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Re: The Love-Wiggins Deal Thread
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:56 pm
by AbeVigodaLive
alexftbl8181 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:alexftbl8181 wrote:This leverage at this point isn't even about Love walking at the end of year as it is the fact the Cavs could make a deal that would make them a clear title contender for years.
Even if Wiggins becomes a top 3, top 5, top 10 player, If the Cavs only win ONE title, then trade would of been worth it.
Irrelevant.
You're still wanting Cleveland to give up more than they need to... just "because."
They have to give up more because Wiggins makes a rookie salary and Love makes a max salary
I understand that part. I'm talking "value" here. Why should they have to send other good assets instead of average ones or bad ones to make the salaries work?
Re: The Love-Wiggins Deal Thread
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:14 pm
by alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]
AbeVigodaLive wrote:alexftbl8181 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:alexftbl8181 wrote:This leverage at this point isn't even about Love walking at the end of year as it is the fact the Cavs could make a deal that would make them a clear title contender for years.
Even if Wiggins becomes a top 3, top 5, top 10 player, If the Cavs only win ONE title, then trade would of been worth it.
Irrelevant.
You're still wanting Cleveland to give up more than they need to... just "because."
They have to give up more because Wiggins makes a rookie salary and Love makes a max salary
I understand that part. I'm talking "value" here. Why should they have to send other good assets instead of average ones or bad ones to make the salaries work?
Because Love is a highly valued asset.
Fact, there isn't another player that the Cavs could trade for right now that would make them a title contender other the Kevin Love. That's where Love's value is
Re: The Love-Wiggins Deal Thread
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:17 pm
by TheGrey08
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
I understand that part. I'm talking "value" here. Why should they have to send other good assets instead of average ones or bad ones to make the salaries work?
1) Because Wiggins alone isn't enough to get Love. Wiggins, Thompson & a 1st would be more than fair.
2) If Love holds less value b/c he's said he won't resign then Thompson/Bennett have less value b/c they would be PF #2 & 3 with Love in CLE.
3) CLE can't acquire Love any other way, but via trade.
4) Getting Love instantly gives them a shot at a dynasty.
5) Most of CLE's assets that make the deal work are their young guys. Have you looked at their roster? Outside of TT, Bennett, Wiggins & Waiters they have 3 guys at 2.2 mill, 816k, 816k. The only other guy they have that make things work salary wise is Varejao who isn't going anywhere b/c Lebron wants to play with him.
6) Wiggins currently equates to 0 salary in a trade (which is beyond stupid IMO.. his cap hold should be his slotted scale & it should count in trades)
Re: The Love-Wiggins Deal Thread
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:18 pm
by AbeVigodaLive
alexftbl8181 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:alexftbl8181 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:alexftbl8181 wrote:This leverage at this point isn't even about Love walking at the end of year as it is the fact the Cavs could make a deal that would make them a clear title contender for years.
Even if Wiggins becomes a top 3, top 5, top 10 player, If the Cavs only win ONE title, then trade would of been worth it.
Irrelevant.
You're still wanting Cleveland to give up more than they need to... just "because."
They have to give up more because Wiggins makes a rookie salary and Love makes a max salary
I understand that part. I'm talking "value" here. Why should they have to send other good assets instead of average ones or bad ones to make the salaries work?
Because Love is a highly valued asset.
Fact, there isn't another player that the Cavs could trade for right now that would make them a title contender other the Kevin Love. That's where Love's value is
ugh.
I'm done. This is getting nowhere.
Re: The Love-Wiggins Deal Thread
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:19 pm
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
TheGrey08 wrote:longstrangetrip wrote:
I can only assume that rumor came from a Cavs' homer who doesn't understand how NBA salaries work in a trade. He undervalues Love as much as the homers on this board overvalue Love!
I really don't see much if any overvaluing of Love on this board. Most are talking about his TRUE value (top 5-10 player in his early prime) and not this BS trade value where teams think they can get someone for 25 cents on the dollar.
You don't see the overvaluing because you are looking at this through a Wolves' fan lens, as are many on this board. And if you go to a Cavs' fan board, you see Love undervalued because they are looking at the deal through their own homer lens. And people on this board make fun of them, and we make fun of disinterested league GM's who are undecided about whether Love is worth giving up Wiggins and mock them for not being able to see the "truth". That's because the "truth" is wildly different depending on which team you are cheering for. I hate to break it to you guys, but just because most of us live in a better city than Cleveland, it doesn't make us any smarter about basketball. I find many of the Cavs' fans comments unbalanced, but frankly I find many comments here equally unbalanced in the other direction.
That's what makes me believe the truth is somewhere between what I read here and what I read on the Cavs' boards. I keep reading here that Love is a top 10 player and Wiggins is unproven. I agree that is true if you are looking at starts alone. But this isn't fantasy basketball, this is real life. And Cleveland is looking at aspects of Kevin Love other than scoring and rebounding. And they're listening to what some pundits are saying about Love and hearing comments like these:
1) Kevin Love has been in the league 6 years and hasn't been able to lead his team to the playoffs.
