Minnesota Sports Forum

Monster wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 10:55 pm I’m not sure what you are looking at Carlos. McLaughlin played 19 total minutes the first 2 months and 32 minutes in December. Shake Milton played more minutes in the first 3 games 55 than McLaughlin did in the first 3 months. They absolutely signed Milton to be the first guard off the bench and play at least some sort of PG minutes. He was the starting PG for the sixers for a number of games the previous season when filling in for inured guys and played very well.

I tried to spell it out for you in my original post. There was a very good reason why McLaughlin wasn't playing earlier in the year....no, it wasn't because Shake was such a tremendous PG as you suggest. It was because JMac was hurt. JMac played five of the first six games of the season and then got hurt in Boston (the 6th game of the season). Here is his injury log:

November 7, 2023
McLaughlin was diagnosed Tuesday with an MCL sprain in his right knee and will re-evaluated in four weeks, Adrian Wojnarowski of ESPN reports.

November 20, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) was spotted during Monday's shootaround getting shots up while sporting a knee brace, Jace Frederick of St. Paul Pioneer Press reports.

December 7, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) is listed as questionable for Friday's game versus the Grizzlies.

December 8, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) is available for Friday's game against Memphis.

So yeah...Shake played more minutes than him - of course. Shake's a SG and can handle some PG (similar to NAW). But, that certainly doesn't mean they went into the season thinking Shake was PG2 though. As soon as JMac was healthy enough to play, they started plugging him back in. But the knee obviously still bothered him. Just look at more injury report news from December:

December 10, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) is questionable for Monday's game against the Pelicans.

December 13, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) is questionable for Thursday's game against Dallas.

And while Shake was decent for the Sixers, he was pretty bad here. I doubt they would have been playing Shake over Jmac at PG if both were healthy. Don't take my word for it. You can see that in the game logs. Once JMac was fully healthy (starting in January), he was getting regular minutes every game.

Carlos Danger wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 1:46 pm

Monster wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 10:55 pm I’m not sure what you are looking at Carlos. McLaughlin played 19 total minutes the first 2 months and 32 minutes in December. Shake Milton played more minutes in the first 3 games 55 than McLaughlin did in the first 3 months. They absolutely signed Milton to be the first guard off the bench and play at least some sort of PG minutes. He was the starting PG for the sixers for a number of games the previous season when filling in for inured guys and played very well.

I tried to spell it out for you in my original post. There was a very good reason why McLaughlin wasn't playing earlier in the year....no, it wasn't because Shake was such a tremendous PG as you suggest. It was because JMac was hurt. JMac played five of the first six games of the season and then got hurt in Boston (the 6th game of the season). Here is his injury log:

November 7, 2023
McLaughlin was diagnosed Tuesday with an MCL sprain in his right knee and will re-evaluated in four weeks, Adrian Wojnarowski of ESPN reports.

November 20, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) was spotted during Monday's shootaround getting shots up while sporting a knee brace, Jace Frederick of St. Paul Pioneer Press reports.

December 7, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) is listed as questionable for Friday's game versus the Grizzlies.

December 8, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) is available for Friday's game against Memphis.

So yeah...Shake played more minutes than him - of course. Shake's a SG and can handle some PG (similar to NAW). But, that certainly doesn't mean they went into the season thinking Shake was PG2 though. As soon as JMac was healthy enough to play, they started plugging him back in. But the knee obviously still bothered him. Just look at more injury report news from December:

December 10, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) is questionable for Monday's game against the Pelicans.

December 13, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) is questionable for Thursday's game against Dallas.

And while Shake was decent for the Sixers, he was pretty bad here. I doubt they would have been playing Shake over Jmac at PG if both were healthy. Don't take my word for it. You can see that in the game logs. Once JMac was fully healthy (starting in January), he was getting regular minutes every game.

The Wolves signed Shake to a 2-year $5M deal (over 2X the salary JMac was earning) with the hopes that he could be a combo guard off the bench that would provide scoring and play making spark. He was absolutely ahead of JMac in the guard rotation to start the year, before JMac's injury.

