Minnesota Sports Forum

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:I think what I'm having trouble with in this discussion is in trying to figure out what really is the point being made? We have a segment telling us how Drew is struggling, and how his numbers don't compare well with other players who became stars. But they don't want to say definitively that this means he can't become a great player. I can say with confidence that we all watch the games, we all see most of the same things. We know when Drew or Zach have a bad stretch vs a good one. It's pretty apparent that neither are going to have a Kevin Durant rookie year.

The question is so what?

None of this has changed my opinion that Drew is going to be an all star player in this league, and I'm not shy about telling you so. But I don't think we were 15 games into the season before the downer brigade started to piss and moan about Drew's play and deficiencies. They come on here and ramble about things that everyone can plainly see. But they won't stick their neck out and tell us anything that we can't see. If you think that Drew's early offensive struggles are relative to his career path, tell me that. If you think he's too passive to ever become an alpha dog for a contending team, tell me that. But what I'm already tired of is you using the rest of the group as a sounding board for your incessant negative replaying of the season so far. We're all frustrated as TWolve fans. Of course we're anxious about the development of our young players. It's really all that matters at this point. But it's all out there for us to see.

If you want to be compelling instead of just complaining, tell me what it means in your opinion. And don't hide behind some caveat or disclaimer.

Thank you Cool for being the board arbiter for what and what cannot be discussed here.

Just because people don't agree with you... doesn't mean there's any reason to dismiss what they're saying. You see the same guys do it repeatedly on here. And it's usually simply because somebody doesn't see the same things with the same perpetually rosy glasses.

It's not that I disagree with you, I'm just asking that you actually say something with conviction.

Seems like you're trying to bait people into saying stuff they've already said repeatedly.

"Wiggins isn't playing very well. Hopefully, he improves. It's too early and foolish to make any career projections for him."

Been said many times, many ways... some people used specific examples. Some people provided articles. Some people provided stats. I don't know what more you want.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:I think what I'm having trouble with in this discussion is in trying to figure out what really is the point being made? We have a segment telling us how Drew is struggling, and how his numbers don't compare well with other players who became stars. But they don't want to say definitively that this means he can't become a great player. I can say with confidence that we all watch the games, we all see most of the same things. We know when Drew or Zach have a bad stretch vs a good one. It's pretty apparent that neither are going to have a Kevin Durant rookie year.

The question is so what?

None of this has changed my opinion that Drew is going to be an all star player in this league, and I'm not shy about telling you so. But I don't think we were 15 games into the season before the downer brigade started to piss and moan about Drew's play and deficiencies. They come on here and ramble about things that everyone can plainly see. But they won't stick their neck out and tell us anything that we can't see. If you think that Drew's early offensive struggles are relative to his career path, tell me that. If you think he's too passive to ever become an alpha dog for a contending team, tell me that. But what I'm already tired of is you using the rest of the group as a sounding board for your incessant negative replaying of the season so far. We're all frustrated as TWolve fans. Of course we're anxious about the development of our young players. It's really all that matters at this point. But it's all out there for us to see.

If you want to be compelling instead of just complaining, tell me what it means in your opinion. And don't hide behind some caveat or disclaimer.

Thank you Cool for being the board arbiter for what and what cannot be discussed here.

Just because people don't agree with you... doesn't mean there's any reason to dismiss what they're saying. You see the same guys do it repeatedly on here. And it's usually simply because somebody doesn't see the same things with the same perpetually rosy glasses.

It has nothing to do with not agreeing with people. Everything about Wiggins in this thread has just been complaints about him without a point. Cool is saying if you aren't going to have the guts to say you don't think Wiggins is going to be very good based on his play to this point, then stop the extensive complaining conversations that don't have a point. If you don't think the way he is playing now is an indicator of who he is going to be in the future, you are complaining about nothing and it is annoying because we are stuck here trying to keep some optimism on this board during a bad season and we have people being negative calling themselves "realists" just posting negative crap when they believe it to only be a temporary situation themselves. If you think he won't be a star then say it and we can have a useful debate. Just dumping on a guy because of the way he is playing now when you don't think it is an indicator for his career is just bringing the board down into your pointless arguments. Essentially we don't understand your motivations for talking down a player just for the sake of talking them down when you don't have a point besides just wanting to post about it. It brings the whole board down into a black hole of stupid arguments such as what this thread has become.