2) Kevin Love doesn't appear to care about defense, and isn't very athletic when he does care.
3) Kevin Love is a cancer in the locker room (heard on ESPN yesterday) and is disliked by his teammates
4) Kevin Love was maligned by his first NBA coach, and isn't liked by his current one (also on ESPN yesterday)
5) Other then one game winning shot against the Clippers, Kevin Love has not shown the ability to make the clutch shot.
If you're playing fantasy basketball, Love is a top 3 player. but if you're an NBA GM worried about keeping his job, you can't ignore these 5 comments, because top ten players don't have all these things said about them. Top ten players win and have the respect of their teammates. And it's that uncertainty that keeps them from giving us what we think Kevin is worth based on his stats.
It bugs me when I keep reading that giving up Wiggins is a "no brainer", and when contrary opinions are mocked. If we all really were smarter than the NBA guys who are undecided, we would have their jobs.
Re: The Love-Wiggins Deal Thread
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:20 pm
by TheGrey08
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
ugh.
I'm done. This is getting nowhere.
You asked why does CLE have to give other valued assets. What lower value assets do they have that would make the deal work?
Re: The Love-Wiggins Deal Thread
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:22 pm
by MikeAz [enjin:6636981]
This report says that he Wolves would prefer Klay to Wiggins. I'm not sure I'm buying it though.
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/18/report-timberwolves-prefer-klay-thompson-to-andrew-wiggins-in-kevin-love-trade/
Re: The Love-Wiggins Deal Thread
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:25 pm
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Camden wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:alexftbl8181 wrote:Love/Brew for Wiggins/Thompson/Waiters/Haywood and a 1st
Fair for everybody
No. Cleveland loses that deal by a significant margin.
For the love of all things good, please get it in your head that we're trading a top-10 (top-five in my opinion) player in the NBA. Minnesota loses every Love trade because of that reason alone. If the Cavs are lucky enough to stumble on to Love, they are the clear winners. Trading unknowns for a for sure star works out almost every time, especially for Cleveland as they likely win multiple rings with that core.
Yes. I understand how good Love is. In fact, for years, I've been one of the few on here wondering why Love was getting ripped so much and Rubio was being praised so much.
But I also understand how the NBA works. And how trades work when a star player requests a trade with an end date. It's difficult to find "even value" trades in those situations. While I think it makes perfect sense for Cleveland to trade for a top 5- 12 NBA player that complements its new star player... others might want to get as much value as possible for the #1 pick in an allegedly loaded draft class.
Furthermore, Dion Waiters was the #4 pick just two seasons ago and he showed signs of promise, averaging 16 ppg last season at only 22. Should he be the centerpiece in a Love trade? Hell no. But he has value around the league.
A lot of people are on the fence about Love - Wiggins as it is. While both of us may see the sure thing in Love being better... it's not unanimous. In fact, Wiggins holds a ton of value despite never playing in the NBA.
If we look back at other trades like this, Wiggins alone would make this a good trade for the Wolves. Adding in another promising player (or two) is probably not necessary... if we go by NBA history.
[Note: Just to be sure... Yes. I think Love is the better player. I think he's perfect with James in Cleveland. I think the Wolves are worse after trading Love... for possibly a long time. By "winning" or "losing" the trade, I'm talking about the specifics of the trade itself using the context of other trades and the situation. Personally, I think they can get Love without giving up Waiters and Wiggins. So if they give up both... they "lose" the trade. Make sense?]
They would be getting great value for that No. 1 pick, considering he's far from a sure thing and while he has a high ceiling, he could just as easily bottom out and become a better version of Corey Brewer. You trade guys like that plus other unknowns for a star to lock up an NBA trophy 10 times out of 10 in my book.
Waiters' draft class is over. I couldn't care less if he was picked No. 4 or No. 40. I do realize the talent he has, though, which is why I'd like to get him and see if Flip could get the best out of him. His value around the league though isn't that desirable. He's known as a locker room cancer and a chucker, while already being slightly undersized for his position.
The reason the rest of the world is on the fence about Love/Wiggins is because the majority is absolutely clueless as to how good Love is. They think he's just a stat stuffer on a bad team who's never made the playoffs because he's just not that good, which is so far from the truth as you should know. Intelligent basketball minds know his ability, though, and that's what I'm working off of.
This isn't a situation that should be compared to trades in the past. This is different for a couple reasons:
1) LeBron has reached out to Love about playing with him. LeBron gets what LeBron wants.
