Minnesota Sports Forum

Wow Embid choked a layup to win the game.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:True, Phoenix has made a hell of a turnaround.

The Boston Celtics made an epic turnaround - far more impressive than Phoenix - from winning 32 and then 29 games in '78 and '79, then winning 61 games in '80 for a 32-game turnaround in one season. Welcome to the NBA Larry Bird!

And also Phoenix wasn't quite overnight. Their turnaround seems a bit more dramatic than it really was. They ended last year 5 games under .500 and won 10 of their 11 last games so they were getting better before our eyes throughout last season.

Still, they got good pretty fast.

I didn't realize they were that close to .500 last year, but I do remember them playing great in the bubble.

I'll add that last season Ayton only played 38 games although Baynes actually was part of getting them off to a pretty good start early in the season.

Another consideration is Oubre didn't play down the stretch and didn't play at all in the bubble. Cameron Payne did though and I was fantastic overall playing in their last 8 games. He carried that into this year playing well.

Monte Williams was such an upgrade over their coaches the previous few years.

Speaking of massive upgrades they went from multiple fringe NBA players at PG to Rubio to a first ballot HOF PG in Chris Paul. Not sure how next season they are going to top a heathy Chris Paul at that position. Lol

I've now watched a ton of John Collins this postseason and I won money on his P/R/A line tonight but I just don't know what to think about him.

He would instantly make the Wolves better but I don't know if he is worth paying a asset for to just pay him the max. I think I would pass on him even though he makes the Wolves significantly better. (I would be more interested if it was a guarantee that Ant and McDaniels take a step this year)

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Donovan Mitchell is averaging 34.4 ppg over the past two seasons in the playoffs.



[Note: And for FNG... he's had a negative +/- in only two of those games... including the 57 point game where he had a 74% TS.]

Mitchell isn't a guy I would hitch my wagon to if I'm looking for a consistent positive contributor. I never thought of him as a poor defender before this year, but he just looks like a different guy on defense now...even DLO-like at times. And it shows up in the on/off stats, as his -6 ranked 8th on the Jazz this season...besting only an aging Derrick Favors and Jordan Clarkson. I noticed some improvement earlier in the playoffs like you point out and thought he might be turning things around on that end of the court, but he's really slipped in the past two games with a -10 in game 3 and a team-worst -15 last night. And he had the worst +/- among Jazz starters in Game 2 also, as the usual suspects (Favors, Clarkson and Mitchell) were again the only negative players on the team in that win.

I suggested earlier that Mitchell's poor defense might be something that would hold the Jazz back during the playoffs. I'm not going to suggest that he is the main reason they likely don't escape this round...losing Conley is obviously the main reason. But as I watch the Clippers/Jazz series closely, it's apparent it's becoming increasingly more difficult for Quin Snyder to hide Mitchell on defense. I don't know if he's hurt, or just disinterested. But 2-way players win games as the playoffs progress, and while Mitchell is without question a marvelous offensive force, he just isn't passing the eye test on the defensive end of the court...and it's showing up in the box score as the Clippers series continues.

FNG wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Donovan Mitchell is averaging 34.4 ppg over the past two seasons in the playoffs.



[Note: And for FNG... he's had a negative +/- in only two of those games... including the 57 point game where he had a 74% TS.]

Mitchell isn't a guy I would hitch my wagon to if I'm looking for a consistent positive contributor. I never thought of him as a poor defender before this year, but he just looks like a different guy on defense now...even DLO-like at times. And it shows up in the on/off stats, as his -6 ranked 8th on the Jazz this season...besting only an aging Derrick Favors and Jordan Clarkson. I noticed some improvement earlier in the playoffs like you point out and thought he might be turning things around on that end of the court, but he's really slipped in the past two games with a -10 in game 3 and a team-worst -15 last night. And he had the worst +/- among Jazz starters in Game 2 also, as the usual suspects (Favors, Clarkson and Mitchell) were again the only negative players on the team in that win.

I suggested earlier that Mitchell's poor defense might be something that would hold the Jazz back during the playoffs. I'm not going to suggest that he is the main reason they likely don't escape this round...losing Conley is obviously the main reason. But as I watch the Clippers/Jazz series closely, it's apparent it's becoming increasingly more difficult for Quin Snyder to hide Mitchell on defense. I don't know if he's hurt, or just disinterested. But 2-way players win games as the playoffs progress, and while Mitchell is without question a marvelous offensive force, he just isn't passing the eye test on the defensive end of the court...and it's showing up in the box score as the Clippers series continues.

I remember thinking Mitchell looked really good defensively when he played in Summer League after getting drafted, and I think he was kind of pitched as a two-way combo guard going into that draft.

It's weird how some guys can go in that direction (I'm looking at you, KAT), and then you have other guys, like Ben Simmons, who supposedly sucked on defense at LSU, and has just become a monster on that end.

I totally agree with the need for 2 way guys. I will say this though. I think a good, solid team can survive with an offensive star who doesn't always play great D during the regular season, as long as he has the mentality to ratchet it up in the playoffs. I think that's because it's easier to make a big improvement on the defensive end through effort than it is on the offensive end, where effort just can't replace skill. Of course, defense also requires skills and you don't want a guy legitimizing laziness, but I do think that all else being equal going into the playoffs, I'd rather have an offensive star who didn't show great effort on D during the regular season than a defensive star who has limited offensive skills.