I pretty much agree this whole thread has been a giant waste of time. I'm glad there is a game on tonight...we really need something else to talk about - lol.

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:I think what I'm having trouble with in this discussion is in trying to figure out what really is the point being made? We have a segment telling us how Drew is struggling, and how his numbers don't compare well with other players who became stars. But they don't want to say definitively that this means he can't become a great player. I can say with confidence that we all watch the games, we all see most of the same things. We know when Drew or Zach have a bad stretch vs a good one. It's pretty apparent that neither are going to have a Kevin Durant rookie year.

The question is so what?

None of this has changed my opinion that Drew is going to be an all star player in this league, and I'm not shy about telling you so. But I don't think we were 15 games into the season before the downer brigade started to piss and moan about Drew's play and deficiencies. They come on here and ramble about things that everyone can plainly see. But they won't stick their neck out and tell us anything that we can't see. If you think that Drew's early offensive struggles are relative to his career path, tell me that. If you think he's too passive to ever become an alpha dog for a contending team, tell me that. But what I'm already tired of is you using the rest of the group as a sounding board for your incessant negative replaying of the season so far. We're all frustrated as TWolve fans. Of course we're anxious about the development of our young players. It's really all that matters at this point. But it's all out there for us to see.

If you want to be compelling instead of just complaining, tell me what it means in your opinion. And don't hide behind some caveat or disclaimer.

Thank you Cool for being the board arbiter for what and what cannot be discussed here.

Just because people don't agree with you... doesn't mean there's any reason to dismiss what they're saying. You see the same guys do it repeatedly on here. And it's usually simply because somebody doesn't see the same things with the same perpetually rosy glasses.

It has nothing to do with not agreeing with people. Everything about Wiggins in this thread has just been complaints about him without a point. Cool is saying if you aren't going to have the guts to say you don't think Wiggins is going to be very good based on his play to this point, then stop the extensive complaining conversations that don't have a point. If you don't think the way he is playing now is an indicator of who he is going to be in the future, you are complaining about nothing and it is annoying because we are stuck here trying to keep some optimism on this board during a bad season and we have people being negative calling themselves "realists" just posting negative crap when they believe it to only be a temporary situation themselves. If you think he won't be a star then say it and we can have a useful debate. Just dumping on a guy because of the way he is playing now when you don't think it is an indicator for his career is just bringing the board down into your pointless arguments. Essentially we don't understand your motivations for talking down a player just for the sake of talking them down when you don't have a point besides just wanting to post about it. It brings the whole board down into a black hole of stupid arguments such as what this thread has become.

Nobody is talking him down. They're simply saying he's playing poorly right now. And that there's no 100% guarantee that he'll be a star or a superstar. There's nothing tangible to indicate he'll be a star... even though we all hope he does. But there is tangible evidence to suggest he's playing poorly right now.

I don't see what's wrong with this. EVERY other player is open to this criticism.

Then again, this is the same forum that attacked me in the past for using stats to show that the hubris shown toward Rashad McCants and Michael Beasley might be a bit premature. The same forum that ripped me for saying that I thought Westbrook has a bigger impact than Rubio. So maybe I shouldn't be surprised that anything less than glowing praise gets chastised.

Love the board for the most part. But the overly optimistic fan thinking can certainly take some discussions into murky territory sometimes. It's ok to rip players from your favorite team. Really, it is. It's no reflection on you as a person that the team is lousy. Personally, I refuse to only look at the positive side. It's doing a disservice for those that want to participate in honest basketball discussions. But maybe that's the norm for team-specific boards, I dunno.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:



Nobody is talking him down. They're simply saying he's playing poorly right now. And that there's no 100% guarantee that he'll be a star or a superstar. There's nothing tangible to indicate he'll be a star... even though we all hope he does. But there is tangible evidence to suggest he's playing poorly right now.

