khans2k5 wrote:I guess it's back to Ben Simmons please be good. While he's not a shooter, he's a primary ball handler who makes everyone around him better which would be nice to have in the frontcourt. We need Wiggins and Zach in the corners more often to hit more spot up 3's. The offensive struggles pretty much come from having a primary ball handler scoring under 10pts per game. You can cite whatever advanced stats you want. It's a problem because guys like Zach and Wiggins have to create their own offense a lot more often instead of being able to post up on the 3pt line and benefit from someone else forcing defensive rotations that open them up for open spot up 3's. That corner 3 stat McPherson tweeted is damning to both our system and our players. We run the most inefficient offense in the league that is bailed out statistically by FT's.
I cringed just a little when I saw that, considering Simmions is a college freshman on a 4 - 4 team.
I know passing helps teammates. But beyond that, do we really know if he's helping his teammates that much? Maybe he's hogging the ball so much, whether that's passing or shooting, that it's actually hurting the team.
Sorry for quibbling a bit here with this one...
He's averaging 19/15/6/2.5/1.6 on 55/50/73 splits (he doesn't shoot many three's though so that stat I misleading). I don't know how much more one guy can do for a team at the college level. Here's an article about how hard the team is failing around him despite his best efforts and yes he makes everyone around him better. This team would be complete garbage without him. That's the price he's gonna pay though for going to a bad basketball school.
I'm a huge detractor of Wilt Chamberlain. I think he's arguably one of the most selfish players the game has ever seen. But, he was the best player on his team virtually every season.
He even led the league in assists! Obviously, he made his teammates better. Right?
Wait. Look closer. Wilt made it his season mission to lead the league in assists that season... one year after winning the NBA title. What happened? The team underachieved and Wilt blamed everybody... but himself. Now, I'm not claiming Simmons is a cancer like Wilt. Not at all.
But, LSU was a tournament team last season. And they've changed the way they play this season to take advantage of Simmons' skills. Smart move, right? He's excelling, but that doesn't mean it's what's best for everybody else. Is having the poor shooting PF handle the ball so much helping others get in the flow? Is the coach just terrible? All the other players got lazy overnight? I don't know. But something is amiss. Those guys are playing worse... and it might not have to do with Simmons at all.
BUT... my point is that without evidence that he's making teammates better... why suggest he is?
[Note: I always cringed when I read those Rubio makes players better too. The team is better... because he's inherently better than his backups. But how is he making his teammates better? And don't most good PGs do those things that make teammates better? For example, Russell Westbrook is a great guard, but very much unlike Rubio... was he making teammates worse? Could he actually, gulp... be making his teammates even better than Rubio does?]
Why? Because multiple draft analysts have said it and they've scouted him for a few years now. What stat says "makes teammates better"? There isn't one. You actually have to watch the guy play to see it and that's what analysts have been doing and they say he's playing unselfish basketball that can elevate the play of the guys around him. The fact that you're questioning whether or not he's a selfish player like Wilt tells me you've done very little research on Simmons because I've heard nothing but the opposite.
khans2k5 wrote:I guess it's back to Ben Simmons please be good. While he's not a shooter, he's a primary ball handler who makes everyone around him better which would be nice to have in the frontcourt. We need Wiggins and Zach in the corners more often to hit more spot up 3's. The offensive struggles pretty much come from having a primary ball handler scoring under 10pts per game. You can cite whatever advanced stats you want. It's a problem because guys like Zach and Wiggins have to create their own offense a lot more often instead of being able to post up on the 3pt line and benefit from someone else forcing defensive rotations that open them up for open spot up 3's. That corner 3 stat McPherson tweeted is damning to both our system and our players. We run the most inefficient offense in the league that is bailed out statistically by FT's.
I cringed just a little when I saw that, considering Simmions is a college freshman on a 4 - 4 team.
I know passing helps teammates. But beyond that, do we really know if he's helping his teammates that much? Maybe he's hogging the ball so much, whether that's passing or shooting, that it's actually hurting the team.
Sorry for quibbling a bit here with this one...
He's averaging 19/15/6/2.5/1.6 on 55/50/73 splits (he doesn't shoot many three's though so that stat I misleading). I don't know how much more one guy can do for a team at the college level. Here's an article about how hard the team is failing around him despite his best efforts and yes he makes everyone around him better. This team would be complete garbage without him. That's the price he's gonna pay though for going to a bad basketball school.
I'm a huge detractor of Wilt Chamberlain. I think he's arguably one of the most selfish players the game has ever seen. But, he was the best player on his team virtually every season.
He even led the league in assists! Obviously, he made his teammates better. Right?
Wait. Look closer. Wilt made it his season mission to lead the league in assists that season... one year after winning the NBA title. What happened? The team underachieved and Wilt blamed everybody... but himself. Now, I'm not claiming Simmons is a cancer like Wilt. Not at all.
