Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:As noted, another ugly win. But again... a win is a win. You gotta taken them. Every time. But I was ready for a full-fledged tirade. They (nearly) blew that game...

- Good career night for Rubio behind the arc. He looked for that shot. And looked confident. Now... about those layups he keeps passing up...
- I was going to write about this earlier... but Payton owns Rubio for whatever reason. Coming into the game Payton averaged 18 / 7 / 5 vs. Rubio's 5 / 7 / 7 over their careers against each other.
- That last play in regulation for Orlando though. Oh. No. That was Kurt Rambis level bad basketball.
- Zach LaVine was terrible. Even worse defensively than offensively. He made CJ Watson look legit. CJ Watson! The worst play was when Payton drove the rim... and LaVine moved AWAY from him instead of challenging him in the 4th quarter. YUCK.
- Towns was pushed and shoved but kept battling. He's a lot of fun.
- Wiggins was all over the map in the 4th with TWO of the worst TOs of the year sandwiched around that dunk. But he came up big at the end and in OT.
- I was wondering why Dieng was on the bench and Bjelicia was playing the entire OT. Good call on that one coach. You were right...
- Orlando's GM has to get fired at some point. Turning Tobias Harris, Victor Oladipo, #11 pick, into one year of Serge Ibaka? That's not good. (Harris traded for Ersylova/Jennings for 1/2 season last year). And then wasting FA on Jeff Green and Biyombo? Pushing their most promising young player out of position at the 3 as a result? None of it makes sense.
- Tyus Jones was +2 in 4 seconds. Suck on that!

Yeah, LaVine has regressed over the past month or so. Just terrible defense. I've never seen a guy get so easily faked out of his shoes. He over-reacts so much to change of direction moves that he can't recover. Then he has to meet his nightly quota of at least one backdoor cut that he is totally oblivious to.

He was really pushing Wiggins as our #2 player for the first part of the season, but that trend has clearly changed of late! Let's hope he gets himself back on track!

monsterpile wrote:Rubio and Dunn combined (they played a few minutes together) for 26 points 12 rebounds 12 assists and 4 blocks. Not bad.

Yeah, they "did shit" for sure, although I actually thought Rubio nullified some of his great play with some poor decisions (the heat check 3, the easy layup he passed up, the late foul on Payton that sent him the line).

Dunn is now averaging 1.0 blocks per 36 minutes. That is pretty ridiculous for a point guard. He is going to be such a defensive monster. It's too bad we don't have the Center version of him.

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:As noted, another ugly win. But again... a win is a win. You gotta taken them. Every time. But I was ready for a full-fledged tirade. They (nearly) blew that game...

- Good career night for Rubio behind the arc. He looked for that shot. And looked confident. Now... about those layups he keeps passing up...
- I was going to write about this earlier... but Payton owns Rubio for whatever reason. Coming into the game Payton averaged 18 / 7 / 5 vs. Rubio's 5 / 7 / 7 over their careers against each other.
- That last play in regulation for Orlando though. Oh. No. That was Kurt Rambis level bad basketball.
- Zach LaVine was terrible. Even worse defensively than offensively. He made CJ Watson look legit. CJ Watson! The worst play was when Payton drove the rim... and LaVine moved AWAY from him instead of challenging him in the 4th quarter. YUCK.
- Towns was pushed and shoved but kept battling. He's a lot of fun.
- Wiggins was all over the map in the 4th with TWO of the worst TOs of the year sandwiched around that dunk. But he came up big at the end and in OT.
- I was wondering why Dieng was on the bench and Bjelicia was playing the entire OT. Good call on that one coach. You were right...
- Orlando's GM has to get fired at some point. Turning Tobias Harris, Victor Oladipo, #11 pick, into one year of Serge Ibaka? That's not good. (Harris traded for Ersylova/Jennings for 1/2 season last year). And then wasting FA on Jeff Green and Biyombo? Pushing their most promising young player out of position at the 3 as a result? None of it makes sense.
- Tyus Jones was +2 in 4 seconds. Suck on that!

Yeah, LaVine has regressed over the past month or so. Just terrible defense. I've never seen a guy get so easily faked out of his shoes. He over-reacts so much to change of direction moves that he can't recover. Then he has to meet his nightly quota of at least one backdoor cut that he is totally oblivious to.

He was really pushing Wiggins as our #2 player for the first part of the season, but that trend has clearly changed of late! Let's hope he gets himself back on track!