I don't see what's wrong with this. EVERY other player is open to this criticism.

Then again, this is the same forum that attacked me in the past for using stats to show that the hubris shown toward Rashad McCants and Michael Beasley might be a bit premature. The same forum that ripped me for saying that I thought Westbrook has a bigger impact than Rubio. So maybe I shouldn't be surprised that anything less than glowing praise gets chastised.

The title of this thread is "Wiggins is a huge disappointment". And the points that have been made are exactly the same points that have been made about him since he has been scouted. If these issues were clearly known, then how can anyone be disappointed? Unless they thought Wiggins would magically transcend the work of professional scouts as a 19 year old. If someone was offering a new observation that hasn't been repeated since he was a freshman at Kansas, then this thread would make sense. Instead we have a bunch of amateur scouts coming to the same conclusions through 26 games that pros have been saying about Wiggins and acting like it is some sort of revelation that should be rehashed after every time his well known weaknesses manifest themselves. Wiggins is far from the disappointment of this season. The optimism is already being combated by our awesome record.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:I think what I'm having trouble with in this discussion is in trying to figure out what really is the point being made? We have a segment telling us how Drew is struggling, and how his numbers don't compare well with other players who became stars. But they don't want to say definitively that this means he can't become a great player. I can say with confidence that we all watch the games, we all see most of the same things. We know when Drew or Zach have a bad stretch vs a good one. It's pretty apparent that neither are going to have a Kevin Durant rookie year.

The question is so what?

None of this has changed my opinion that Drew is going to be an all star player in this league, and I'm not shy about telling you so. But I don't think we were 15 games into the season before the downer brigade started to piss and moan about Drew's play and deficiencies. They come on here and ramble about things that everyone can plainly see. But they won't stick their neck out and tell us anything that we can't see. If you think that Drew's early offensive struggles are relative to his career path, tell me that. If you think he's too passive to ever become an alpha dog for a contending team, tell me that. But what I'm already tired of is you using the rest of the group as a sounding board for your incessant negative replaying of the season so far. We're all frustrated as TWolve fans. Of course we're anxious about the development of our young players. It's really all that matters at this point. But it's all out there for us to see.

If you want to be compelling instead of just complaining, tell me what it means in your opinion. And don't hide behind some caveat or disclaimer.

Thank you Cool for being the board arbiter for what and what cannot be discussed here.

Just because people don't agree with you... doesn't mean there's any reason to dismiss what they're saying. You see the same guys do it repeatedly on here. And it's usually simply because somebody doesn't see the same things with the same perpetually rosy glasses.

It has nothing to do with not agreeing with people. Everything about Wiggins in this thread has just been complaints about him without a point. Cool is saying if you aren't going to have the guts to say you don't think Wiggins is going to be very good based on his play to this point, then stop the extensive complaining conversations that don't have a point. If you don't think the way he is playing now is an indicator of who he is going to be in the future, you are complaining about nothing and it is annoying because we are stuck here trying to keep some optimism on this board during a bad season and we have people being negative calling themselves "realists" just posting negative crap when they believe it to only be a temporary situation themselves. If you think he won't be a star then say it and we can have a useful debate. Just dumping on a guy because of the way he is playing now when you don't think it is an indicator for his career is just bringing the board down into your pointless arguments. Essentially we don't understand your motivations for talking down a player just for the sake of talking them down when you don't have a point besides just wanting to post about it. It brings the whole board down into a black hole of stupid arguments such as what this thread has become.

Nobody is talking him down. They're simply saying he's playing poorly right now. And that there's no 100% guarantee that he'll be a star or a superstar. There's nothing tangible to indicate he'll be a star... even though we all hope he does. But there is tangible evidence to suggest he's playing poorly right now.

I don't see what's wrong with this. EVERY other player is open to this criticism.

Then again, this is the same forum that attacked me in the past for using stats to show that the hubris shown toward Rashad McCants and Michael Beasley might be a bit premature. The same forum that ripped me for saying that I thought Westbrook has a bigger impact than Rubio. So maybe I shouldn't be surprised that anything less than glowing praise gets chastised.