But, LSU was a tournament team last season. And they've changed the way they play this season to take advantage of Simmons' skills. Smart move, right? He's excelling, but that doesn't mean it's what's best for everybody else. Is having the poor shooting PF handle the ball so much helping others get in the flow? Is the coach just terrible? All the other players got lazy overnight? I don't know. But something is amiss. Those guys are playing worse... and it might not have to do with Simmons at all.
BUT... my point is that without evidence that he's making teammates better... why suggest he is?
[Note: I always cringed when I read those Rubio makes players better too. The team is better... because he's inherently better than his backups. But how is he making his teammates better? And don't most good PGs do those things that make teammates better? For example, Russell Westbrook is a great guard, but very much unlike Rubio... was he making teammates worse? Could he actually, gulp... be making his teammates even better than Rubio does?]
Why? Because multiple draft analysts have said it and they've scouted him for a few years now. What stat says "makes teammates better"? There isn't one. You actually have to watch the guy play to see it and that's what analysts have been doing and they say he's playing unselfish basketball that can elevate the play of the guys around him. The fact that you're questioning whether or not he's a selfish player like Wilt tells me you've done very little research on Simmons because I've heard nothing but the opposite.
I apologize for not being clear... although "Now, I'm not claiming Simmons is a cancer like Wilt. Not at all." sure seems to discount your take that I think Simmons is selfish like Wilt.
I used Wilt as an example about how difficult it is to judge or provide proof that "he makes teammates better."
You claimed he makes teammates better. My claim is simply this... How do we know if that's true if the only evidence we have is that his teammates are playing worse?
Again, I'm not saying Simmons is selfish. Or to blame. I'm not even arguing against him making his teammates better. I simply cringe a bit when I see "he makes teammates better" arguments because it's such an esoteric or abstract thing.
khans2k5 wrote:I guess it's back to Ben Simmons please be good. While he's not a shooter, he's a primary ball handler who makes everyone around him better which would be nice to have in the frontcourt. We need Wiggins and Zach in the corners more often to hit more spot up 3's. The offensive struggles pretty much come from having a primary ball handler scoring under 10pts per game. You can cite whatever advanced stats you want. It's a problem because guys like Zach and Wiggins have to create their own offense a lot more often instead of being able to post up on the 3pt line and benefit from someone else forcing defensive rotations that open them up for open spot up 3's. That corner 3 stat McPherson tweeted is damning to both our system and our players. We run the most inefficient offense in the league that is bailed out statistically by FT's.
I cringed just a little when I saw that, considering Simmions is a college freshman on a 4 - 4 team.
I know passing helps teammates. But beyond that, do we really know if he's helping his teammates that much? Maybe he's hogging the ball so much, whether that's passing or shooting, that it's actually hurting the team.
Sorry for quibbling a bit here with this one...
He's averaging 19/15/6/2.5/1.6 on 55/50/73 splits (he doesn't shoot many three's though so that stat I misleading). I don't know how much more one guy can do for a team at the college level. Here's an article about how hard the team is failing around him despite his best efforts and yes he makes everyone around him better. This team would be complete garbage without him. That's the price he's gonna pay though for going to a bad basketball school.
I'm a huge detractor of Wilt Chamberlain. I think he's arguably one of the most selfish players the game has ever seen. But, he was the best player on his team virtually every season.
He even led the league in assists! Obviously, he made his teammates better. Right?
Wait. Look closer. Wilt made it his season mission to lead the league in assists that season... one year after winning the NBA title. What happened? The team underachieved and Wilt blamed everybody... but himself. Now, I'm not claiming Simmons is a cancer like Wilt. Not at all.
But, LSU was a tournament team last season. And they've changed the way they play this season to take advantage of Simmons' skills. Smart move, right? He's excelling, but that doesn't mean it's what's best for everybody else. Is having the poor shooting PF handle the ball so much helping others get in the flow? Is the coach just terrible? All the other players got lazy overnight? I don't know. But something is amiss. Those guys are playing worse... and it might not have to do with Simmons at all.
BUT... my point is that without evidence that he's making teammates better... why suggest he is?
[Note: I always cringed when I read those Rubio makes players better too. The team is better... because he's inherently better than his backups. But how is he making his teammates better? And don't most good PGs do those things that make teammates better? For example, Russell Westbrook is a great guard, but very much unlike Rubio... was he making teammates worse? Could he actually, gulp... be making his teammates even better than Rubio does?]
Why? Because multiple draft analysts have said it and they've scouted him for a few years now. What stat says "makes teammates better"? There isn't one. You actually have to watch the guy play to see it and that's what analysts have been doing and they say he's playing unselfish basketball that can elevate the play of the guys around him. The fact that you're questioning whether or not he's a selfish player like Wilt tells me you've done very little research on Simmons because I've heard nothing but the opposite.
