Minnesota Sports Forum

TheGrey08 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

60WinTim wrote:I like the Taj pickup. He still has at least two more years in the tank.

Thibs was very patient with a young team last year to evaluate the players. Obviously he decided Wiggins and KAT were the two worth building around. But even they have a ton of maturing/learning to do. Thibs is surrounding them with players that are going to force them to grow up faster.

Great young players have never needed a bunch of older vets around them to develop. Durant, Westbrook, Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Michael Jordan, etc. did just fin without it. To the extent we need a veteran presence, we already had that in Butler and we could have certainly added more for far less money.

That brings me to my problem with this signing and why I'm a nay. I like Gibson. I just think he's a bad value at $14 million per year when that contract effectively consumed our remaining cap space. It was too much money too early for a 20-25 minute per game 32 year old given all our needs and the other options still out there. This is the first move by Thibs so far this summer that I'd call a mistake. I liked the Butler trade, which was obviously a really good move for the Wolves. I didn't like the Rubio/Teague transaction, but I'm not prepared to call it a mistake. However, the Gibson signing was a mistake and seemed to suggest an uncharacteristic lack of patience and emotional move by the otherwise fairly patient and analytical Thibs.

I sure hope this signing works for us. I'd rather be wrong than right at the expense of the Wolves success. :)

Yeah, it's kind of pathetic that 3rd and 4th year players need "mentors" to teach them how to share the ball and play defense.....It also goes to show what a failed experiment signing KG was, as absolutely nothing he supposedly taught these guys carried over into the following season. Mentorship is only meaningful when the lessons learned are carried forward.

I've mentioned it before, but our so-called great offseason is a result of a failed "on" season. And the blame is shared by Thibs the POBO (none of his free agent signings panned out); Thibs the Coach (he barely moved the needle on defense); and the young players that showed so much promise and hope in the back half of the prior season.

I wouldn't disregard what a vet presence can mean to young guys. That vet presence doesn't need to be a superstar either. There are plenty of really smart basketball vets who are just bench guys and can have an impact on young guys. Remember Sam Mitchell with KG?

Also, KAT himself mentioned that he learned a lot from KG. Who are we to say they don't? lol

Then Towns is failing on applying what he learned.

Regardless of all this stuff Taj is a pretty solid player. I think he is better than a solid bench guy like Tolliver even if Tolliver fits better. If Belly is healthy now you have a nice mix of bigs you can throw out there at any time and Taj has the ability to be a stabilizing player because he has enough game to do a few things to help in a few facets of the game. Hopefully we get a bigger shooting forward like Casspi or Dunlevey or even both to have as an option as a small ball PF so it's not just Belly or nothing.

monsterpile wrote:Regardless of all this stuff Taj is a pretty solid player. I think he is better than a solid bench guy like Tolliver even if Tolliver fits better. If Belly is healthy now you have a nice mix of bigs you can throw out there at any time and Taj has the ability to be a stabilizing player because he has enough game to do a few things to help in a few facets of the game. Hopefully we get a bigger shooting forward like Casspi or Dunlevey or even both to have as an option as a small ball PF so it's not just Belly or nothing.

As I've mention, I like the player but not the salary. I do hope we re-sign Casspi to the vet minimum. He's a solid bench player who brings toughness, size and decent shooting.

crazysauce wrote:Lip, who would you have us sign instead of gibson. Our weak spots were pg and pf. We got teague and bowed out on millsap. What guy would you rather have at the pf spot with what there was to choose from that would sign for 10 mill or less per. Ibaka was too much as well. Even amir johnson got 11 million.

I think if we would have went cheaper we would have lost him as i hear he chose us with similar offers out there. I think all these contracts are crazy. I think his athleticism and defense next to kat are just what we need.

Here is a list of guys 30+ who I would have preferred over Taj at PF - Considering all will get less money than Taj, and Taj is either worse than them, or is marginally better:
*By the way, look at Taj's monster playoff numbers..

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Taj+Gibson&player_id1_select=Taj+Gibson&player_id1=gibsota01&y1=2017&player_id2_hint=Dante+Cunningham&player_id2_select=Dante+Cunningham&player_id2=cunnida01&idx=players&y2=2017&player_id3_hint=Nene&player_id3_select=Nene&player_id3=hilarne01&y3=2017&player_id4_hint=Zach+Randolph&player_id4_select=Zach+Randolph&player_id4=randoza01&y4=2017&player_id5_hint=Pau+Gasol&player_id5_select=Pau+Gasol&player_id5=gasolpa01&y5=2017&player_id6_hint=Amir+Johnson&player_id6_select=Amir+Johnson&player_id6=johnsam01&y6=2017

Here is a list of guys sub 30 who I'd prefer to Taj. These players have room to improve yet, and will also cost less:
*James Johnson is 30, but couldn't fit him on the above. I also left out RFAs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Taj+Gibson&player_id1_select=Taj+Gibson&player_id1=gibsota01&y1=2017&player_id2_hint=Patrick+Patterson&player_id2_select=Patrick+Patterson&player_id2=pattepa01&idx=players&y2=2017&player_id3_hint=Mike+Muscala&player_id3_select=Mike+Muscala&player_id3=muscami01&idx=players&y3=2017&player_id4_hint=Willie+Reed&player_id4_select=Willie+Reed&player_id4=reedwi02&idx=players&y4=2017&player_id5_hint=James+Johnson&player_id5_select=James+Johnson&player_id5=johnsja01&idx=players&y5=2017&player_id6_hint=Thomas+Robinson&player_id6_select=Thomas+Robinson&player_id6=robinth01&idx=players&y6=2017

Sorry for the huge links, but it wouldn't work otherwise.

