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Re: Klay has been made available
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:18 pm
by thedoper
longstrangetrip wrote:Sometimes I think rabid fans, like us, tend to ignore the other team's position when we evaluate potential deals, and that tends to cloud our thinking. In the Love case, I think it leads to overvaluing the potential return we will get in a deal. I don't think we are giving enough weight to the risk to a potential trading partner of Love leaving a year after they give up significant assets in a deal. That's the kind of event that gets a GM fired, and GMs have a tendency to not want to get fired.
Let's evaluate the Love deal as if we were on the other side. Let's say we were the buyer for an elite player like Carmelo Anthony, who had one year left on his deal. Let's assume we had the top pick in the draft, and the Knicks proposed this deal:
Minnesota: Carmelo Anthony
Knicks: Kevin Martin, Pek, #1 pick
While it would be exciting to add a draw like Anthony, do you think Flip would make this deal...knowing the risk that Melo could walk in a year? Would you want Flip to make this deal? Fans might say "Oh, this deal is going to make us so good, there's no way Melo leaves after a year", but Flip (or any smart GM) needs to look at it differently. So many things can happen, like key injuries or the difficulty in fitting a new player into a system, that can alter the expected outcome. Compare the Nets results last year to their expectations after bringing in so many good players.
I think the risk of Love bolting after one year is way too high for a GM to give too much up in a deal. I'm still hoping for what many of you guys think is a given (#1 from Cleveland, multiple picks and Olynyk from Boston,etc), but still very, very skeptical.
I like that Carmello deal and I would hope to god that Flip would make that deal if it were really a possibility. Carmello is exactly what we need and what a fun team.
Rubio
Bud
Melo
Love
Dieng
With Bazz off the bench.
This is a win now league you have seen it before with Boston and Miami that a big move can immediately change your franchise. These guys all want to be in the spotlight, the best way to do that is to be playing in June. Going deep in the playoffs is the best pitch you can make to a player (the Chris Paul deal). Which is why a deal for Love would be worth the risk for any team on the cusp of contending.
This is the point I have kept making in this process. Why are we always the bitch? We are looking at a rebuild if Love leaves. I just don't buy that we are going to be better via any of these trades save the Cleveland deal, but that will still be years before we reap the benefits of Wiggins. Why not flip the table and really go for it, just like Danny Ainge did with the Celtics. We just don't want to contend. Are we really thinking about Love leaving as our opportunity for the future? Just wait a few more years before we can sniff the playoffs again.
Re: Klay has been made available
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:18 pm
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
I know the point you were trying to make, LST, but I would do that Carmelo trade 10 times out of 10.
Re: Klay has been made available
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:33 pm
by worldK
Long
I know what your saying. That's why I keep saying I would do love for cavs number 1 even without waiters and Thompson in return. 1 of them would be nice but if cavs dont want to include them, il be fine with a combo of varejao gee and Bennett. That leaves cavs with waiters and Thompson still. They can get other assets for those two or keep them both. They will have enough talent with love and Irving and other attractive assets plus cap space and Rights to deng and hawes. They can build their team better with that. No need for them to trade away all their best assets for love.
For us, the price is the number 1 pick. We will be foolish to not do that deal because we can't get waiters or Thompson or both.
Re: Klay has been made available
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:40 pm
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
worldK wrote:Long
I know what your saying. That's why I keep saying I would do love for cavs number 1 even without waiters and Thompson in return. 1 of them would be nice but if cavs dont want to include them, il be fine with a combo of varejao gee and Bennett. That leaves cavs with waiters and Thompson still. They can get other assets for those two or keep them both. They will have enough talent with love and Irving and other attractive assets plus cap space and Rights to deng and hawes. They can build their team better with that. No need for them to trade away all their best assets for love.
For us, the price is the number 1 pick. We will be foolish to not do that deal because we can't get waiters or Thompson or both.
I might do that deal too, world. I like Thompson, but the more I read about Waiters, the more I worry about him. He had big problems getting along with Thompson and Irving, and we could be trading a bad teammate for another bad teammate. I'm encouraged by the reports of Bennett now in great shape, and I wonder if a deal built around Bennett and #1 might have more upside. I'm still skeptical the Cavs give up #1 for the possibility of just one year of Love...that would be way too risky for me if I were GM.
Re: Klay has been made available
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:33 pm
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
Does anyone think maybe the real cancer on the Cavs is Kyrie?
Re: Klay has been made available
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:11 pm
by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
Does it matter if the real cancer is Kyrie? If 2 guys can't get along and they happen to be in the same backcourt fighting for the same ball, the better player is always going to win. That team's future relies on Kyrie, not Waiters. You always choose the star in this league rather than take the "good" guy. Dwight was an a-hole in Orlando, but he was an a-hole who carried them to a finals appearance.
Re: Klay has been made available
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:54 pm
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
khans2k5 wrote:Does it matter if the real cancer is Kyrie? If 2 guys can't get along and they happen to be in the same backcourt fighting for the same ball, the better player is always going to win. That team's future relies on Kyrie, not Waiters. You always choose the star in this league rather than take the "good" guy. Dwight was an a-hole in Orlando, but he was an a-hole who carried them to a finals appearance.
Completely missed my point. The poster above me was talking about his concerns with Waiters ability to get along with Irving. I don't think Waiters is the only person to blame for those rumors about conflicts in the locker room, meaning Irving deserves his fair share. I think it'd be great for Waiters to get out of Cleveland.
Re: Klay has been made available
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:10 am
by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
Even if the blame was 100% Kyrie's fault, it still wouldn't matter. Assigning amount of blame doesn't matter when one guy is a star and the other is a role player. No matter the percentages, Kyrie is the guy and Waiters isn't. If Waiters can't get along with Irving, the Cavs are just going to tell him tough luck because in the grander scheme of things Waiters is expendable and Kyrie isn't. That was my point. Kyrie could be the cancer and Waiters could be doing nothing wrong and it still wouldn't matter. There's no point trying to assign blame to one guy or another or even both because Kyrie is a star and stars are treated like royalty in this league no matter how big of jerks they are to the media, organization or teammates.
Re: Klay has been made available
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:42 am
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
Again, that wasn't my point. You can keep repeating yourself all you want, but what you're saying doesn't apply to what my point was.
Re: Klay has been made available
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:36 am
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
LA Times reporting the Lakers in talks to acquire Klay in the Love trade. They'd send 7 to us.
How about no.
How about we send them Lee for 7 and keep Klay.