Okay, I'll do it - Wolves at 76ers GDT

[AussieWolf3]

Keep in mind that a guy like iHart is going to want similar money to what Rudy makes now and he plays even less! He averaged something like 22 MPG in OKC's run to the title last season and has never averaged 30+ MPG.

I guess my hope is that Rudy can actually play a role similar to iHart as a defensive pillar to start quarters but perhaps sits a lot more in close games at crunch time. OKC and NYK had the luxury of sliding Holmgren and KAT respectively to Center while Hartenstein was usually on the bench at the end of games. The problem is that Julius and Naz have proven time and again that they can't play Center defensively. Even KAT is better than those guys at it.

This is why I'd be tempted to just move on from both Julius and Naz this offseason. My theory is that having Jaden play more PF and Joan at C will help our defense more than whatever we lose on offense without Randle and Reid. Plus we need extra $ anyway to re-sign Ayo.

Yeah I noticed that with Hart as well.

To be fair he was only a therotical replacement, more of an archetype as opposed to me saying he's the one I want.

I very much like your idea for a plan with Rudy I think that's great.

I don't know what to do with Naz, and don't want to be too reactive to a prolonged slump. It wasn't that long ago that the evidence was pretty compelling be should start over Julius

I've gone back and forth with Naz too. He's always had really good numbers playing next to Rudy, which is what makes it tempting. But I keep going back to his playoff performances and how he fares in big games against really good defenses. Not good enough.

What I really don't get is that every relevant measurement of Naz as defender is that he's a plus defender, maybe even a good one.

Whether it's DRTG, Darko, EPM, Net Points, defensive win shares, DRAPM, stop%, FG diff... Everyone I can find suggest that the guy is good defender, AND this is a trend that goes back for 3 years.
It's enough evidence that suggest this is more than just a Rudy effect.

I'll be honest, I don't lock in and pay super close attention to him on that end. Which means that I mostly just see the times he fouls somebody.
The reputation is what it is, but why is there such a large gap between that and what the numbers say?

I guess I just want to know what it looks like if he isn't constantly asked to play center

[Q-is-here]

Yeah I noticed that with Hart as well.

To be fair he was only a therotical replacement, more of an archetype as opposed to me saying he's the one I want.

I very much like your idea for a plan with Rudy I think that's great.

I don't know what to do with Naz, and don't want to be too reactive to a prolonged slump. It wasn't that long ago that the evidence was pretty compelling be should start over Julius

I've gone back and forth with Naz too. He's always had really good numbers playing next to Rudy, which is what makes it tempting. But I keep going back to his playoff performances and how he fares in big games against really good defenses. Not good enough.

What I really don't get is that every relevant measurement of Naz as defender is that he's a plus defender, maybe even a good one.

Whether it's DRTG, Darko, EPM, Net Points, defensive win shares, DRAPM, stop%, FG diff... Everyone I can find suggest that the guy is good defender, AND this is a trend that goes back for 3 years.
It's enough evidence that suggest this is more than just a Rudy effect.

I'll be honest, I don't lock in and pay super close attention to him on that end. Which means that I mostly just see the times he fouls somebody.
The reputation is what it is, but why is there such a large gap between that and what the numbers say?

I guess I just want to know what it looks like if he isn't constantly asked to play center

No matter how hard these metrics try, none of them can totally isolate a player's defense from the team around them. Part of it is that Naz has played next to guys like Rudy, SloMo, NAW, and Jaden over the years. Part of it is that he's usually out there when the other team's weakest offensive units are in the game. And another part of it is that he indeed isn't that bad all the time on defense, especially when next to Rudy and he can be a pure PF.

[Coolbreeze44]

I think folks are failing to imagine that dropping Rudy does not mean that this team suddenly looks like the non Rudy minutes of this year full time.

The question is: if you replace Rudy with a better synergistic fit on offense, is that worth dropping a few points above replacement on defense?

Ultimately, I think I'd rather keep the bird in the hand but there are temptations for me to move on because this team so often fails to be more than the sum of it's parts, and I think Rudy bears some of the responsibility for that

Aussie, I'm actually in the camp that nobody on our roster is untouchable, even Ant. So if there was a deal involving Rudy that increased our chances of winning a chip, I would be on board. I don't see Hartenstein though as making us better.

