Minnesota Sports Forum

TeamRicky wrote:

monsterpile wrote:We have our first round pick for next year earliest the Payne pick can be conveyed is 2018 because this was a year that we could have not had our first round pick Because of the Wes trade.

Personally I think Most vet coaches tend to play guys that can play. If you can't play or play the way they want you won't get in much. It's not quite that simple but the idea that some vet coaches just don't play rookies or young guys seems like a way oversimplification and not really true.

Monster, I believe we lose our pick next year if we finish outside the lottery. The reports of the trade all said the pick was available beginning 2017 and we didn't convey our 1st round pick this year so I don't see any reason the pick gets pushed into 2018. I have to believe our pick is subject to loss next year unless you can show me a reputable source that says otherwise.

I think why you are getting 2017 is at the time of the trade it was still possible the Wolves would have given up the pick in 2015 so that's 2 years later for the pick being available in 2017.

From basketball insiders:

2018 -- Owe first-round pick (lottery protected through 2020, otherwise converts to 2020 and 2021 second-rounders) to Atlanta Hawks (Adreian Payne). Pick won't be conveyed until two years after Minnesota's obligation to Phoenix Suns is satisfied.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/minnesota-timberwolves-team-salary/

monsterpile wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:

monsterpile wrote:We have our first round pick for next year earliest the Payne pick can be conveyed is 2018 because this was a year that we could have not had our first round pick Because of the Wes trade.

Personally I think Most vet coaches tend to play guys that can play. If you can't play or play the way they want you won't get in much. It's not quite that simple but the idea that some vet coaches just don't play rookies or young guys seems like a way oversimplification and not really true.

Monster, I believe we lose our pick next year if we finish outside the lottery. The reports of the trade all said the pick was available beginning 2017 and we didn't convey our 1st round pick this year so I don't see any reason the pick gets pushed into 2018. I have to believe our pick is subject to loss next year unless you can show me a reputable source that says otherwise.

I think why you are getting 2017 is at the time of the trade it was still possible the Wolves would have given up the pick in 2015 so that's 2 years later for the pick being available in 2017.

From basketball insiders:

2018 -- Owe first-round pick (lottery protected through 2020, otherwise converts to 2020 and 2021 second-rounders) to Atlanta Hawks (Adreian Payne). Pick won't be conveyed until two years after Minnesota's obligation to Phoenix Suns is satisfied.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/minnesota-timberwolves-team-salary/

Thanks. That's good news if we can keep our pick next year.

Would any of you trade two second rounders for Adreian Payne? That's best-case scenario and I still think it'd be an awful trade. Flip really fucked up on that one.

Camden0916 wrote:Would any of you trade two second rounders for Adreian Payne? That's best-case scenario and I still think it'd be an awful trade. Flip really fucked up on that one.

It was a bad trade we all know it. Two 2nd rounders to dump Wes and be able to sign AK was bad enough. With Payne the highest we may be able to hope for is:

A. He turns into a decent deep bench player that would look good if he was a 2nd round pick. We are likely to have a new group running things in a few weeks but I think it was clear he wasn't valued very highly by Sam and his staff and probably the organization based on his playing time. Maybe whoever takes over can work some miracle to make him worth something. Seems doubtful based on what we have seen. It's just as likely they will be willing to just dump the guy which leads me into the next option.

B. