovered from his wrist injury. DLO looked good down the stretch and Beasley was an elite 3-point shooter last season with even more upside at age 24.

I also fall on the side of pork chop. It's crazy nobody mentions the fact that simmons will cost 30 to 40 million per and can't shoot. That's crazy. He is not a max contract guy. He is well overpaid. On top of that there has been talk of his laziness in Philly and not listening to anybody.

Defense is great but being so terrible shooting the ball will kill us. Not to mention the bloated contract and also the picks that we will inevitably give up. He doesn't have the work ethic or drive to be great.

I have a sickening feeling about this whole deal. Rosas seems desperate and Morey will rake him over the coals.

That being said dlo for simmons I would be OK with, if kat is OK with which he wouldn't be.

A package around beasley I would do as we need defense and they need shooting. It likely won't be enough so I would walk away.

I'm OK with dealing for him if the price is right, but the price will be too high. Also that contract again. Also they better not deal Jaden. No ant no Jaden and no kat.

Ideal maybe Beasley Rubio Bolmaro and a couple 1sts. (Give em culver and juancho if they want them) Finch better damn well get a roster of Dlo, Ant, McDaniels, Simmons and Kat to the playoffs.

So in one thread we're trying to trade for a big guy, Stephen Adams... a guy who can't shoot, who has a limited ceiling and can only guard one position... and even then, only against a certain type of center.

In this thread, we're dismissing a trade for a big guy, Simmons... who can't shoot but who (until very recently) had a very high ceiling and can guard 5 positions.

Obviously, there's a difference in salary. Fair enough. But you build winners by top-end talent. The Wolves lack top-end talent. They have Towns. And Edwards has promise, even if the stats didn't show it yet... we saw the progress.

Is Simmons still an elite talent? Does he have the mental make-up of an elite talent? Those are the $170M questions. We can hear reports about laziness or unwillingness to listen or whatever. And there might be merit there. At the same time, he's become an elite defender... a role that normally isn't filled by lazy guys.

So there's this enigmatic uber talent who made the 2nd round of the playoffs every season in Philadelphia... including two game 7s. A guy who led that team to 17 straight wins (without Embiid) at one point. Do you know the last time the Wolves won 17 straight games? 12 straight games? 6 straight games? I don't think the Wolves have won 6 straight games since 2004.

I see talk about fit with a guy who can't shoot. Fair enough. But then I look at the current fit of the Wolves with TOO MANY guys who like to shoot.

Do we really believe that the Wolves have a legit playoff team right now? Are we confident that shoot-first players like Beasley, Russell and Edwards can all be at their best while on the court together? Are we confident that those three fighting for shots won't swallow up the team's most efficient player's shots?

A guy willing to pass. Willing to play defense. Willing to be Towns and Edwards sidekick as they battle it out for top dog. Imagine a Simmons who goes to a team with fewer expectations who can now be a #3 instead of #1a or #2 on offense. And a guy who can change the team's identity overnight.

There's a chance that works out, right?