Cool and I might be the only posters here who don't consider even Ant untouchable. But can anyone honestly say they wouldn't trade him for the likes of SGA, Luka, or Wemby? I know, not going to happen...but realistically, those are trades you would have to make. Hoops Hype came out with their player rankings last week...no surprise SGA, Luka and Jokic are 1,2,3. But Ant fans here would be devastated that they rank him 21st...even behind Ju at 19! I'm a homer too, so personally I would rank Ant ahead of several of the 20 HH has ahead of him...like Ju, KAT, Barnes and Sengun. But I continue to think we tend to significantly overvalue Ant here by calling him a top 10 player. He's not...yet.

Yeah FNG, we are the only two who are willing to consider moving Ant, at least that I've heard. If I was GM I would try to move him for Flagg, but I doubt the Mavericks would do it.

[rapsuperstar31]

I think folks are failing to imagine that dropping Rudy does not mean that this team suddenly looks like the non Rudy minutes of this year full time.

The question is: if you replace Rudy with a better synergistic fit on offense, is that worth dropping a few points above replacement on defense?

Ultimately, I think I'd rather keep the bird in the hand but there are temptations for me to move on because this team so often fails to be more than the sum of it's parts, and I think Rudy bears some of the responsibility for that

Aussie, I'm actually in the camp that nobody on our roster is untouchable, even Ant. So if there was a deal involving Rudy that increased our chances of winning a chip, I would be on board. I don't see Hartenstein though as making us better.

Cool and I might be the only posters here who don't consider even Ant untouchable. But can anyone honestly say they wouldn't trade him for the likes of SGA, Luka, or Wemby? I know, not going to happen...but realistically, those are trades you would have to make. Hoops Hype came out with their player rankings last week...no surprise SGA, Luka and Jokic are 1,2,3. But Ant fans here would be devastated that they rank him 21st...even behind Ju at 19! I'm a homer too, so personally I would rank Ant ahead of several of the 20 HH has ahead of him...like Ju, KAT, Barnes and Sengun. But I continue to think we tend to significantly overvalue Ant here by calling him a top 10 player. He's not...yet.

He has some warts, and doesn't get up for every regular season game. What he does in the playoffs and in the big moments against the top teams is better than most players in the league. What did Ju do in the playoffs prior to coming here, what has Senguin done in the playoffs? If you knock off the big dogs in the league when the lights are the brightest, you are one of the big dogs. Yes there are a few trades you could move Ant in, no one is keeping him out of a Wemby trade. Tim Connelly already turned down a Luka for Ant trade. I don't know if Ant is ever going to be a top 5 leader in the league, but simply making a max contract doesn't make you a leader. OKC has three max contract players, we only have one. Replace 24 year old Ant for 22 year old Ant on that team 2 years ago, and we make the finals, but probably lose to Boston. The team is not built perfectly around him. Much like Lakers and Dallas fans kept complaining the teams aren't built around Luka right. Detroit, OKC, and San Antonio are built perfectly around Cade, Wemby, and Shai. Denver finally has built a great team around Joker. Trading for Dlo really screwed us. San Antonio gets Wemby, than gets Castle and Harper the next two seasons to grab a good young piece next to their superstar. We draft Ant, and we lose the draft pick the next season (a player that could have been that final young piece) because of the DLo trade, and than we make the playoffs the next season and trade our pick for Rudy the next year. 20 year old Ant got us into the playoffs his 2nd full season, 23 year old SGA led his team to one of the worst records in the league, which resulted in them getting Chet and JDub from the Clippers pick in the same draft and transform that team.

[TheFuture]

Yeah I noticed that with Hart as well.

To be fair he was only a therotical replacement, more of an archetype as opposed to me saying he's the one I want.

I very much like your idea for a plan with Rudy I think that's great.

I don't know what to do with Naz, and don't want to be too reactive to a prolonged slump. It wasn't that long ago that the evidence was pretty compelling be should start over Julius

I've gone back and forth with Naz too. He's always had really good numbers playing next to Rudy, which is what makes it tempting. But I keep going back to his playoff performances and how he fares in big games against really good defenses. Not good enough.

