We need this one....Badly: Portland@Wolves GDT

[Monster]

You guys should bring the next level hatred of Wiggins every game. Got us the win. Go wolves.

It is kinda amazing isn't it

You don't think he's trash?

I think people are being super hyperbolic about him. Is he playing like a max player, nope. Is he as bad as people are claiming, nope. He does this every year. At the beginning of the year through the 1st 10 games or so, there was posts about he has turned a new leaf and is the most improved player (similar to last year). Now his shot had Fallin off and it is super easy to rip him now. In a couple of weeks he will turn it on again and we will ask if he has finally turned the corner. The same thing has happened every year of his pro career.

I actually think his defense has been solid all year. (Not elite).

+1

[AbeVigodaLive]

A

You guys should bring the next level hatred of Wiggins every game. Got us the win. Go wolves.

It is kinda amazing isn't it

You don't think he's trash?

I think people are being super hyperbolic about him. Is he playing like a max player, nope. Is he as bad as people are claiming, nope. He does this every year. At the beginning of the year through the 1st 10 games or so, there was posts about he has turned a new leaf and is the most improved player (similar to last year). Now his shot had Fallin off and it is super easy to rip him now. In a couple of weeks he will turn it on again and we will ask if he has finally turned the corner. The same thing has happened every year of his pro career.

I actually think his defense has been solid all year. (Not elite).

+1

I think people are simply frustrated that the guy hasn't improved in any significant way in four seasons... and possibly regressed a bit... maybe. We'll see.

That's concerning considering he's getting paid incredibly well next year (and beyond) not based on previous work nearly as much as on assumptions that he was going to make a huge leap.

We can't keep giving these guys passes because they're "young." Nearly 300 games in is enough to show progress.

[Lipoli390]

You guys should bring the next level hatred of Wiggins every game. Got us the win. Go wolves.

It is kinda amazing isn't it

You don't think he's trash?

I think people are being super hyperbolic about him. Is he playing like a max player, nope. Is he as bad as people are claiming, nope. He does this every year. At the beginning of the year through the 1st 10 games or so, there was posts about he has turned a new leaf and is the most improved player (similar to last year). Now his shot had Fallin off and it is super easy to rip him now. In a couple of weeks he will turn it on again and we will ask if he has finally turned the corner. The same thing has happened every year of his pro career.

I actually think his defense has been solid all year. (Not elite).

+1

-1. :). Honestly, I don't think people are getting hyperbolic when it comes to Wiggins. It's well-founded frustration as Wiggins shows little if any improvement well into his 4th NBA season. I wish it were only his horrific shooting slump. I wish it were only the fact that he rarely attacks the rim or gets to the free throw line. I wish it were simply the fact that he's hitting only around 63% of his free throws. I wish he had a move other than his spin move to the basket. I wish he had decent hands and a good handle. I wish a 6-rebound night like his game tonight was the rule and not the exception. Oh, and I wish didn't see him repeatedly ball-watching even in games like tonight's when he's more aggressive than usual. There were at least two players where he was close enough to shooter than he might have been able to disrupt or even block the shot if he had bothered to move and extend his arms.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

"Hey guys, I'm not playing again tonight so I thought I'd jump on here, I'm also gonna make $97,950 tonight.

-Cole

Ha, that's good Jerry!

(and a little sad #firethibs)

[thedoper]

You guys should bring the next level hatred of Wiggins every game. Got us the win. Go wolves.

It is kinda amazing isn't it

You don't think he's trash?

I think people are being super hyperbolic about him. Is he playing like a max player, nope. Is he as bad as people are claiming, nope. He does this every year. At the beginning of the year through the 1st 10 games or so, there was posts about he has turned a new leaf and is the most improved player (similar to last year). Now his shot had Fallin off and it is super easy to rip him now. In a couple of weeks he will turn it on again and we will ask if he has finally turned the corner. The same thing has happened every year of his pro career.

I actually think his defense has been solid all year. (Not elite).

It's total hyperbole. I appreciate you saying this. Going into this season people wanted more team D from Wiggins and for him to settle in being 3rd option. He's seemed to have done both. Now he's not hitting his shots and he sucks apparently and should be traded ASAP.

The bigger thing for me is that I try to come here for insightful Wolves related basketball insight and it's become a broken record of Fire Thibs and Wiggins sucks and all while we're 4th in the west. The insightful basketball talk seems to have taken a back seat during Wiggins' slump. One of my greatest influencers in my academics told me the easiest thing to do intellectually is to say what is wrong with something. It's been a disease around here for weeks. It's too bad because I know that almost all of the posters here are capable of a more stimulating discussion.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

You guys should bring the next level hatred of Wiggins every game. Got us the win. Go wolves.

It is kinda amazing isn't it

You don't think he's trash?

I think people are being super hyperbolic about him. Is he playing like a max player, nope. Is he as bad as people are claiming, nope. He does this every year. At the beginning of the year through the 1st 10 games or so, there was posts about he has turned a new leaf and is the most improved player (similar to last year). Now his shot had Fallin off and it is super easy to rip him now. In a couple of weeks he will turn it on again and we will ask if he has finally turned the corner. The same thing has happened every year of his pro career.