The role Shake was supposed to fill was the one they hoped Jaylen Nowell could fill the year before (and failed). So they gave Shake every chance to find a rhythm, but he just never did and eventually they moved on from him. That happened to coincide with JMac getting healthier.

And now we see this offseason the front office trying AGAIN to fill that role, this time with Rob Dillingham, with the hopes he can grow into a starting-caliber PG eventually.

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 2:57 pm

Carlos Danger wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 1:46 pm

Monster wrote: ↑Sat Jul 27, 2024 10:55 pm I’m not sure what you are looking at Carlos. McLaughlin played 19 total minutes the first 2 months and 32 minutes in December. Shake Milton played more minutes in the first 3 games 55 than McLaughlin did in the first 3 months. They absolutely signed Milton to be the first guard off the bench and play at least some sort of PG minutes. He was the starting PG for the sixers for a number of games the previous season when filling in for inured guys and played very well.

I tried to spell it out for you in my original post. There was a very good reason why McLaughlin wasn't playing earlier in the year....no, it wasn't because Shake was such a tremendous PG as you suggest. It was because JMac was hurt. JMac played five of the first six games of the season and then got hurt in Boston (the 6th game of the season). Here is his injury log:

November 7, 2023
McLaughlin was diagnosed Tuesday with an MCL sprain in his right knee and will re-evaluated in four weeks, Adrian Wojnarowski of ESPN reports.

November 20, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) was spotted during Monday's shootaround getting shots up while sporting a knee brace, Jace Frederick of St. Paul Pioneer Press reports.

December 7, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) is listed as questionable for Friday's game versus the Grizzlies.

December 8, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) is available for Friday's game against Memphis.

So yeah...Shake played more minutes than him - of course. Shake's a SG and can handle some PG (similar to NAW). But, that certainly doesn't mean they went into the season thinking Shake was PG2 though. As soon as JMac was healthy enough to play, they started plugging him back in. But the knee obviously still bothered him. Just look at more injury report news from December:

December 10, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) is questionable for Monday's game against the Pelicans.

December 13, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) is questionable for Thursday's game against Dallas.

And while Shake was decent for the Sixers, he was pretty bad here. I doubt they would have been playing Shake over Jmac at PG if both were healthy. Don't take my word for it. You can see that in the game logs. Once JMac was fully healthy (starting in January), he was getting regular minutes every game.

The Wolves signed Shake to a 2-year $5M deal (over 2X the salary JMac was earning) with the hopes that he could be a combo guard off the bench that would provide scoring and play making spark. He was absolutely ahead of JMac in the guard rotation to start the year, before JMac's injury.

The role Shake was supposed to fill was the one they hoped Jaylen Nowell could fill the year before (and failed). So they gave Shake every chance to find a rhythm, but he just never did and eventually they moved on from him. That happened to coincide with JMac getting healthier.

And now we see this offseason the front office trying AGAIN to fill that role, this time with Rob Dillingham, with the hopes he can grow into a starting-caliber PG eventually.

Well, it's very easy to be ahead of someone on the rotation when the other guy is not cleared to play. Shake was never officially PG2. Show me ANY link that has him at #2 PG in the depth chart. He took minutes there when JMac got hurt. And as soon as JMac got fully healthy, he was back to his role of PG2. That's not a coincidence - come on!

And to be clear, I'm talking about PG2 (2nd unit). As far as the first guard off the bench, that's a different conversation. The Wolves tried (unsuccessfully IMO) to play some line ups without a true PG at times last year. If you look up the games where Conley sat last year, it wasn't Shake or JMac that started in his place. It was NAW.

And as far as the Wolves making some big commitment to Shake (2 years) - remember only the first year of that was guaranteed. It was not much of a commitment at all - more of a flier IMO.

I absolutely remember the hope was for Milton to be Conley's backup:

https://www.startribune.com/new-minneso ... /600311909

JMac didn't play the first game, and averaged less than 4 MPG in the next 5 games until he was out with an injury.