What I really don't get is that every relevant measurement of Naz as defender is that he's a plus defender, maybe even a good one.

Whether it's DRTG, Darko, EPM, Net Points, defensive win shares, DRAPM, stop%, FG diff... Everyone I can find suggest that the guy is good defender, AND this is a trend that goes back for 3 years.
It's enough evidence that suggest this is more than just a Rudy effect.

I'll be honest, I don't lock in and pay super close attention to him on that end. Which means that I mostly just see the times he fouls somebody.
The reputation is what it is, but why is there such a large gap between that and what the numbers say?

I guess I just want to know what it looks like if he isn't constantly asked to play center

You actually definitely did say that you would take IHart and picks in exchange for Rudy. That is a dumb idea

The team needs an actual backup center for when Rudy has to sit. That would be a player like IHart. The team cannot absorb the contract that he will want.

Naz and Randle are not centers. You're better off tossing SloMo there.

You're posting regular season vs post-season advanced stats about Rudy. I hope you can understand that this doesn't matter if you don't make it.

Is he targeted, yes. Opposing teams want him off the floor. Does he make the game easier for everyone else? Yes. He controls the defense and sets screens that allows everybody else to flourish.

Anybody who has watched Naz "attempt" to defend knows he is terrible and a complete liability on that end. If he isn't shooting great; he provides nothing. I'd be hard pressed to find anybody who honestly thinks Naz should start over Randle.

[AussieWolf3]

I've gone back and forth with Naz too. He's always had really good numbers playing next to Rudy, which is what makes it tempting. But I keep going back to his playoff performances and how he fares in big games against really good defenses. Not good enough.

What I really don't get is that every relevant measurement of Naz as defender is that he's a plus defender, maybe even a good one.

Whether it's DRTG, Darko, EPM, Net Points, defensive win shares, DRAPM, stop%, FG diff... Everyone I can find suggest that the guy is good defender, AND this is a trend that goes back for 3 years.
It's enough evidence that suggest this is more than just a Rudy effect.

I'll be honest, I don't lock in and pay super close attention to him on that end. Which means that I mostly just see the times he fouls somebody.
The reputation is what it is, but why is there such a large gap between that and what the numbers say?

I guess I just want to know what it looks like if he isn't constantly asked to play center

You actually definitely did say that you would take IHart and picks in exchange for Rudy. That is a dumb idea

The team needs an actual backup center for when Rudy has to sit. That would be a player like IHart. The team cannot absorb the contract that he will want.

Naz and Randle are not centers. You're better off tossing SloMo there.

You're posting regular season vs post-season advanced stats about Rudy. I hope you can understand that this doesn't matter if you don't make it.

Is he targeted, yes. Opposing teams want him off the floor. Does he make the game easier for everyone else? Yes. He controls the defense and sets screens that allows everybody else to flourish.

Anybody who has watched Naz "attempt" to defend knows he is terrible and a complete liability on that end. If he isn't shooting great; he provides nothing. I'd be hard pressed to find anybody who honestly thinks Naz should start over Randle.

Yes.... The starting center on the defending champs and current best team this season is actually, secretly a backup center...

Yes I did say that, hypothetically I would swap Rudy for IHart and additional assets ---as in whatever it is you can get in a Rudy trade, which would be pieces of real value, I just don't know exactly what that would be.

Not everything is zero sum, in a fact most things aren't, so I don't understand why you're acting as if Im suggesting anything as such

Rudy is a good player, and extremely valuable to this team
Rudy is 34 years old and on a fairly expensive contract for 2 more years.
IHart is 28
IHart plus picks or maybe a Herb Jones level player is almost certainly better for the team's future outlook --- "the 2nd timeline"

Here's the thing.... You cannot guarantee this hypothetical. Unless there is something I don't understand --- likely--- I don't believe there is really any realistic way you can trade Rudy while also being certain you can sign IHart.

And no I don't agree that Naz is a complete liability on defense. When he isn't asked to play out of position he is a perfectly suitable team defender and perhaps even a very good help side one. What hasn't been the case, consistently, over the last 2 years is that he can be a reliable bucket getter. Despite his obvious skills with the ball in his hands, and the fact the he is a movement shooter stretch big; it hasn't translated to him actually providing a big boost to the offense in the aggregate. He turns it over too much, is too streaky of a shooter, and doesn't convert enough down low.