I actually think his defense has been solid all year. (Not elite).

It's total hyperbole. I appreciate you saying this. Going into this season people wanted more team D from Wiggins and for him to settle in being 3rd option. He's seemed to have done both. Now he's not hitting his shots and he sucks apparently and should be traded ASAP.

The bigger thing for me is that I try to come here for insightful Wolves related basketball insight and it's become a broken record of Fire Thibs and Wiggins sucks and all while we're 4th in the west. The insightful basketball talk seems to have taken a back seat during Wiggins' slump. One of my greatest influencers in my academics told me the easiest thing to do intellectually is to say what is wrong with something. It's been a disease around here for weeks. It's too bad because I know that almost all of the posters here are capable of a more stimulating discussion.

I agree that being 4th in the west is good, but still there are many of us here who think this team is underachieving and want to understand the reasons for it. We have a team that has 2 former #1 picks and a clear top 10 player in Jimmy Butler, along with several other lottery picks, and yet we continue to lose games that we should win...such as this week's home loss to a bad Suns team missing its best player. Yes, there's a lot of talk about Thibs and Wig here, but that's because a lot of smart basketball minds see them as the primary reasons for our underachieving and provide data that helps some of us understand why we are underachieving.

Personally, I don't think Wig sucks. But I do think his on-court demeanor lacks passion, and that his stats are not anywhere close to what we might expect from a former #1 pick about to be paid a max contract. By almost any statistical measure, he ranks in the lower half of NBA starting SFs, and many of us are frustrated and think he needs to do perform better. That may be a broken record here, but it's also data that can't be ignored.

I also think Thibs is holding back this team by his refusal to use a roster that was largely constructed by him. His bench minutes are far behind the second lowest bench minutes...that's a fact. What we use this board for is to analyze whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. I happen to think it is a bad thing, and point to the continuing 4th quarter collapses against inferior teams of evidence of that. It's interesting to me that last night was a rare occurrence where the opponent used their bench almost as little as Thibs did (not because Thibs was appropriate, but rather because Portland was just as bad). And the result was predictable. Rather than looking dog-tired compared to our opponent in the 4th quarter and getting our asses kicked, our superior talent was allowed to shine through and for once WE were the team making the 4th quarter comeback. Maybe Thibs will see how different this game was from the previous Suns game and learn from it, but I don't think he will.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

You guys should bring the next level hatred of Wiggins every game. Got us the win. Go wolves.

It is kinda amazing isn't it

You don't think he's trash?

I think people are being super hyperbolic about him. Is he playing like a max player, nope. Is he as bad as people are claiming, nope. He does this every year. At the beginning of the year through the 1st 10 games or so, there was posts about he has turned a new leaf and is the most improved player (similar to last year). Now his shot had Fallin off and it is super easy to rip him now. In a couple of weeks he will turn it on again and we will ask if he has finally turned the corner. The same thing has happened every year of his pro career.

I actually think his defense has been solid all year. (Not elite).

It's total hyperbole. I appreciate you saying this. Going into this season people wanted more team D from Wiggins and for him to settle in being 3rd option. He's seemed to have done both. Now he's not hitting his shots and he sucks apparently and should be traded ASAP.

The bigger thing for me is that I try to come here for insightful Wolves related basketball insight and it's become a broken record of Fire Thibs and Wiggins sucks and all while we're 4th in the west. The insightful basketball talk seems to have taken a back seat during Wiggins' slump. One of my greatest influencers in my academics told me the easiest thing to do intellectually is to say what is wrong with something. It's been a disease around here for weeks. It's too bad because I know that almost all of the posters here are capable of a more stimulating discussion.

Interesting you say that Doper considering how much biting sarcasm are often in your posts. That's also an easy path to take and I doubt your academic mentor would approve!

That being said, people are frustrated. Wiggins is no longer measured by the "high draft pick, lots of potential on rookie contract" bar. He's now being measured against a Max freakin' contract. Fans are going to turn on a guy on a $100M+ deal when his shot isn't going down AND he doesn't play hard consistently. That's just normal fandom.

Some of us that consider ourselves at least semi-insightful have been raising the flags on Wiggins for years. This wasn't hyperbolic ranting and raving; this was based off a combination of careful watching how he plays and using advanced stats. What was initially some prodding and questioning has now become downright anger. And I agree, some of the statements are hyperbolic, but that's what happens when a max player underperforms and doesn't look like he cares all that much.

[thedoper]

You guys should bring the next level hatred of Wiggins every game. Got us the win. Go wolves.

It is kinda amazing isn't it

You don't think he's trash?

I think people are being super hyperbolic about him. Is he playing like a max player, nope. Is he as bad as people are claiming, nope. He does this every year. At the beginning of the year through the 1st 10 games or so, there was posts about he has turned a new leaf and is the most improved player (similar to last year). Now his shot had Fallin off and it is super easy to rip him now. In a couple of weeks he will turn it on again and we will ask if he has finally turned the corner. The same thing has happened every year of his pro career.