Carlos Danger wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 3:35 pm

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 2:57 pm

Carlos Danger wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 1:46 pm

I tried to spell it out for you in my original post. There was a very good reason why McLaughlin wasn't playing earlier in the year....no, it wasn't because Shake was such a tremendous PG as you suggest. It was because JMac was hurt. JMac played five of the first six games of the season and then got hurt in Boston (the 6th game of the season). Here is his injury log:

November 7, 2023
McLaughlin was diagnosed Tuesday with an MCL sprain in his right knee and will re-evaluated in four weeks, Adrian Wojnarowski of ESPN reports.

November 20, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) was spotted during Monday's shootaround getting shots up while sporting a knee brace, Jace Frederick of St. Paul Pioneer Press reports.

December 7, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) is listed as questionable for Friday's game versus the Grizzlies.

December 8, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) is available for Friday's game against Memphis.

So yeah...Shake played more minutes than him - of course. Shake's a SG and can handle some PG (similar to NAW). But, that certainly doesn't mean they went into the season thinking Shake was PG2 though. As soon as JMac was healthy enough to play, they started plugging him back in. But the knee obviously still bothered him. Just look at more injury report news from December:

December 10, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) is questionable for Monday's game against the Pelicans.

December 13, 2023
McLaughlin (knee) is questionable for Thursday's game against Dallas.

And while Shake was decent for the Sixers, he was pretty bad here. I doubt they would have been playing Shake over Jmac at PG if both were healthy. Don't take my word for it. You can see that in the game logs. Once JMac was fully healthy (starting in January), he was getting regular minutes every game.

The Wolves signed Shake to a 2-year $5M deal (over 2X the salary JMac was earning) with the hopes that he could be a combo guard off the bench that would provide scoring and play making spark. He was absolutely ahead of JMac in the guard rotation to start the year, before JMac's injury.

The role Shake was supposed to fill was the one they hoped Jaylen Nowell could fill the year before (and failed). So they gave Shake every chance to find a rhythm, but he just never did and eventually they moved on from him. That happened to coincide with JMac getting healthier.

And now we see this offseason the front office trying AGAIN to fill that role, this time with Rob Dillingham, with the hopes he can grow into a starting-caliber PG eventually.

Well, it's very easy to be ahead of someone on the rotation when the other guy is not cleared to play. Shake was never officially PG2. Show me ANY link that has him at #2 PG in the depth chart. He took minutes there when JMac got hurt. And as soon as JMac got fully healthy, he was back to his role of PG2. That's not a coincidence - come on!

And to be clear, I'm talking about PG2 (2nd unit). As far as the first guard off the bench, that's a different conversation. The Wolves tried (unsuccessfully IMO) to play some line ups without a true PG at times last year. If you look up the games where Conley sat last year, it wasn't Shake or JMac that started in his place. It was NAW.

And as far as the Wolves making some big commitment to Shake (2 years) - remember only the first year of that was guaranteed. It was not much of a commitment at all - more of a flier IMO.

JMac was cleared to play to start the season and indeed did play in 5 out of the first 6 games as you said previously. And just because JMac was officially tagged as a PG by b-ball reference or whatever site you are using is meaningless if he's only playing 3 minutes per game. I guess that made him PG2 based purely on the rigid way in which those sites assign positional labels since they don't have a "combo" guard label (which is what NAW and Shake fit) or "point forward" label which is the role Kyle Anderson played. The bottom line is that Shake was ahead of JMac in the guard rotation. But if your argument is only that JMac is more of pure PG than Shake and deserves the "PG" label more, then I would agree.

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 4:06 pm JMac was cleared to play to start the season and indeed did play in 5 out of the first 6 games as you said previously. And just because JMac was officially tagged as a PG by b-ball reference or whatever site you are using is meaningless if he's only playing 3 minutes per game. I guess that made him PG2 based purely on the rigid way in which those sites assign positional labels since they don't have a "combo" guard label (which is what NAW and Shake fit) or "point forward" label which is the role Kyle Anderson played. The bottom line is that Shake was ahead of JMac in the guard rotation. But if your argument is only that JMac is more of pure PG than Shake and deserves the "PG" label more, then I would agree.