So I don't know what the plan should be with him. Maybe he'd be able to tap into his upside if he isn't always playing out of position. It sure would be nice if he could actually be a starting PF at his contract, but.... hard to buy that

[Wolvesfan21]

If you rank Ant 21st overall and that is your real ranking you are just a clown show or clickbait. 21st in the regular season? Meh, but thats still nonsense as Ant leads the league in clutch scoring performance, but considering how much better he is in the playoffs and the leading catalyst to two straight WCF's appearances. Those are the games that really matter. Reality is that players are remembered for what they do in the playoffs by most.

[TheFuture]

What I really don't get is that every relevant measurement of Naz as defender is that he's a plus defender, maybe even a good one.

Whether it's DRTG, Darko, EPM, Net Points, defensive win shares, DRAPM, stop%, FG diff... Everyone I can find suggest that the guy is good defender, AND this is a trend that goes back for 3 years.
It's enough evidence that suggest this is more than just a Rudy effect.

I'll be honest, I don't lock in and pay super close attention to him on that end. Which means that I mostly just see the times he fouls somebody.
The reputation is what it is, but why is there such a large gap between that and what the numbers say?

I guess I just want to know what it looks like if he isn't constantly asked to play center

You actually definitely did say that you would take IHart and picks in exchange for Rudy. That is a dumb idea

The team needs an actual backup center for when Rudy has to sit. That would be a player like IHart. The team cannot absorb the contract that he will want.

Naz and Randle are not centers. You're better off tossing SloMo there.

You're posting regular season vs post-season advanced stats about Rudy. I hope you can understand that this doesn't matter if you don't make it.

Is he targeted, yes. Opposing teams want him off the floor. Does he make the game easier for everyone else? Yes. He controls the defense and sets screens that allows everybody else to flourish.

Anybody who has watched Naz "attempt" to defend knows he is terrible and a complete liability on that end. If he isn't shooting great; he provides nothing. I'd be hard pressed to find anybody who honestly thinks Naz should start over Randle.

Yes.... The starting center on the defending champs and current best team this season is actually, secretly a backup center...

Yes I did say that, hypothetically I would swap Rudy for IHart and additional assets ---as in whatever it is you can get in a Rudy trade, which would be pieces of real value, I just don't know exactly what that would be.

Not everything is zero sum, in a fact most things aren't, so I don't understand why you're acting as if Im suggesting anything as such

Rudy is a good player, and extremely valuable to this team
Rudy is 34 years old and on a fairly expensive contract for 2 more years.
IHart is 28
IHart plus picks or maybe a Herb Jones level player is almost certainly better for the team's future outlook --- "the 2nd timeline"

Here's the thing.... You cannot guarantee this hypothetical. Unless there is something I don't understand --- likely--- I don't believe there is really any realistic way you can trade Rudy while also being certain you can sign IHart.

And no I don't agree that Naz is a complete liability on defense. When he isn't asked to play out of position he is a perfectly suitable team defender and perhaps even a very good help side one. What hasn't been the case, consistently, over the last 2 years is that he can be a reliable bucket getter. Despite his obvious skills with the ball in his hands, and the fact the he is a movement shooter stretch big; it hasn't translated to him actually providing a big boost to the offense in the aggregate. He turns it over too much, is too streaky of a shooter, and doesn't convert enough down low.

So I don't know what the plan should be with him. Maybe he'd be able to tap into his upside if he isn't always playing out of position. It sure would be nice if he could actually be a starting PF at his contract, but.... hard to buy that

If you think IHart and picks is remotely equal to Rudy for this team RS or PS, then you just are dumb. No need for further discussion.

[AussieWolf3]

You actually definitely did say that you would take IHart and picks in exchange for Rudy. That is a dumb idea

The team needs an actual backup center for when Rudy has to sit. That would be a player like IHart. The team cannot absorb the contract that he will want.

Naz and Randle are not centers. You're better off tossing SloMo there.

You're posting regular season vs post-season advanced stats about Rudy. I hope you can understand that this doesn't matter if you don't make it.