I actually think his defense has been solid all year. (Not elite).

It's total hyperbole. I appreciate you saying this. Going into this season people wanted more team D from Wiggins and for him to settle in being 3rd option. He's seemed to have done both. Now he's not hitting his shots and he sucks apparently and should be traded ASAP.

The bigger thing for me is that I try to come here for insightful Wolves related basketball insight and it's become a broken record of Fire Thibs and Wiggins sucks and all while we're 4th in the west. The insightful basketball talk seems to have taken a back seat during Wiggins' slump. One of my greatest influencers in my academics told me the easiest thing to do intellectually is to say what is wrong with something. It's been a disease around here for weeks. It's too bad because I know that almost all of the posters here are capable of a more stimulating discussion.

Interesting you say that Doper considering how much biting sarcasm are often in your posts. That's also an easy path to take and I doubt your academic mentor would approve!

That being said, people are frustrated. Wiggins is no longer measured by the "high draft pick, lots of potential on rookie contract" bar. He's now being measured against a Max freakin' contract. Fans are going to turn on a guy on a $100M+ deal when his shot isn't going down AND he doesn't play hard consistently. That's just normal fandom.

Some of us that consider ourselves at least semi-insightful have been raising the flags on Wiggins for years. This wasn't hyperbolic ranting and raving; this was based off a combination of careful watching how he plays and using advanced stats. What was initially some prodding and questioning has now become downright anger. And I agree, some of the statements are hyperbolic, but that's what happens when a max player underperforms and doesn't look like he cares all that much.

He'd totally approve of sarcasm, it's funny. If we can't laugh at ourselves and our opinions then there's really no point being a Timberwolves fan, or of any Minnesota sports team really.

[Lipoli390]

I watched a recording of the second half earlier tonight. I noticed something I missed watching it live. At one point when the Wolves were playing defense, Crawford put his hands on Teague's back and shoved him forward to get up on Lillard. It was hillarious and I loved it. One of our problems on defense is that our perimeter defenders often leave too much space between themselves and the guys they're defending. Crawford's not a great defender, but he brings a level of energy and intelligence our guards and wings (except Jimmy) lack.

One of the things I like about watching Wolves games on TV is listening to Jim Peterson. He provides a lot of great insights. He returned to a theme I've heard from him before when he talked about the Wolves poor perimeter defense and how our bigs get unfairly blamed for bad defense as a result. Jim Pete said that our bigs have to step out on nearly every possession because our perimeter defenders don't contain. Butler's the exception. The others -- Wiggins, Teague, Crawford, Bazz -- too often get beat off the dribble. Wiggins is the worst. Watch and you'll notice that the guy he's defending always gets by him. Teague sometimes stays in front of his guy as evidenced by the fact that he draws some charges every now and then. Crawford really puts a lot of effort and energy on the defensive end and makes some nice defensive plays as he did when he forced that turnover near half court that led to a Jimmy Butler dunk. But collectively, our perimeter defenders simply don't contain penetration they way they need to.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I watched a recording of the second half earlier tonight. I noticed something I missed watching it live. At one point when the Wolves were playing defense, Crawford put his hands on Teague's back and shoved him forward to get up on Lillard. It was hillarious and I loved it. One of our problems on defense is that our perimeter defenders often leave too much space between themselves and the guys they're defending. Crawford's not a great defender, but he brings a level of energy and intelligence our guards and wings (except Jimmy) lack.

One of the things I like about watching Wolves games on TV is listening to Jim Peterson. He provides a lot of great insights. He returned to a theme I've heard from him before when he talked about the Wolves poor perimeter defense and how our bigs get unfairly blamed for bad defense as a result. Jim Pete said that our bigs have to step out on nearly every possession because our perimeter defenders don't contain. Butler's the exception. The others -- Wiggins, Teague, Crawford, Bazz -- too often get beat off the dribble. Wiggins is the worst. Watch and you'll notice that the guy he's defending always gets by him. Teague sometimes stays in front of his guy as evidenced by the fact that he draws some charges every now and then. Crawford really puts a lot of effort and energy on the defensive end and makes some nice defensive plays as he did when he forced that turnover near half court that led to a Jimmy Butler dunk. But collectively, our perimeter defenders simply don't contain penetration they way they need to.

Yes, Crawford's energy on defense belies his poor defensive reputation. I agree with you though about his inability to contain his man, despite what seems to be adequate defensive intensity.

I'm not able to watch games for a few weeks here, so I'm relying on the board for observations beyond the box score I have access to. I notice that we have been uncharacteristically making defensive stops late in games against Denver and Portland, and I have attributed it to better bench use by Thibs. Could there be a different factor in play here? I note that Crawford is getting crunch time minutes instead of Wig and adding some big buckets. Scary thought here, but could it be that Crawford is an upgrade defensively over Wig? I really hope not, because we need Wig to live up to the defensive potential he showed in college for us to reach our potential. Is Crawford a better defender currently than Wig. What do the defensive numbers say as to defensive rating of the starting lineup compared to 4 starters plus Crawford?