Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Looks like this thread has devolved again into a debate about Ricky. I didn't see the game, but looking at the box score I saw a fairly familiar 0-5 in Ricky's scoring column. I share Pork's fatigue with a PG who can't establish himself as a scoring threat.

But again, if we're looking for primary reasons for why we lost this last game, we have to look first and foremost at the performance of those on this team who are EXPECTED to score -- namely our core three and our glue-guy C/PF, Gorgui. When one of our core three -- in this case Towns -- makes only 3 of his 15 shots (20%), including 0-6 behind the arc, we should expect to lose. Add to that the fact that Wiggins missed 4 of 7 free throws while Zach missed 2 of his 3 free throw attempts. Then we have our starting PF (Gorgui) hitting only 38% of his field goal attempts. We simply can't have one of our core three missing 12 of 15 shots and expect to win. And our two wing "stars" can't make only 4 of 10 free throws if we're going to beat comparably talented teams.

Yes, I'd love to upgrade our PG position with someone who can run the offense, defend AND score. But I'm more concerned about the offensive inconsistency we're seeing from our core three, including Andrew's inconsistent effort. I remained concerned about Andrew's continuing unreliability from the free-throw line. And I'm even more concerned about our poor team defense, which is attributable to the entire team. We're not going to be able to replace Ricky with a top PG who can shoot. Instead, if we're going to seriously upgrade that position, we're going to have to count on Dunn's development. Until then, I'm growing tired of the lack of consistency from our core three. Yes, they're young, but I'm tired of the youth excuse as well.

While I agree about much of this... that's just too much pressure on 21 year old kids.

Have a bad game... or even mediocre offensive game... lose. Many teams have a bench guy who can do more than expected to steal a win or three during the season. The Wolves don't even have 5 starters capable of doing that.

If Rubio is absolved of getting blamed for bad losses when he's 0 - 5 and lit up defensively... it's time for us to stop giving him so much praise when he goes 1 - 4 and the Wolves win because Towns goes 13 - 22 fg. My primary problem with the Rubio discussions for 6 years now is that he gets his cake and eats it too in the aforementioned scenarios.

Q12543 wrote:

Camden wrote:Q, I can think of several clutch, or practically game-winning plays for each of our big three and I'll list them at the bottom, BUT that's not to discredit your argument in regards to Rubio. He has made *some* big plays when they're needed.

Just a thought, but I feel like there are a lot of Wolves fans that are just tired of seeing the same formula. Multiple potent scorers (Love, Pekovic, Martin, Young, Wiggins, LaVine, Towns) led by a non-scoring threat floor general (Rubio) and no rim protection (???). We have watched this formula for almost a decade and the results have been the same for whatever reason. I can say for myself that I fit this billet. As a fan/consumer and (educated) spectator of the sport, I'm just ready for a change. I find myself legitimately surprised and excited whenever Rubio makes a simple layup. While he does other things that I enjoy seeing, such as his passing, that feeling has just grown old for me.

Towns:

- Game-saving blocked shot to force overtime against Orlando.

- Game-winning right hook to beat Portland.

- Game-clinching layup to beat Golden State. Set the screen for Wiggins, slipped the screen when the double-team came, received the pass just inside the three-point line and attacked the basket. Converted and got fouled, made the free throw.

Wiggins:

- Game-winning assist to beat Oklahoma City last season. Attacked the paint, got Westbrook to collapse from the perimeter, kicked it out to Rubio right in the shooter's pocket and he drilled it. Gotta give Wiggins a lot of credit there.

- Game-winning and game-clinching buckets against Chicago last season. Post-up, right hand hook after a couple dribbles to re-take the lead with 1:30 left. Later, he got a loose ball, spun in the paint and got a layup to go to put us up once again. And then with about 0:20 left, he drilled a pull-up mid-range jumper going left to ice the game.

- Game-tying three-pointer earlier this season against Charlotte. Dribbled the ball from half court to the right slot and pulled up, nailed it.

LaVine:

- Down six, with under 1:00 left to play, he drilled back-to-back deep three-pointers to tie the game against Utah last season.

- Game-tying three-pointer against Washington last season. In overtime, LaVine with the ball at the top of the key, passed to Dieng at the left slot, got it right back, took a dribble and nailed the jumper over Gortat.

Well done Cam! A few nit-picks....

KAT
- We lost the Orlando game.
- Yup, that's the one I remembered off the top of my head. Memorable play.
- We were already up by two and had possession, but yes, big play.

Wiggins
- Yes, great kick out to Rubio.
- On prior possession, Rubio went 2 for 2 from the line to get us within one, then Wiggins went to work.
- On prior possession, Rubio hit a 3-pointer to get us within one, then Wiggins went to work....then Rubio came up with the big defensive plays.

LaVine
- Honestly couldn't remember either of these games. Did we end up winning the Utah game?


What is unfortunate is that the vast majority of these examples, including one of mine for Rubio, happened last year.

My original point to Kahns was that Rubio has indeed had his hand in "game winning" plays. Given the role KAT, Wiggins, and LaVine play, they SHOULD have more opportunities than anyone else to win (or lose) games in the waning moments. Unfortunately, the list of game-losing plays in the waning moments would be a far longer list. But youth, different coach, new system, blah, blah, blah.....Yes, I know, patience.

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Camden wrote:Q, I can think of several clutch, or practically game-winning plays for each of our big three and I'll list them at the bottom, BUT that's not to discredit your argument in regards to Rubio. He has made *some* big plays when they're needed.