Lavine also had a good defensive read that led to a turnover late that was key. This wasn't his best game but I've seen him do some good things in the team concept. It felt like Orlando had some good stuff working last night was that a Adelman's doing? It wasn't a great night for Zach he went 1-6 from 3 and late so was questioning whether they should have just put Dunn in there defensively because Lavine...wasn't inspiring confidence in that end for sure. Anyway his stretch right now reminds me of last year when he had a chunk of games he struggled but he has already had a couple solid games before this one. He will pull out of it and I think his defense has gotten a little better although it has a ways to go. On the other hand Wiggins has stepped up bigtime on that end the past few games.

The Ibaka trade I was not a fan of although it made some sense. It shows how making a move for a vet giving up young assets can blow up in your face. Orlando is due to make a good move now as it seems they tend to make some good deals as well as bad ones although Inam not holding my breath.

Fun night at Target Center last night, as overtime games (or at least overtime wins) always are! I'll imbed my game report in the GDT because I don't have much beyond the excellent comments already in this thread. A couple thoughts:

1) Thibs said it in his post game, but I'll repeat it here. The Wolves came out with no energy, and it showed up especially on the defensive end. This team (and perhaps no teams other than GS and the Cavs) can expect to win in the NBA when you come out flat like that. Fortunately they were able to pick it when needed in the 4th and OT...and that's what good teams do when playing an inferior team.

2) Really fun to watch Ricky aggressive on offense (except for the bizarre passed-up layups) and hitting those threes...I continue to maintain that Ricky will make you pay if they leave him open beyond the arc, and he showed it last night.

3) On the other hand, Ricky struggled defensively last night, as Payton made him look silly at times. I will say that Payton is one of the smoothest ball handlers in the league...very impressive with the ball in his hands. Not sure why he didn't have more assists though, because it looked like he could penetrate at will.

4) Zach LaVine is really hurting us right now at both ends of the court. His defensive awareness is remarkably bad at times, and it's embarrassing that Shabazz is now better at defending shooting guards than he is...think about that. Thibs continues to stay with Zach (43 minutes last night) and maybe that is a good thing long term. But in my opinion we are a better team right now when Zach is not on the court. I love the guy and still think is upside is huge, but he is really struggling right now.

5) Thibs had a mixed game from a rotation standpoint, but since we won, I will say he was good on balance. What I liked was his aggressiveness in making offense/defense substitutions with the game on the line. I don't think he does this enough. When Ricky fouled out, my section was screaming for him to put Tyus in for offensive purposes, but oddly he left Dunn in. Fortunately Belly called a timeout because he couldn't inbound, and Thibs substituted the more reliable Tyus for Dunn. Better late than never!

6) What I didn't like was his insufficient reliance on his bench yet again. All five reserves had positive plus/minus numbers (as they so often do) and provided terrific defensive toughness on a night where the starters were soft. The bench is seldom fun to watch on offense, but man are they tough on defense! Thibs still needs to go to them more.

7) Gorgui had great rebounding numbers, but in my opinion, he didn't really have a great rebounding game...many of his rebounds were uncontested. For that reason, I support Thibs' decision to stay with Belly in the 4th and OT. Belly is a man on a team still led by boys, and his toughness showed up often when the game was on the line. Good on Thibs again for recognizing what Belly was contributing beyond the box score and leaving him in there.

8) As an aside, Gorgui was visibly unhappy about not getting minutes late. He had a whimsical look on his face after talking with as assistant coach after during a time out...had a little eye roll too. I like this. It shows G is a competitor and really wanted to be in there with the game on the line. But Thibs was right to leave him on the bench.

9) Rudez stretched and sprinted frequently during time outs and was ready to go as always if called upon :). He also had a very rare multi-rebound game!

10) If only Wig could bring the same intensity on defense that he brings on offense. He really wants the ball with the game on the line and has been effective, but his intensity and toughness were sorely lacking all game on defense.

11) Orlando has had two draft picks that I hated and will pat myself on the back for being right. Aaron Gordon is a very incomplete NBA player...he does very little well other than dunk. Poor shooter, defender and rebounder...wasted 4th pick IMO. And Mario Hezonga can't even get minutes on a very bad team. He was a shooter in Europe, but it's not translating to the NBA. Very bad pick. Picks like Hezonga and Gordon are how teams stay bad.

That's all I have...fun to see the team win on a night when they looked like they didn't really want to most of the game.

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:As noted, another ugly win. But again... a win is a win. You gotta taken them. Every time. But I was ready for a full-fledged tirade. They (nearly) blew that game...