Please point out our appraisals of how good he is currently. Oh wait...there are non because we all know he isn't playing well right now. The difference is a lot of us don't care because we don't see it as having any impact on his future performance. You aren't stating he is going to miss our expectations of him, rather just that it is becoming a more likely scenario than our opinions that he will be an All-Star level player. How can 26 games be a sample size worthy of indicating any level of future performance? Let alone suggest it is enough to say he is now more likely to not be a star. If he plays 10 years in the league, you are suggesting his future performance is more likely to go one way over another based on 3% of the available data. That's why we don't care right now how he plays. It is statistically insignificant.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:I think what I'm having trouble with in this discussion is in trying to figure out what really is the point being made? We have a segment telling us how Drew is struggling, and how his numbers don't compare well with other players who became stars. But they don't want to say definitively that this means he can't become a great player. I can say with confidence that we all watch the games, we all see most of the same things. We know when Drew or Zach have a bad stretch vs a good one. It's pretty apparent that neither are going to have a Kevin Durant rookie year.

The question is so what?

None of this has changed my opinion that Drew is going to be an all star player in this league, and I'm not shy about telling you so. But I don't think we were 15 games into the season before the downer brigade started to piss and moan about Drew's play and deficiencies. They come on here and ramble about things that everyone can plainly see. But they won't stick their neck out and tell us anything that we can't see. If you think that Drew's early offensive struggles are relative to his career path, tell me that. If you think he's too passive to ever become an alpha dog for a contending team, tell me that. But what I'm already tired of is you using the rest of the group as a sounding board for your incessant negative replaying of the season so far. We're all frustrated as TWolve fans. Of course we're anxious about the development of our young players. It's really all that matters at this point. But it's all out there for us to see.

If you want to be compelling instead of just complaining, tell me what it means in your opinion. And don't hide behind some caveat or disclaimer.

Thank you Cool for being the board arbiter for what and what cannot be discussed here.

Just because people don't agree with you... doesn't mean there's any reason to dismiss what they're saying. You see the same guys do it repeatedly on here. And it's usually simply because somebody doesn't see the same things with the same perpetually rosy glasses.

It's not that I disagree with you, I'm just asking that you actually say something with conviction.

Seems like you're trying to bait people into saying stuff they've already said repeatedly.

"Wiggins isn't playing very well. Hopefully, he improves. It's too early and foolish to make any career projections for him."

Been said many times, many ways... some people used specific examples. Some people provided articles. Some people provided stats. I don't know what more you want.

And to my point, really isn't saying anything.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:I think what I'm having trouble with in this discussion is in trying to figure out what really is the point being made? We have a segment telling us how Drew is struggling, and how his numbers don't compare well with other players who became stars. But they don't want to say definitively that this means he can't become a great player. I can say with confidence that we all watch the games, we all see most of the same things. We know when Drew or Zach have a bad stretch vs a good one. It's pretty apparent that neither are going to have a Kevin Durant rookie year.

The question is so what?

None of this has changed my opinion that Drew is going to be an all star player in this league, and I'm not shy about telling you so. But I don't think we were 15 games into the season before the downer brigade started to piss and moan about Drew's play and deficiencies. They come on here and ramble about things that everyone can plainly see. But they won't stick their neck out and tell us anything that we can't see. If you think that Drew's early offensive struggles are relative to his career path, tell me that. If you think he's too passive to ever become an alpha dog for a contending team, tell me that. But what I'm already tired of is you using the rest of the group as a sounding board for your incessant negative replaying of the season so far. We're all frustrated as TWolve fans. Of course we're anxious about the development of our young players. It's really all that matters at this point. But it's all out there for us to see.

If you want to be compelling instead of just complaining, tell me what it means in your opinion. And don't hide behind some caveat or disclaimer.

