Minnesota Sports Forum

KG4Ever wrote:

That's not how I view things at all. I guess I don't think just being in the playoffs and getting your a$$es kicked is any better than missing the playoffs. The latter gets you a better draft pick and better odds of finding the next cornerstone. I guess if playoffs is all you aspire to, what's the point? More than half the teams make it. In fact, its kind of exciting in a perverse way to keep the streak going longer than artificially boosting your win total by getting a rent-a-Jimmy and signing-old-man-Taj.

More than half the teams make the playoffs. For 13 straight years this team wasn't one of them. That's embarrassing. If we didn't make the playoffs this year, we wouldn't know Karl Towns was a softy in it. Now they can work on that. Now they know what they need to do to make it back. Now, some of the players won't accept less than a playoff appearance because they've been there and wanna make it right. Losing in the first round happens to pretty much everyone. We can't bypass the growing pains for this team. This franchise has an awful reputation. When they got Jimmy, that was one of a handful of moves in franchise history that showed they wanted to be taken seriously for once.

WildWolf2813 wrote:

KG4Ever wrote:

That's not how I view things at all. I guess I don't think just being in the playoffs and getting your a$$es kicked is any better than missing the playoffs. The latter gets you a better draft pick and better odds of finding the next cornerstone. I guess if playoffs is all you aspire to, what's the point? More than half the teams make it. In fact, its kind of exciting in a perverse way to keep the streak going longer than artificially boosting your win total by getting a rent-a-Jimmy and signing-old-man-Taj.

More than half the teams make the playoffs. For 13 straight years this team wasn't one of them. That's embarrassing. If we didn't make the playoffs this year, we wouldn't know Karl Towns was a softy in it. Now they can work on that. Now they know what they need to do to make it back. Now, some of the players won't accept less than a playoff appearance because they've been there and wanna make it right. Losing in the first round happens to pretty much everyone. We can't bypass the growing pains for this team. This franchise has an awful reputation. When they got Jimmy, that was one of a handful of moves in franchise history that showed they wanted to be taken seriously for once.

Yep, the trade in the end did not work but in theory it was a good trade. Butler a top 15 player Towns could be a Top 5 player. If you have a chance to acquire 2 top 15 players in the league you have to go with it. Especially when the pieces who you gave up showed nothing of substance they can even come close to that level.

WildWolf2813 wrote:

KG4Ever wrote:

That's not how I view things at all. I guess I don't think just being in the playoffs and getting your a$$es kicked is any better than missing the playoffs. The latter gets you a better draft pick and better odds of finding the next cornerstone. I guess if playoffs is all you aspire to, what's the point? More than half the teams make it. In fact, its kind of exciting in a perverse way to keep the streak going longer than artificially boosting your win total by getting a rent-a-Jimmy and signing-old-man-Taj.

More than half the teams make the playoffs. For 13 straight years this team wasn't one of them. That's embarrassing. If we didn't make the playoffs this year, we wouldn't know Karl Towns was a softy in it. Now they can work on that. Now they know what they need to do to make it back. Now, some of the players won't accept less than a playoff appearance because they've been there and wanna make it right. Losing in the first round happens to pretty much everyone. We can't bypass the growing pains for this team. This franchise has an awful reputation. When they got Jimmy, that was one of a handful of moves in franchise history that showed they wanted to be taken seriously for once.

I am not anti-playoffs, but I wanted the Wolves to get their organically. Build a young core through the draft and find a coach who can develop them. Trying to short-cut the process by trading away young talent for a veteran like Jimmy was the exact wrong thing to do in my opinion.

KG4Ever wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:

KG4Ever wrote:

That's not how I view things at all. I guess I don't think just being in the playoffs and getting your a$$es kicked is any better than missing the playoffs. The latter gets you a better draft pick and better odds of finding the next cornerstone. I guess if playoffs is all you aspire to, what's the point? More than half the teams make it. In fact, its kind of exciting in a perverse way to keep the streak going longer than artificially boosting your win total by getting a rent-a-Jimmy and signing-old-man-Taj.