- Good career night for Rubio behind the arc. He looked for that shot. And looked confident. Now... about those layups he keeps passing up...
- I was going to write about this earlier... but Payton owns Rubio for whatever reason. Coming into the game Payton averaged 18 / 7 / 5 vs. Rubio's 5 / 7 / 7 over their careers against each other.
- That last play in regulation for Orlando though. Oh. No. That was Kurt Rambis level bad basketball.
- Zach LaVine was terrible. Even worse defensively than offensively. He made CJ Watson look legit. CJ Watson! The worst play was when Payton drove the rim... and LaVine moved AWAY from him instead of challenging him in the 4th quarter. YUCK.
- Towns was pushed and shoved but kept battling. He's a lot of fun.
- Wiggins was all over the map in the 4th with TWO of the worst TOs of the year sandwiched around that dunk. But he came up big at the end and in OT.
- I was wondering why Dieng was on the bench and Bjelicia was playing the entire OT. Good call on that one coach. You were right...
- Orlando's GM has to get fired at some point. Turning Tobias Harris, Victor Oladipo, #11 pick, into one year of Serge Ibaka? That's not good. (Harris traded for Ersylova/Jennings for 1/2 season last year). And then wasting FA on Jeff Green and Biyombo? Pushing their most promising young player out of position at the 3 as a result? None of it makes sense.
- Tyus Jones was +2 in 4 seconds. Suck on that!

Yeah, LaVine has regressed over the past month or so. Just terrible defense. I've never seen a guy get so easily faked out of his shoes. He over-reacts so much to change of direction moves that he can't recover. Then he has to meet his nightly quota of at least one backdoor cut that he is totally oblivious to.

He was really pushing Wiggins as our #2 player for the first part of the season, but that trend has clearly changed of late! Let's hope he gets himself back on track!

Lavine also had a good defensive read that led to a turnover late that was key. This wasn't his best game but I've seen him do some good things in the team concept. It felt like Orlando had some good stuff working last night was that a Adelman's doing? It wasn't a great night for Zach he went 1-6 from 3 and late so was questioning whether they should have just put Dunn in there defensively because Lavine...wasn't inspiring confidence in that end for sure. Anyway his stretch right now reminds me of last year when he had a chunk of games he struggled but he has already had a couple solid games before this one. He will pull out of it and I think his defense has gotten a little better although it has a ways to go. On the other hand Wiggins has stepped up bigtime on that end the past few games.

The Ibaka trade I was not a fan of although it made some sense. It shows how making a move for a vet giving up young assets can blow up in your face. Orlando is due to make a good move now as it seems they tend to make some good deals as well as bad ones although Inam not holding my breath.

The Orlando moves...

- Trade young guy Tobias Harris for Brandon Jennings (1/2 season) and Ersan Ilyasova... even thought every NBA insider expected a better return (and a #1 pick) for Harris.
- Show no improvement in the standings. Miss the playoffs again. Let Jennings go.
- Trade Ilyasova as the THROW-IN along with Victor Oladipo AND the #11 pick.
- Sign Jeff Green for $15M
- Sign B. Biyombo because of one playoff run through the terrible East to a 4 year, $72M contract... even though the team's best two players (Ibaka/Vucevic) play the 4/5 already.
- Move the rapidly improving youngster and guy with most promise, A. Gordon, from the 4 to the 3 where he's not very good to make room for Vucevic, Ibaka, Biyombo in the frontcourt.

WHAT? WHY?

Dumbies.

Just noticed Long's post... two additional notes:

1. Kudos for Dieng for making the extra pass three times... with it leading to 8 points. All three were very unselfish basketball plays and should be commended.
2. Part of Gordon's problem is that he's limited a bit simply by playing out of position. Post ASB last season, he was a 12/7/2 guy on decent enough shooting and a Positive ORtg vs. DRtg. While playing the 4. At the least, you see if a young guy can improve on that, right? He's simply not a 3. He doesn't have the shot nor the handles for it. As noted, it makes the Magic's moves even more inexplicable.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:As noted, another ugly win. But again... a win is a win. You gotta taken them. Every time. But I was ready for a full-fledged tirade. They (nearly) blew that game...

- Good career night for Rubio behind the arc. He looked for that shot. And looked confident. Now... about those layups he keeps passing up...
- I was going to write about this earlier... but Payton owns Rubio for whatever reason. Coming into the game Payton averaged 18 / 7 / 5 vs. Rubio's 5 / 7 / 7 over their careers against each other.
- That last play in regulation for Orlando though. Oh. No. That was Kurt Rambis level bad basketball.
- Zach LaVine was terrible. Even worse defensively than offensively. He made CJ Watson look legit. CJ Watson! The worst play was when Payton drove the rim... and LaVine moved AWAY from him instead of challenging him in the 4th quarter. YUCK.
- Towns was pushed and shoved but kept battling. He's a lot of fun.
- Wiggins was all over the map in the 4th with TWO of the worst TOs of the year sandwiched around that dunk. But he came up big at the end and in OT.
- I was wondering why Dieng was on the bench and Bjelicia was playing the entire OT. Good call on that one coach. You were right...
- Orlando's GM has to get fired at some point. Turning Tobias Harris, Victor Oladipo, #11 pick, into one year of Serge Ibaka? That's not good. (Harris traded for Ersylova/Jennings for 1/2 season last year). And then wasting FA on Jeff Green and Biyombo? Pushing their most promising young player out of position at the 3 as a result? None of it makes sense.
- Tyus Jones was +2 in 4 seconds. Suck on that!