Just a thought, but I feel like there are a lot of Wolves fans that are just tired of seeing the same formula. Multiple potent scorers (Love, Pekovic, Martin, Young, Wiggins, LaVine, Towns) led by a non-scoring threat floor general (Rubio) and no rim protection (???). We have watched this formula for almost a decade and the results have been the same for whatever reason. I can say for myself that I fit this billet. As a fan/consumer and (educated) spectator of the sport, I'm just ready for a change. I find myself legitimately surprised and excited whenever Rubio makes a simple layup. While he does other things that I enjoy seeing, such as his passing, that feeling has just grown old for me.

Towns:

- Game-saving blocked shot to force overtime against Orlando.

- Game-winning right hook to beat Portland.

- Game-clinching layup to beat Golden State. Set the screen for Wiggins, slipped the screen when the double-team came, received the pass just inside the three-point line and attacked the basket. Converted and got fouled, made the free throw.

Wiggins:

- Game-winning assist to beat Oklahoma City last season. Attacked the paint, got Westbrook to collapse from the perimeter, kicked it out to Rubio right in the shooter's pocket and he drilled it. Gotta give Wiggins a lot of credit there.

- Game-winning and game-clinching buckets against Chicago last season. Post-up, right hand hook after a couple dribbles to re-take the lead with 1:30 left. Later, he got a loose ball, spun in the paint and got a layup to go to put us up once again. And then with about 0:20 left, he drilled a pull-up mid-range jumper going left to ice the game.

- Game-tying three-pointer earlier this season against Charlotte. Dribbled the ball from half court to the right slot and pulled up, nailed it.

LaVine:

- Down six, with under 1:00 left to play, he drilled back-to-back deep three-pointers to tie the game against Utah last season.

- Game-tying three-pointer against Washington last season. In overtime, LaVine with the ball at the top of the key, passed to Dieng at the left slot, got it right back, took a dribble and nailed the jumper over Gortat.

Well done Cam! A few nit-picks....

KAT
- We lost the Orlando game.
- Yup, that's the one I remembered off the top of my head. Memorable play.
- We were already up by two and had possession, but yes, big play.

Wiggins
- Yes, great kick out to Rubio.
- On prior possession, Rubio went 2 for 2 from the line to get us within one, then Wiggins went to work.
- On prior possession, Rubio hit a 3-pointer to get us within one, then Wiggins went to work....then Rubio came up with the big defensive plays.

LaVine
- Honestly couldn't remember either of these games. Did we end up winning the Utah game?


What is unfortunate is that the vast majority of these examples, including one of mine for Rubio, happened last year.

My original point to Kahns was that Rubio has indeed had his hand in "game winning" plays. Given the role KAT, Wiggins, and LaVine play, they SHOULD have more opportunities than anyone else to win (or lose) games in the waning moments. Unfortunately, the list of game-losing plays in the waning moments would be a far longer list. But youth, different coach, new system, blah, blah, blah.....Yes, I know, patience.

When I say step up, I don't mean for 1 play. I mean for a whole game when has he stepped up and you look back and say Ricky Rubio was our best player that game and we won because of his play? These young guys are so inconsistent that a normal run of the mill PG would have had a few by now. Ricky has had few since he's been here (6 years!!!). Games aren't decided by one play. They're decided by 48 minutes of play. How many times have we been able to say someone outside the big 3 stepped up in a game and led us to victory? That's why we keep losing. We need 3 21 year olds to step up every night because nobody else does and that's not a formula for success in this league. Patty Mills and Wes Matthews (Portland edition) are two off the top of my head that are solid players who just win you some games even when you have other stars on the team. We don't have that guy. That's what I mean when I say who else is stepping up. You can't say that about Ricky if you have two 1 play examples in the last year and a half.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Looks like this thread has devolved again into a debate about Ricky. I didn't see the game, but looking at the box score I saw a fairly familiar 0-5 in Ricky's scoring column. I share Pork's fatigue with a PG who can't establish himself as a scoring threat.

But again, if we're looking for primary reasons for why we lost this last game, we have to look first and foremost at the performance of those on this team who are EXPECTED to score -- namely our core three and our glue-guy C/PF, Gorgui. When one of our core three -- in this case Towns -- makes only 3 of his 15 shots (20%), including 0-6 behind the arc, we should expect to lose. Add to that the fact that Wiggins missed 4 of 7 free throws while Zach missed 2 of his 3 free throw attempts. Then we have our starting PF (Gorgui) hitting only 38% of his field goal attempts. We simply can't have one of our core three missing 12 of 15 shots and expect to win. And our two wing "stars" can't make only 4 of 10 free throws if we're going to beat comparably talented teams.

Yes, I'd love to upgrade our PG position with someone who can run the offense, defend AND score. But I'm more concerned about the offensive inconsistency we're seeing from our core three, including Andrew's inconsistent effort. I remained concerned about Andrew's continuing unreliability from the free-throw line. And I'm even more concerned about our poor team defense, which is attributable to the entire team. We're not going to be able to replace Ricky with a top PG who can shoot. Instead, if we're going to seriously upgrade that position, we're going to have to count on Dunn's development. Until then, I'm growing tired of the lack of consistency from our core three. Yes, they're young, but I'm tired of the youth excuse as well.

While I agree about much of this... that's just too much pressure on 21 year old kids.

Have a bad game... or even mediocre offensive game... lose. Many teams have a bench guy who can do more than expected to steal a win or three during the season. The Wolves don't even have 5 starters capable of doing that.

If Rubio is absolved of getting blamed for bad losses when he's 0 - 5 and lit up defensively... it's time for us to stop giving him so much praise when he goes 1 - 4 and the Wolves win because Towns goes 13 - 22 fg. My primary problem with the Rubio discussions for 6 years now is that he gets his cake and eats it too in the aforementioned scenarios.

thedoper wrote:If Ricky is relevant to our future let's trade him for an expiring and give that money to someone who can be part of are future.