2) According to NBA rules, salary in a trade has to match or be somewhat close (don't kill me if the wording/length of the rule is off). Cleveland doesn't have other contracts to make this trade work other than a Bennett, Waiters, Varejao or Thompson. Varejao is practically off the table since that's LeBron's buddy. That leaves three former high first round picks with salaries around $5M each. If you're Cleveland, there's not much you can really do except give up several, if not all, of those young players to get this trade to match salary-wise. Even if they sign Wiggins today and wait this out a month, two of those young players + Wiggins will still need to return to Minnesota.
"Personally, I think they can get Love without giving up Waiters and Wiggins. So if they give up both... they "lose" the trade. Make sense?"
And how do they get Love without trading for him? Even if they wiped their roster clean except for Irving and LeBron next summer, they'd still be cutting it close on the cap (in which they should have just made the trade in July). Not to mention Flip would probably trade Love elsewhere (Golden State) before that time so that would difficult some things as well. There is absolutely no way Love lands on the Cavs without them trading for him, and to do that it will take Wiggins ++.
PS: I can't remember the last time a team traded for a star player, won a championship because of that trade, then looked back at the trade as them losing it. The whole goal of building a team is to win a ring. If that trade was the necessary factor in putting them over the top, then it was a grand success and nobody in Cleveland would give a shit about Wiggins/Waiters/Bennett/Thompson being in Minnesota.
Re: The Love-Wiggins Deal Thread
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:27 pm
by MikeAz [enjin:6636981]
longstrangetrip wrote:TheGrey08 wrote:longstrangetrip wrote:
I can only assume that rumor came from a Cavs' homer who doesn't understand how NBA salaries work in a trade. He undervalues Love as much as the homers on this board overvalue Love!
I really don't see much if any overvaluing of Love on this board. Most are talking about his TRUE value (top 5-10 player in his early prime) and not this BS trade value where teams think they can get someone for 25 cents on the dollar.
You don't see the overvaluing because you are looking at this through a Wolves' fan lens, as are many on this board. And if you go to a Cavs' fan board, you see Love undervalued because they are looking at the deal through their own homer lens. And people on this board make fun of them, and we make fun of disinterested league GM's who are undecided about whether Love is worth giving up Wiggins and mock them for not being able to see the "truth". That's because the "truth" is wildly different depending on which team you are cheering for. I hate to break it to you guys, but just because most of us live in a better city than Cleveland, it doesn't make us any smarter about basketball. I find many of the Cavs' fans comments unbalanced, but frankly I find many comments here equally unbalanced in the other direction.
That's what makes me believe the truth is somewhere between what I read here and what I read on the Cavs' boards. I keep reading here that Love is a top 10 player and Wiggins is unproven. I agree that is true if you are looking at starts alone. But this isn't fantasy basketball, this is real life. And Cleveland is looking at aspects of Kevin Love other than scoring and rebounding. And they're listening to what some pundits are saying about Love and hearing comments like these:
1) Kevin Love has been in the league 6 years and hasn't been able to lead his team to the playoffs.
2) Kevin Love doesn't appear to care about defense, and isn't very athletic when he does care.
3) Kevin Love is a cancer in the locker room (heard on ESPN yesterday) and is disliked by his teammates
4) Kevin Love was maligned by his first NBA coach, and isn't liked by his current one (also on ESPN yesterday)
5) Other then one game winning shot against the Clippers, Kevin Love has not shown the ability to make the clutch shot.
If you're playing fantasy basketball, Love is a top 3 player. but if you're an NBA GM worried about keeping his job, you can't ignore these 5 comments, because top ten players don't have all these things said about them. Top ten players win and have the respect of their teammates. And it's that uncertainty that keeps them from giving us what we think Kevin is worth based on his stats.
It bugs me when I keep reading that giving up Wiggins is a "no brainer", and when contrary opinions are mocked. If we all really were smarter than the NBA guys who are undecided, we would have their jobs.
If you are playing fantasy basketball, Love is a top 3 player in the NBA. If you're a risk-avoidant GM and focus on the 5 statements above, Love is a huge risk. Again, his real value is somewhere in between, because top 10 players don't have comments like the 5 comment above said about them.
I know this isn't a popular message here, but if the guys on this board who mock the league's balanced consensus opinion of Love were really that much smarter than all those GM's, they would have their jobs.
Let me ask you this, if Love's contract wasn't an issue, would you still trade Love for Wiggins? I very much doubt the Wolves would.
Re: The Love-Wiggins Deal Thread
Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:28 pm
by alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]
If you are playing fantasy basketball, Love is a top 3 player in the NBA. If you're a risk-avoidant GM and focus on the 5 statements above, Love is a huge risk. Again, his real value is somewhere in between, because top 10 players don't have comments like the 5 comment above said about them.
I know this isn't a popular message here, but if the guys on this board who mock the league's balanced consensus opinion of Love were really that much smarter than all those GM's, they would have their jobs.
If you compare the top 10 players to the top 10 fantasy players, I'd say they're pretty damn close