Yeah, LaVine has regressed over the past month or so. Just terrible defense. I've never seen a guy get so easily faked out of his shoes. He over-reacts so much to change of direction moves that he can't recover. Then he has to meet his nightly quota of at least one backdoor cut that he is totally oblivious to.

He was really pushing Wiggins as our #2 player for the first part of the season, but that trend has clearly changed of late! Let's hope he gets himself back on track!

Lavine also had a good defensive read that led to a turnover late that was key. This wasn't his best game but I've seen him do some good things in the team concept. It felt like Orlando had some good stuff working last night was that a Adelman's doing? It wasn't a great night for Zach he went 1-6 from 3 and late so was questioning whether they should have just put Dunn in there defensively because Lavine...wasn't inspiring confidence in that end for sure. Anyway his stretch right now reminds me of last year when he had a chunk of games he struggled but he has already had a couple solid games before this one. He will pull out of it and I think his defense has gotten a little better although it has a ways to go. On the other hand Wiggins has stepped up bigtime on that end the past few games.

The Ibaka trade I was not a fan of although it made some sense. It shows how making a move for a vet giving up young assets can blow up in your face. Orlando is due to make a good move now as it seems they tend to make some good deals as well as bad ones although Inam not holding my breath.

The Orlando moves...

- Trade young guy Tobias Harris for Brandon Jennings (1/2 season) and Ersan Ilyasova... even thought every NBA insider expected a better return (and a #1 pick) for Harris.
- Show no improvement in the standings. Miss the playoffs again. Let Jennings go.
- Trade Ilyasova as the THROW-IN along with Victor Oladipo AND the #11 pick.
- Sign Jeff Green for $15M
- Sign B. Biyombo because of one playoff run through the terrible East to a 4 year, $72M contract... even though the team's best two players (Ibaka/Vucevic) play the 4/5 already.
- Move the rapidly improving youngster and guy with most promise, A. Gordon, from the 4 to the 3 where he's not very good to make room for Vucevic, Ibaka, Biyombo in the frontcourt.

WHAT? WHY?

Dumbies.

Agreed on your points. So what is more bizarre is that I get it they had a bunch of guys that play the same positions or sort of so it made sense to move some guys. So what they did was mak moves to logjam themselves when it comes to bigs. It makes no sense and they got older but didn't really add to the upside of the team. Sometimes it's better to just stick with what you have than make a bunch of moves. I don't get what the plan is there which is obviously a problem.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Just noticed Long's post... two additional notes:

1. Kudos for Dieng for making the extra pass three times... with it leading to 8 points. All three were very unselfish basketball plays and should be commended.
2. Part of Gordon's problem is that he's limited a bit simply by playing out of position. Post ASB last season, he was a 12/7/2 guy on decent enough shooting and a Positive ORtg vs. DRtg. While playing the 4. At the least, you see if a young guy can improve on that, right? He's simply not a 3. He doesn't have the shot nor the handles for it. As noted, it makes the Magic's moves even more inexplicable.

I still like Gordon. He turned 21 in September. He is still pretty young. Is he a SF? Idk if he can start hitting those 3's he is taking things get more interesting whichever postion he is at. Like I said at the beginning of the thread Orlando doesn't have any top level players right now. Hezonjia hasn't gotten many opportunities but he hasn't been too good when he has. If he doesn't turn into something worthwhile that's going to hurt bigtime. that was sort of a boom or bust pick and he is still young and could figure it out but it's not looking good right now.

Couple other tid-bits from this game, to add to what LST and Abe wrote....

- Wiggins went left on both the epic dunk and his game-tying jumper. Progress!
- However....Wiggins ability to make passes off the dribble continues to be a struggle. Not progress!
- Back to Wiggins' dunk....It was on a Rubio/Wiggins Pick and Roll, with Rubio as the screener. I think the reason Thibs does this is that opposing PGs simply aren't familiar with how to defend PnR when it's their guy doing the screening. In this case, Aaron Gordon iced the screen by trying to prevent Wiggins from going right. The problem is Elfrid Payton never cut off the driving lane left and kind of just stuck with Rubio. The result.....MONSTER DUNK!!!