I apologize for not being clear... although "Now, I'm not claiming Simmons is a cancer like Wilt. Not at all." sure seems to discount your take that I think Simmons is selfish like Wilt.
I used Wilt as an example about how difficult it is to judge or provide proof that "he makes teammates better."
You claimed he makes teammates better. My claim is simply this... How do we know if that's true if the only evidence we have is that his teammates are playing worse?
Again, I'm not saying Simmons is selfish. Or to blame. I'm not even arguing against him making his teammates better. I simply cringe a bit when I see "he makes teammates better" arguments because it's such an esoteric or abstract thing.
Losing their two best players to the NBA and only gaining 1 back in Simmons isn't a good enough reason for their team to be doing worse this year? His numbers are good, but they aren't worth 2 NBA players at the college level. It's not like they added him to everything they had last year and they're doing worse. They lost legit pieces and were missing one of their top scorers the first several games this year as well.
khans2k5 wrote:I guess it's back to Ben Simmons please be good. While he's not a shooter, he's a primary ball handler who makes everyone around him better which would be nice to have in the frontcourt. We need Wiggins and Zach in the corners more often to hit more spot up 3's. The offensive struggles pretty much come from having a primary ball handler scoring under 10pts per game. You can cite whatever advanced stats you want. It's a problem because guys like Zach and Wiggins have to create their own offense a lot more often instead of being able to post up on the 3pt line and benefit from someone else forcing defensive rotations that open them up for open spot up 3's. That corner 3 stat McPherson tweeted is damning to both our system and our players. We run the most inefficient offense in the league that is bailed out statistically by FT's.
I cringed just a little when I saw that, considering Simmions is a college freshman on a 4 - 4 team.
I know passing helps teammates. But beyond that, do we really know if he's helping his teammates that much? Maybe he's hogging the ball so much, whether that's passing or shooting, that it's actually hurting the team.
Sorry for quibbling a bit here with this one...
He's averaging 19/15/6/2.5/1.6 on 55/50/73 splits (he doesn't shoot many three's though so that stat I misleading). I don't know how much more one guy can do for a team at the college level. Here's an article about how hard the team is failing around him despite his best efforts and yes he makes everyone around him better. This team would be complete garbage without him. That's the price he's gonna pay though for going to a bad basketball school.
I'm a huge detractor of Wilt Chamberlain. I think he's arguably one of the most selfish players the game has ever seen. But, he was the best player on his team virtually every season.
He even led the league in assists! Obviously, he made his teammates better. Right?
Wait. Look closer. Wilt made it his season mission to lead the league in assists that season... one year after winning the NBA title. What happened? The team underachieved and Wilt blamed everybody... but himself. Now, I'm not claiming Simmons is a cancer like Wilt. Not at all.
But, LSU was a tournament team last season. And they've changed the way they play this season to take advantage of Simmons' skills. Smart move, right? He's excelling, but that doesn't mean it's what's best for everybody else. Is having the poor shooting PF handle the ball so much helping others get in the flow? Is the coach just terrible? All the other players got lazy overnight? I don't know. But something is amiss. Those guys are playing worse... and it might not have to do with Simmons at all.
BUT... my point is that without evidence that he's making teammates better... why suggest he is?
[Note: I always cringed when I read those Rubio makes players better too. The team is better... because he's inherently better than his backups. But how is he making his teammates better? And don't most good PGs do those things that make teammates better? For example, Russell Westbrook is a great guard, but very much unlike Rubio... was he making teammates worse? Could he actually, gulp... be making his teammates even better than Rubio does?]
Why? Because multiple draft analysts have said it and they've scouted him for a few years now. What stat says "makes teammates better"? There isn't one. You actually have to watch the guy play to see it and that's what analysts have been doing and they say he's playing unselfish basketball that can elevate the play of the guys around him. The fact that you're questioning whether or not he's a selfish player like Wilt tells me you've done very little research on Simmons because I've heard nothing but the opposite.
I apologize for not being clear... although "Now, I'm not claiming Simmons is a cancer like Wilt. Not at all." sure seems to discount your take that I think Simmons is selfish like Wilt.
I used Wilt as an example about how difficult it is to judge or provide proof that "he makes teammates better."
You claimed he makes teammates better. My claim is simply this... How do we know if that's true if the only evidence we have is that his teammates are playing worse?
Again, I'm not saying Simmons is selfish. Or to blame. I'm not even arguing against him making his teammates better. I simply cringe a bit when I see "he makes teammates better" arguments because it's such an esoteric or abstract thing.
Losing their two best players to the NBA and only gaining 1 back in Simmons isn't a good enough reason for their team to be doing worse this year? His numbers are good, but they aren't worth 2 NBA players at the college level. It's not like they added him to everything they had last year and they're doing worse. They lost legit pieces and were missing one of their top scorers the first several games this year as well.
Fair enough. I won't argue any of that.
Still don't see how "him making teammates better" is gospel though. It's simply too arbitrary. That's my point.