Yes. Shake was ahead of Jmac in the rotation. I won't dispute that. I was strictly speaking to PG duties.

I don't know why JMac didn't play much the first few games. It looks like Finch mainly only played 8 guys + TBJ for only 5 minutes. Perhaps he was still auditioning guys - IDK. Jmac played well in pre-season (25.8 PER) and I think was more of a "known" commodity based on his history here.

Regarding official positions, I would agree it's possibly time to start combining positions or create new labels like "combo guard" as todays players sort of crossover into different roles.

Carlos Danger wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 4:29 pm

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 4:06 pm JMac was cleared to play to start the season and indeed did play in 5 out of the first 6 games as you said previously. And just because JMac was officially tagged as a PG by b-ball reference or whatever site you are using is meaningless if he's only playing 3 minutes per game. I guess that made him PG2 based purely on the rigid way in which those sites assign positional labels since they don't have a "combo" guard label (which is what NAW and Shake fit) or "point forward" label which is the role Kyle Anderson played. The bottom line is that Shake was ahead of JMac in the guard rotation. But if your argument is only that JMac is more of pure PG than Shake and deserves the "PG" label more, then I would agree.

Yes. Shake was ahead of Jmac in the rotation. I won't dispute that. I was strictly speaking to PG duties.

I don't know why JMac didn't play much the first few games. It looks like Finch mainly only played 8 guys + TBJ for only 5 minutes. Perhaps he was still auditioning guys - IDK. Jmac played well in pre-season (25.8 PER) and I think was more of a "known" commodity based on his history here.

Regarding official positions, I would agree it's possibly time to start combining positions or create new labels like "combo guard" as todays players sort of crossover into different roles.

What backup PG plays 3 minutes a game? McLaughlin was nowhere near the top backup PG to start the season. I'm pretty sure that a chunk of McLaughlin's minutes he did play was in garbage time. In those 5 games he played before he got hurt he played at most like 10 minutes more than Josh Minott. Was he healthy for the first game of the season? He didn't even play that game. Shake Milton played over 21mpg in that game. I'd guess he probably shared the court a lot early on with Kyle Anderson. If you want you could say Kyle was the PG but he was pretty bad with the ball earlier in the season.

You will have no argument from me that McLaughlin if healthy would have claimed more minutes sooner because Milton was terrible. That's also part of the problem with McLaughlin is he has problems staying healthy and I say all this being a big McLaughlin fan. If Shake would have played anywhere near what he had previous seasons with the Sixers he would have kept his spot. He was playing legit rotation minutes for years for a playoff team and it looks to me like he was probably playing backup PG minutes on those teams too. Going into the season he was a known commodity also. Shake signed here to be a top option in the rotation at guard (had a decent resume for that role) and probably one reason he signed here over other options was that opportunity, including if he played anywhere near the way he did filling in as a starter with the Sixers...maybe he could end up being a starter someday. Now he is with the Nets who might rehab him and have a decent combo guard for cheap or they cut him loose and move on to someone else.

I think it was pretty clear McLaughlin left the Wolves because he wanted a legit chance to actually play especially after having possibly the best season of his career when healthy. He likely signed with the Kings because that presented the best opportunity once their rookie PG ended up having shoulder surgery. The Wolves probably said they wouldn't promise him anything more than the 3rd PG spot and only a vet min deal which I agree with. McLaughlin probably figured he could do better than that and at this point it looks like he is right with the opportunity he has with the Kings.

Monster wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 5:18 pm What backup PG plays 3 minutes a game? McLaughlin was nowhere near the top backup PG to start the season. I'm pretty sure that a chunk of McLaughlin's minutes he did play was in garbage time. In those 5 games he played before he got hurt he played at most like 10 minutes more than Josh Minott. Was he healthy for the first game of the season? He didn't even play that game. Shake Milton played over 21mpg in that game. I'd guess he probably shared the court a lot early on with Kyle Anderson. If you want you could say Kyle was the PG but he was pretty bad with the ball earlier in the season.