More than half the teams make the playoffs. For 13 straight years this team wasn't one of them. That's embarrassing. If we didn't make the playoffs this year, we wouldn't know Karl Towns was a softy in it. Now they can work on that. Now they know what they need to do to make it back. Now, some of the players won't accept less than a playoff appearance because they've been there and wanna make it right. Losing in the first round happens to pretty much everyone. We can't bypass the growing pains for this team. This franchise has an awful reputation. When they got Jimmy, that was one of a handful of moves in franchise history that showed they wanted to be taken seriously for once.

I am not anti-playoffs, but I wanted the Wolves to get their organically. Build a young core through the draft and find a coach who can develop them. Trying to short-cut the process by trading away young talent for a veteran like Jimmy was the exact wrong thing to do in my opinion.

That's fine to have that opinion as an individual fan, but there are a lot of stakeholders that simply were done being patient and Taylor couldn't indulge in a Sam Hinkie like "process". The Wolves ultimately are a business and Thibs was brought in with a mandate to win. He couldn't do it with the young guys in Year 1, so he went and got Butler and Gibson. Voila! We win 47 games and make the playoffs.

I feel like the purists completely ignore the benefits of actually going 30-11 at home last year. There are real business and fan benefits to doing that, even if the end result wasn't a deep playoff run. Also, our young guys actually got a taste of what it takes to be a top tier team after being dismantled by Houston. I think that was healthy for KAT, Tyus, and Wiggins versus trudging through another 30-win season.

Depending on how this Butler trade shakes out we will probably end up kinda doing what everyone wants this team to get but in a different order. If we kept the young guys we likely still miss the playoffs last season but maybe trend in the right direction and add a couple solid vets to...have a better chance at making the playoffs this year along with another top pick. It's worth remembering that if we made the playoffs this season in that scenario we would have no draft pick. im the current reality we got to the playoffs and then this season unless we get a sweet return on the Butler deal we probably miss the playoffs but that means another lottery pick and some replenished younger assets in the Butler deal and it all puts us in the playoff hunt the next season. We have no idea who is gonna coach this team (and run the front office) and quite frankly we don't really know if the people we could have hired 2 years ago would not be on the hot seat right now also...although probably in a less chaotic way (it's been pretty spectacular). Cool is feeling optimism and I think there is a real chance we can get this thing going back in the right direction. It's worth mentioning that regardless of how we wanted or want this thing to have been built etc we are all hoping for our favorite team to have success. We are all Timberwolves fans. Hopefully there is some good coming for us.

Q12543 wrote:

KG4Ever wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:

KG4Ever wrote:

That's not how I view things at all. I guess I don't think just being in the playoffs and getting your a$$es kicked is any better than missing the playoffs. The latter gets you a better draft pick and better odds of finding the next cornerstone. I guess if playoffs is all you aspire to, what's the point? More than half the teams make it. In fact, its kind of exciting in a perverse way to keep the streak going longer than artificially boosting your win total by getting a rent-a-Jimmy and signing-old-man-Taj.

More than half the teams make the playoffs. For 13 straight years this team wasn't one of them. That's embarrassing. If we didn't make the playoffs this year, we wouldn't know Karl Towns was a softy in it. Now they can work on that. Now they know what they need to do to make it back. Now, some of the players won't accept less than a playoff appearance because they've been there and wanna make it right. Losing in the first round happens to pretty much everyone. We can't bypass the growing pains for this team. This franchise has an awful reputation. When they got Jimmy, that was one of a handful of moves in franchise history that showed they wanted to be taken seriously for once.

I am not anti-playoffs, but I wanted the Wolves to get their organically. Build a young core through the draft and find a coach who can develop them. Trying to short-cut the process by trading away young talent for a veteran like Jimmy was the exact wrong thing to do in my opinion.

That's fine to have that opinion as an individual fan, but there are a lot of stakeholders that simply were done being patient and Taylor couldn't indulge in a Sam Hinkie like "process". The Wolves ultimately are a business and Thibs was brought in with a mandate to win. He couldn't do it with the young guys in Year 1, so he went and got Butler and Gibson. Voila! We win 47 games and make the playoffs.