Well said Cool!

thedoper wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:



Nobody is talking him down. They're simply saying he's playing poorly right now. And that there's no 100% guarantee that he'll be a star or a superstar. There's nothing tangible to indicate he'll be a star... even though we all hope he does. But there is tangible evidence to suggest he's playing poorly right now.

I don't see what's wrong with this. EVERY other player is open to this criticism.

Then again, this is the same forum that attacked me in the past for using stats to show that the hubris shown toward Rashad McCants and Michael Beasley might be a bit premature. The same forum that ripped me for saying that I thought Westbrook has a bigger impact than Rubio. So maybe I shouldn't be surprised that anything less than glowing praise gets chastised.

The title of this thread is "Wiggins is a huge disappointment". And the points that have been made are exactly the same points that have been made about him since he has been scouted. If these issues were clearly known, then how can anyone be disappointed? Unless they thought Wiggins would magically transcend the work of professional scouts as a 19 year old. If someone was offering a new observation that hasn't been repeated since he was a freshman at Kansas, then this thread would make sense. Instead we have a bunch of amateur scouts coming to the same conclusions through 26 games that pros have been saying about Wiggins and acting like it is some sort of revelation that should be rehashed after every time his well known weaknesses manifest themselves. Wiggins is far from the disappointment of this season. The optimism is already being combated by our awesome record.

The beauty of basketball is that it includes stats. And the eye test. And chemistry. And creativity. One factor doesn't override the others.

So yes... the scouts indicated that Wiggins was raw and athletic and needed work on his handle.
Now, we're using tangible stats and the eye test to see how that actually translates into real life. Into real basketball situations.

For example, Wiggins' true shooting percentage is 295th out of 322 qualified players. That adds something tangible to a draft blurb like "Too often settled for long range shots and did not venture out of his comfort zone enough, still has many things to learn in terms of creating mid range shots and counter moves." And it might even reflect his lack of a solid handle to get better looks.

Or, we can point out (as others have) that Wiggins isn't using his one skill everybody knows he has to its full advantage: his athleticism. He has only 13 dunks. That would indicate his athleticism isn't leading to easy opportunities.

Draft reports tell us Wiggins will be a great player. The stats don't support it yet. The eye test reveals a bit of both. The rest is up for debate (or not) depending who you ask. But to say that the first 26 games is irrelevant just because the stats don't support your projection? Don't know if I agree with that.

It doesn't guarantee he'll be a bust. But it definitely offers up some tangible reasons why over-the-top HOF comparisons might be a bit optimistic right now.

So wait, we can't talk about the development of our players until they are CLEARLY at their peak? Folks were talking about Rubio years prior to even being drafted (heck, after like 4 years, it seems we are still having the same discussions about him). Everyone on here hypothesizes about virtually every college player prior to every draft. Cool and Kahns....are you saying you don't do this? If so...as you say....what's the point? They are CLEARLY going to be different players 3-4 years down the road....good or bad. You absolutely CAN'T have it both ways.

All we have right now is 1 year of college and 20+ NBA games to hypothesize about Wiggins. While I won't say that he will never be good, I will definitively tell you that I haven't been impressed. What is it about his game that excites you? His best attribute by far is his athleticism. The problem I see with Wiggins, is that his basketball skills aren't nearly as seductive as his ability to jump over a building. A supreme athlete does not a basketball player make! Nothing about Wiggins was elite coming out of Kansas....with the exception of his athleticism. This is the issue, IMO, when evaluating his potential long-term impact vs a guy like Anthony Davis (let's use him as a comparison as he has been talked about a lot). While Davis is also an elite athlete, more important than that was that he was already an elite defender coming out of Kentucky, and he showed that immediately in the NBA. Wiggins, on the other hand, while he may be "OK" (personally, I think even OK is generous), he gets a pass from the fanbase on this based on what? I will tell you....his potential to become elite based on his physical tools. Does he get a pass because he plays on a bad team? How has Anthony Davis's team been?

While I am not a huge Wiggins guy, I too (like everyone) want him desperately to succeed. As with Rubio before him, these guys have to hit for us to go anywhere. But that doesn't change the fact that Wiggins own play is bringing about these concerns.