Thibs and Layden and been super savy at the lengths of contracts. There is a short term play that they are making to elevate the short term prospects for KAT and Wiggs development in playoff environment. Every one of these contracts is movable and doesn't hinder us long term. I am really enthusiastic about what they've done. Is Taj the perfect fit? Maybe or maybe not, but this contract is extremely movable.

60WinTim wrote:

TheGrey08 wrote:I'm with Lip. I just don't like paying him 14m leaving us with only 4.3 in cap space (a small amount which has a 12th roster spot cap hold. Had this been a 2 yr 10-12m per I would have been on board with this signing. That would have at least given us 6+ mill to spend on a shooter before signing another guy with the room exception. That extra 2-4m may have made the difference in snagging a good shooter.

Well consider this! Aldrich was our #4 big and makes 7 mil. Taj bumps Aldrich out of the rotation, so if we wind up moving Aldrich for a backup wing, or cap space used to sign a backup wing, then we really only spent 7 mil on Taj... :)

lol it doesn't quite work that way ;) but I get what you are saying. The problem is Aldrich is still on the roster and there is no guarantee we can unload him without giving up the OKC pick at which point would make the Rubio trade pretty bad IMO. It would end up with us trading Rubio in order to unload Aldrich. Rubio is worth a lot more than just being bait to unload Aldrich, which is what it would boil down to at that point.

Note: I'm talking from an asset value standpoint. Trading Rubio just to clear space to sign Teague alone isn't good enough IMO.

WildWolf2813 wrote:

TheGrey08 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:
Yeah, it's kind of pathetic that 3rd and 4th year players need "mentors" to teach them how to share the ball and play defense.....It also goes to show what a failed experiment signing KG was, as absolutely nothing he supposedly taught these guys carried over into the following season. Mentorship is only meaningful when the lessons learned are carried forward.

I've mentioned it before, but our so-called great offseason is a result of a failed "on" season. And the blame is shared by Thibs the POBO (none of his free agent signings panned out); Thibs the Coach (he barely moved the needle on defense); and the young players that showed so much promise and hope in the back half of the prior season.

I wouldn't disregard what a vet presence can mean to young guys. That vet presence doesn't need to be a superstar either. There are plenty of really smart basketball vets who are just bench guys and can have an impact on young guys. Remember Sam Mitchell with KG?

Also, KAT himself mentioned that he learned a lot from KG. Who are we to say they don't? lol

Then Towns is failing on applying what he learned.

It doesn't always translate directly or immediately. He may have learned about hard work, being a great teammate, better techniques, etc. Differences that may slowly change or evolve. Besides learning isn't instantaneous. It's just very short sighted for any of us fans to claim certainty what a guy did or did not learn from his teammates. Coaching is extremely important and teammates matter. Coaching especially can make or break careers.

Let's not get too upset that a 21 year old center who's putting up historic numbers isn't putting out even better performances. We had basically zero veteran leadership last season so I don't know exactly what they were supposed to learn or form who while they had to carry the team scoring wise.

I may overrate Gibson but I think James Johnson could end up being one of those FAs people look back on and say...man that was a mistake he got paid on a couple decent years. He has had problems staying healthy although some of his missed games in his career probably were DNPs. I'm assuming he gets a decent chunk of money. It may work out but it's far from a given IMO.

With Taj you know what you are going to get if he is out there. The guy is smart and tough. If he loses a step a bit that's fine play him as a small ball center even if Towns plays a lot there will be minutes in game to do that. Defense is a lot more about the mental aspect than most people realize. The guy is 32 Vince carter is still balling at 40 and while he was a freak athlete and an anomaly it seems odd to put a folk in Taj in his early to lower mid 30's. Would someone else fit better? Maybe but he has played for Thibs and played with Butler that adds a bit when it comes to fit. Also this team needed smart tough basketball players as much as anything. He provides that about as much as any FA we could get. Let's see who else they bring in.

monsterpile wrote:I may overrate Gibson but I think James Johnson could end up being one of those FAs people look back on and say...man that was a mistake he got paid on a couple decent years. He has had problems staying healthy although some of his missed games in his career probably were DNPs. I'm assuming he gets a decent chunk of money. It may work out but it's far from a given IMO.

With Taj you know what you are going to get if he is out there. The guy is smart and tough. If he loses a step a bit that's fine play him as a small ball center even if Towns plays a lot there will be minutes in game to do that. Defense is a lot more about the mental aspect than most people realize. The guy is 32 Vince carter is still balling at 40 and while he was a freak athlete and an anomaly it seems odd to put a folk in Taj in his early to lower mid 30's. Would someone else fit better? Maybe but he has played for Thibs and played with Butler that adds a bit when it comes to fit. Also this team needed smart tough basketball players as much as anything. He provides that about as much as any FA we could get. Let's see who else they bring in.

I thought James Johnson was a big contract year guy as well. Maybe Spo got to him and that's who he'll be moving forward, but I would bet against that on most other teams.