I feel like the purists completely ignore the benefits of actually going 30-11 at home last year. There are real business and fan benefits to doing that, even if the end result wasn't a deep playoff run. Also, our young guys actually got a taste of what it takes to be a top tier team after being dismantled by Houston. I think that was healthy for KAT, Tyus, and Wiggins versus trudging through another 30-win season.

Last year was probably great for the casual basketball fan in Minnesota. I think it's more of a casual vs hardened Timberwolves fan thing, rather than a purist vs new wave fan thing. I don't judge anyone for their reasons for being a fan, but for me having a decent year doesn't feed the baby unless a clear path to the top is possible.

OK, here are a few of what I'd consider realistic deals the Wolves should pursue:

1. SIXERS DEAL
Sixers Get: Butler
Wolves Get: (a) Covington, (b) Muscala, (c) Bulls or Kings 2019 2nd rd pk, (c) Heat 2021 1st

Why Wolves would do this? Covington steps in right away as a very solid SF to replace Butler. He's still reasonably young at 27 years old without a lot of mileage on him so he'll still be in his prime a couple seasons from now when KAT, Wiggins and Tyus begin to enter their peak years. He also has a reasonable $10.5M per year contract and has 4 years left, so the Wolves can get full value for him as a player since he can't bolt any time soon. The Kings or Bulls 2nd round pick next years will likely be pretty high - in the 31-38 range and the Miami pick in two years will be unprotected at a time when the Heat could be pretty bad. Muscala would be salary filler and his $5 million would come off the books after this season, so it's also a good deal financially for the Wolves from a salary cap standpoint. I'd definitely try to work a deal to get Saric, but I don't consider it realistic so I'm not going to attempt to put one together in this post. I'll save it for my "moon shot" proposal post.

Why would the Sixers do this? Unlike the Wolves, who were a 30-win team when we traded for Butler, the Sixers were a top 3 seed in the East and advanced a playoff round with their young core. That puts them in a position where it actually makes sense for them to consider bringing in a top veteran who's still in his prime even as he approaches 30 years of age. In fact, their pursuit of K. Leonard shows they already have that in mind. This deal would allow them to keep their two core young stars, Simmons and Embiid, as well as their other highly talented young players, Saric and Fultz, and their 2018 first round pick, Zhaire Smith. They'd also be keeping all their own draft picks. So it would seem like a no-brained for the Sixers.

2. NETS DEAL
Nets Get: Butler
Wolves Get: (a) Carroll, (b) LeVert, (c) Musa, (d) Nuggets 2019 1st, (e) Knicks 2019 2nd rd pk

Why would the Wolves do this? The key benefits of this deal would be two solid draft picks and LeVert, a talented young wing who can handle the ball like a PG, which is a skill the Wolves need at the wing position given Andrew's weakness in that area. Getting Musa might be asking for too much, but another young wing with length would be nice renew the rebuilding process. The Knicks 2nd round pick should be a high one in the 31-38 range. The Nuggets pick is top 12 protected for 5 years before it converts to two second rounders, so the Wolves should get a 13-20 pick at some point. Carroll's value is mainly for salary match, but he could step right in and replace Butler in the starting lineup and help the Wolves stay reasonably competitive this season.

Why would the Nets to this? They get an allstar wing who has listed them as a team he'd resign with. He'd arrive wanting to be there. It would give their franchise instant credibility as they compete with the Knicks for the attention of NBA fans in that City. It could also help them attract a top free agent next summer when they can have a lot of cap space to sign another max player in addition to extending Butler. They'd still keep their most talented young player, Russell, as well. They'd also still have their own 2019 1st and 2nd round picks, so losing the Denver and Knick picks shouldn't be too big of a give for them.