Our problem is, between DLO, KAT, and Ant, we've basically got 3 of those guys, and there's not much of a solid team around them.

I haven't watched Mitchell that closely on defense. Could it be that he is relied upon so much to create offense that he just can't expend the energy defensively (?). I mean, look at Atlanta with Trae Young. You can't tell me Mitchell is more of a liability than Trae!

This is why Kawhi Leonard is such an effing monster. The guy will just grind a team down with how he plays on both ends of the court. I think of Jimmy Butler as a somewhat lesser version of Kawhi. Not many players like this in the NBA...Big, strong 2-way wings.

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:

FNG wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Donovan Mitchell is averaging 34.4 ppg over the past two seasons in the playoffs.



[Note: And for FNG... he's had a negative +/- in only two of those games... including the 57 point game where he had a 74% TS.]

Mitchell isn't a guy I would hitch my wagon to if I'm looking for a consistent positive contributor. I never thought of him as a poor defender before this year, but he just looks like a different guy on defense now...even DLO-like at times. And it shows up in the on/off stats, as his -6 ranked 8th on the Jazz this season...besting only an aging Derrick Favors and Jordan Clarkson. I noticed some improvement earlier in the playoffs like you point out and thought he might be turning things around on that end of the court, but he's really slipped in the past two games with a -10 in game 3 and a team-worst -15 last night. And he had the worst +/- among Jazz starters in Game 2 also, as the usual suspects (Favors, Clarkson and Mitchell) were again the only negative players on the team in that win.

I suggested earlier that Mitchell's poor defense might be something that would hold the Jazz back during the playoffs. I'm not going to suggest that he is the main reason they likely don't escape this round...losing Conley is obviously the main reason. But as I watch the Clippers/Jazz series closely, it's apparent it's becoming increasingly more difficult for Quin Snyder to hide Mitchell on defense. I don't know if he's hurt, or just disinterested. But 2-way players win games as the playoffs progress, and while Mitchell is without question a marvelous offensive force, he just isn't passing the eye test on the defensive end of the court...and it's showing up in the box score as the Clippers series continues.

I remember thinking Mitchell looked really good defensively when he played in Summer League after getting drafted, and I think he was kind of pitched as a two-way combo guard going into that draft.

It's weird how some guys can go in that direction (I'm looking at you, KAT), and then you have other guys, like Ben Simmons, who supposedly sucked on defense at LSU, and has just become a monster on that end.

I totally agree with the need for 2 way guys. I will say this though. I think a good, solid team can survive with an offensive star who doesn't always play great D during the regular season, as long as he has the mentality to ratchet it up in the playoffs. I think that's because it's easier to make a big improvement on the defensive end through effort than it is on the offensive end, where effort just can't replace skill. Of course, defense also requires skills and you don't want a guy legitimizing laziness, but I do think that all else being equal going into the playoffs, I'd rather have an offensive star who didn't show great effort on D during the regular season than a defensive star who has limited offensive skills.

Our problem is, between DLO, KAT, and Ant, we've basically got 3 of those guys, and there's not much of a solid team around them.

Ha. I knew FNG wouldn't be able to resist.

It's interesting Ben Simmons was mentioned. He has become a legit defensive force... but he went the 2nd half of yesterday's game taking only one shot.

He was a complete non-entity on offense. So maybe the lesson is that it's actually pretty damn hard to be an elite player on both ends of the court consistently? There are few guys out there capable of doing both for 40 minutes.



[Note: The Jazz with Mitchell have been a top 4 defensive team in 3 of the past 4 seasons... obviously, Gobert helps. And the scheme funneling everything to him as well.]

Speaking of defense, is there any doubt that Clint Capela was a brilliant acquisition by Atlanta? They aren't where they are in these playoffs without him helping to anchor the paint.

Q12543 wrote:Speaking of defense, is there any doubt that Clint Capela was a brilliant acquisition by Atlanta? They aren't where they are in these playoffs without him helping to anchor the paint.

And I think they only gave up Evan Turner, a 1st rd pick (from Brooklyn) and a 2024 2nd rd. pick.

Q12543 wrote:I haven't watched Mitchell that closely on defense. Could it be that he is relied upon so much to create offense that he just can't expend the energy defensively (?). I mean, look at Atlanta with Trae Young. You can't tell me Mitchell is more of a liability than Trae!

This is why Kawhi Leonard is such an effing monster. The guy will just grind a team down with how he plays on both ends of the court. I think of Jimmy Butler as a somewhat lesser version of Kawhi. Not many players like this in the NBA...Big, strong 2-way wings.

Q - Yes, I think part or maybe even more of the issue with Mitchell is how much of the offensive burden he has to bear. The other star on his team, Gobert, provides very little on the offensive end. Title contenders typically have two stars and usually both stars can shoulder a large portion of the offensive burden and often draw double teams. Kawhi has Paul George as his other star. Paul George is an offensive forces as well as an excellent defender.