I'm just reducing your quote to your first paragraph since the rest of what you wrote, I don't think we disagree much.

Regarding your first question, I would just point out JMac averaged 11.2 minutes/game last season. Shake averaged 12.9. And while I won't dispute Shake played some PG, my larger point all along was he was not the guy running the offense. Shake averaged 1.3 assists/game during those first few games. Is that a backup PG? The Wolves experimented with a variety of line ups and used other guys as defacto PGs including SloMo, Shake and NAW. When Conley sat out games, they used NAW (not Shake or JMac) as his replacement with the starting unit.

As far as the first few games, I don't put as much stock into that small sample as you do. I think it's possible Finch was still getting a look at everyone and how they would fit. After everything sorted itself back out, JMac averaged 15.7 minutes/game in March and 15.1 minutes/game in April. I feel like the Wolves realized things run better with a true PG and that's why they moved Shake for Monte. And that's why they moved up in the draft. That was my larger point all along.

Carlos Danger wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 6:52 pm

Monster wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 5:18 pm What backup PG plays 3 minutes a game? McLaughlin was nowhere near the top backup PG to start the season. I'm pretty sure that a chunk of McLaughlin's minutes he did play was in garbage time. In those 5 games he played before he got hurt he played at most like 10 minutes more than Josh Minott. Was he healthy for the first game of the season? He didn't even play that game. Shake Milton played over 21mpg in that game. I'd guess he probably shared the court a lot early on with Kyle Anderson. If you want you could say Kyle was the PG but he was pretty bad with the ball earlier in the season.

I'm just reducing your quote to your first paragraph since the rest of what you wrote, I don't think we disagree much.

Regarding your first question, I would just point out JMac averaged 11.2 minutes/game last season. Shake averaged 12.9. And while I won't dispute Shake played some PG, my larger point all along was he was not the guy running the offense. Shake averaged 1.3 assists/game during those first few games. Is that a backup PG? The Wolves experimented with a variety of line ups and used other guys as defacto PGs including SloMo, Shake and NAW. When Conley sat out games, they used NAW (not Shake or JMac) as his replacement with the starting unit.

As far as the first few games, I don't put as much stock into that small sample as you do. I think it's possible Finch was still getting a look at everyone and how they would fit. After everything sorted itself back out, JMac averaged 15.7 minutes/game in March and 15.1 minutes/game in April. I feel like the Wolves realized things run better with a true PG and that's why they moved Shake for Monte. And that's why they moved up in the draft. That was my larger point all along.

Carlos, I don't think anyone would dispute that in hindsight the offense ran better when one or more of Conley/JMac/Morris were on the floor. In fact, many of us were calling for less Milton fairly early on after it was clear he didn't have it. But that absolutely was *not* the plan heading into the season. Did you read the article Tim posted? They clearly stated and followed through on using Shake as their 9th man. Had he actually played like he did in Philly then the Wolves would have probably never had to make the moves they did and JMac would have continued being a 10th or 11th man spot player.

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 7:19 pm Carlos, I don't think anyone would dispute that in hindsight the offense ran better when one or more of Conley/JMac/Morris were on the floor. In fact, many of us were calling for less Milton fairly early on after it was clear he didn't have it. But that absolutely was *not* the plan heading into the season. Did you read the article Tim posted? They clearly stated and followed through on using Shake as their 9th man. Had he actually played like he did in Philly then the Wolves would have probably never had to make the moves they did and JMac would have continued being a 10th or 11th man spot player.

Yes, I looked at the link Tim provided. It was before the season started and there was nothing in there that stated they were bringing in Shake to be PG2. I recall interviews with Finch around that time and my recollection was Shake was brought in to be a scorer (replace Nowell). Yes, they liked that he had some PG versatility. But that's not the same as saying "you are my PG". Shake was/is a shooting guard - not a PG. According to Cleaning the Glass, Shake played PG 30% of the time. So, about 150 minutes total out of his 491 were PG. Jmac played PG 62% of the time or 338 minutes as PG (more than double Shake). Shake was brought in to score - not facilitate. Unfortunately, he did neither.