3. CLIPPERS DEAL
Clippers get Butler & Patton
Wolves Get: (a) T. Harris, (b) Gilegeous-Alexander, (c) Clips 2021 1st rd pk-lottery protected

Why would the Wolves do this? Harris is a very good wing who can step in as the Wolves starting SF in place of Butler. Having just turned 26, he fits much better than Butler with our young core. Unlike Wiggins, he's an excellent rebounder and pretty good 3-point shooter, so he does some things Wiggins doesn't, although he's not nearly as talented as Wiggins overall. The downside is that he only has 1 yr. left on his contract, so the Wolves could lose him to free-agency next summer or be faced with a contract demand too steep for the Wolves given their other financial commitments and desire to avoid the luxury tax. For me the key would be Gilegeous-Alexander. He's a PG with unusual length and lots of skills - very intriguing. I'm not sure the Clippers would also give up their 2021 pick, but it would be nice icing for the Wolves.

Why would the Clippers do this? They know plugging Butler in with Lou Williams, Beverley makes them a competitive team that could possibly challenge for the 8th seed. Since they've traded their 2019 1st round pick, they get nothing from tanking this season. Moreover, they're one of the three teams Butler said he'd re-sign with and the Clippers are actually his first choice. Butler's presence would likely help them land a top free agent next summer when they should have cap room to sign another max player.

lipoli390 wrote:OK, here are a few of what I'd consider realistic deals the Wolves should pursue:

1. SIXERS DEAL
Sixers Get: Butler
Wolves Get: (a) Covington, (b) Muscala, (c) Bulls or Kings 2019 2nd rd pk, (c) Heat 2021 1st

Why Wolves would do this? Covington steps in right away as a very solid SF to replace Butler. He's still reasonably young at 27 years old without a lot of mileage on him so he'll still be in his prime a couple seasons from now when KAT, Wiggins and Tyus begin to enter their peak years. He also has a reasonable $10.5M per year contract and has 4 years left, so the Wolves can get full value for him as a player since he can't bolt any time soon. The Kings or Bulls 2nd round pick next years will likely be pretty high - in the 31-38 range and the Miami pick in two years will be unprotected at a time when the Heat could be pretty bad. Muscala would be salary filler and his $5 million would come off the books after this season, so it's also a good deal financially for the Wolves from a salary cap standpoint. I'd definitely try to work a deal to get Saric, but I don't consider it realistic so I'm not going to attempt to put one together in this post. I'll save it for my "moon shot" proposal post.

Why would the Sixers do this? Unlike the Wolves, who were a 30-win team when we traded for Butler, the Sixers were a top 3 seed in the East and advanced a playoff round with their young core. That puts them in a position where it actually makes sense for them to consider bringing in a top veteran who's still in his prime even as he approaches 30 years of age. In fact, their pursuit of K. Leonard shows they already have that in mind. This deal would allow them to keep their two core young stars, Simmons and Embiid, as well as their other highly talented young players, Saric and Fultz, and their 2018 first round pick, Zhaire Smith. They'd also be keeping all their own draft picks. So it would seem like a no-brained for the Sixers.

2. NETS DEAL
Nets Get: Butler
Wolves Get: (a) Carroll, (b) LeVert, (c) Musa, (d) Nuggets 2019 1st, (e) Knicks 2019 2nd rd pk

Why would the Wolves do this? The key benefits of this deal would be two solid draft picks and LeVert, a talented young wing who can handle the ball like a PG, which is a skill the Wolves need at the wing position given Andrew's weakness in that area. Getting Musa might be asking for too much, but another young wing with length would be nice renew the rebuilding process. The Knicks 2nd round pick should be a high one in the 31-38 range. The Nuggets pick is top 12 protected for 5 years before it converts to two second rounders, so the Wolves should get a 13-20 pick at some point. Carroll's value is mainly for salary match, but he could step right in and replace Butler in the starting lineup and help the Wolves stay reasonably competitive this season.

Why would the Nets to this? They get an allstar wing who has listed them as a team he'd resign with. He'd arrive wanting to be there. It would give their franchise instant credibility as they compete with the Knicks for the attention of NBA fans in that City. It could also help them attract a top free agent next summer when they can have a lot of cap space to sign another max player in addition to extending Butler. They'd still keep their most talented young player, Russell, as well. They'd also still have their own 2019 1st and 2nd round picks, so losing the Denver and Knick picks shouldn't be too big of a give for them.