Is he targeted, yes. Opposing teams want him off the floor. Does he make the game easier for everyone else? Yes. He controls the defense and sets screens that allows everybody else to flourish.

Anybody who has watched Naz "attempt" to defend knows he is terrible and a complete liability on that end. If he isn't shooting great; he provides nothing. I'd be hard pressed to find anybody who honestly thinks Naz should start over Randle.

Yes.... The starting center on the defending champs and current best team this season is actually, secretly a backup center...

Yes I did say that, hypothetically I would swap Rudy for IHart and additional assets ---as in whatever it is you can get in a Rudy trade, which would be pieces of real value, I just don't know exactly what that would be.

Not everything is zero sum, in a fact most things aren't, so I don't understand why you're acting as if Im suggesting anything as such

Rudy is a good player, and extremely valuable to this team
Rudy is 34 years old and on a fairly expensive contract for 2 more years.
IHart is 28
IHart plus picks or maybe a Herb Jones level player is almost certainly better for the team's future outlook --- "the 2nd timeline"

Here's the thing.... You cannot guarantee this hypothetical. Unless there is something I don't understand --- likely--- I don't believe there is really any realistic way you can trade Rudy while also being certain you can sign IHart.

And no I don't agree that Naz is a complete liability on defense. When he isn't asked to play out of position he is a perfectly suitable team defender and perhaps even a very good help side one. What hasn't been the case, consistently, over the last 2 years is that he can be a reliable bucket getter. Despite his obvious skills with the ball in his hands, and the fact the he is a movement shooter stretch big; it hasn't translated to him actually providing a big boost to the offense in the aggregate. He turns it over too much, is too streaky of a shooter, and doesn't convert enough down low.

So I don't know what the plan should be with him. Maybe he'd be able to tap into his upside if he isn't always playing out of position. It sure would be nice if he could actually be a starting PF at his contract, but.... hard to buy that

If you think IHart and picks is remotely equal to Rudy for this team RS or PS, then you just are dumb. No need for further discussion.

Nice! Quality stuff. No more argument left to make so you flail about and insult me.

I'm sorry you weren't or aren't able to continue this discussion cause I thought it was very interesting

[TheFuture]

Yes.... The starting center on the defending champs and current best team this season is actually, secretly a backup center...

Yes I did say that, hypothetically I would swap Rudy for IHart and additional assets ---as in whatever it is you can get in a Rudy trade, which would be pieces of real value, I just don't know exactly what that would be.

Not everything is zero sum, in a fact most things aren't, so I don't understand why you're acting as if Im suggesting anything as such

Rudy is a good player, and extremely valuable to this team
Rudy is 34 years old and on a fairly expensive contract for 2 more years.
IHart is 28
IHart plus picks or maybe a Herb Jones level player is almost certainly better for the team's future outlook --- "the 2nd timeline"

Here's the thing.... You cannot guarantee this hypothetical. Unless there is something I don't understand --- likely--- I don't believe there is really any realistic way you can trade Rudy while also being certain you can sign IHart.

And no I don't agree that Naz is a complete liability on defense. When he isn't asked to play out of position he is a perfectly suitable team defender and perhaps even a very good help side one. What hasn't been the case, consistently, over the last 2 years is that he can be a reliable bucket getter. Despite his obvious skills with the ball in his hands, and the fact the he is a movement shooter stretch big; it hasn't translated to him actually providing a big boost to the offense in the aggregate. He turns it over too much, is too streaky of a shooter, and doesn't convert enough down low.

So I don't know what the plan should be with him. Maybe he'd be able to tap into his upside if he isn't always playing out of position. It sure would be nice if he could actually be a starting PF at his contract, but.... hard to buy that

If you think IHart and picks is remotely equal to Rudy for this team RS or PS, then you just are dumb. No need for further discussion.

Nice! Quality stuff. No more argument left to make so you flail about and insult me.

I'm sorry you weren't or aren't able to continue this discussion cause I thought it was very interesting

Yes, I did insult you. It was deserved. I have no more to say because your insight is ill-advised. You could bring in 2 or 3 players for the money spent on Rudy and they wouldn't be as important as he is to this team.

You should be talking about moving off of Naz..