3. CLIPPERS DEAL
Clippers get Butler & Patton
Wolves Get: (a) T. Harris, (b) Gilegeous-Alexander, (c) Clips 2021 1st rd pk-lottery protected

Why would the Wolves do this? Harris is a very good wing who can step in as the Wolves starting SF in place of Butler. Having just turned 26, he fits much better than Butler with our young core. Unlike Wiggins, he's an excellent rebounder and pretty good 3-point shooter, so he does some things Wiggins doesn't, although he's not nearly as talented as Wiggins overall. The downside is that he only has 1 yr. left on his contract, so the Wolves could lose him to free-agency next summer or be faced with a contract demand too steep for the Wolves given their other financial commitments and desire to avoid the luxury tax. For me the key would be Gilegeous-Alexander. He's a PG with unusual length and lots of skills - very intriguing. I'm not sure the Clippers would also give up their 2021 pick, but it would be nice icing for the Wolves.

Why would the Clippers do this? They know plugging Butler in with Lou Williams, Beverley makes them a competitive team that could possibly challenge for the 8th seed. Since they've traded their 2019 1st round pick, they get nothing from tanking this season. Moreover, they're one of the three teams Butler said he'd re-sign with and the Clippers are actually his first choice. Butler's presence would likely help them land a top free agent next summer when they should have cap room to sign another max player.

Good work here Lip. I'm glad you got Musa in there on a deal. :) I also like how you targeted those valueable 2nd round picks.

One thing I think is worth considering is whether the Sixers value Covington or Saric higher. Saric is a good young player but Covington is locked in for 4 seasons starting this year and is a perfect compliment to...well pretty much any team. Saric is cheap this year but could get some kind of decent payday...but probably nothing too crazy as a RFA. I'd be happy getting either one.

Wolfson is reporting that the Wolves are claiming they have an offer for a good player. Obviously that definition is up for debate but I'm feeling encouraged. Last year was a little different but let's be honest even a guy like Butler if healthy at the trade deadline could fetch a decent return. Teams have given up random 1st round picks for rentals and Butler is a top 20 player not some fringe starter type.

Nice work by Lip, but I don't think we have quite as much leverage as he suggests. We might have if Thibs had been willing to deal Butler at the draft. But that ship sailed. That was then, this is now. The good news is several teams appear to be interested, but they all know we have to make the trade quickly. Maybe we can get Richardson and that would be great if we don't have to take on Whiteside. Too bad the Knicks aren't operating like the Knicks of yesteryear. We would be celebrating the addition of Knox. In any event we should know the outcome soon.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Nice work by Lip, but I don't think we have quite as much leverage as he suggests. We might have if Thibs had been willing to deal Butler at the draft. But that ship sailed. That was then, this is now. The good news is several teams appear to be interested, but they all know we have to make the trade quickly. Maybe we can get Richardson and that would be great if we don't have to take on Whiteside. Too bad the Knicks aren't operating like the Knicks of yesteryear. We would be celebrating the addition of Knox. In any event we should know the outcome soon.

I'll admit, Cool, that I was pushing the boundaries of realistic a bit. :). I recall both of us nearly begging the Wolves to deal Butler leading up the draft. But alas, here we are.

The good news is that there seem to be several interested suitors. It appears as if there might be enough interest and activity to create a bit of a stampede mentality that gets us better offers than we might have otherwise expected. Regardless of how much we can ultimately get for Butler, I see the following as keys to making sure the Wolves don't screw this up:

1. Don't take any headcases (Whiteside) or injury-prone players (Gordon) in return unless they're in the last year of their contract and are necessary for salary-match purposes.

2. Make sure that the deal centers around acquiring young talent and/or draft picks and is NOT designed at all to add more veterans for sake of trying to compete this season.

3. Don't use the deal as a way to jettison Gorgui's. The deal should focus on getting the best talent possible in return for Butler. Expanding the deal to dump Gorgui's contract would reduce the talent we get in return.

4. Don't expand the deal to include giving up Wiggins, Tyus, Okogie or Diop. Those four, along with KAT, should be viewed as our young core to develop and build around. And I really want to see Wiggins playing for a better head coach who coaches to his strengths.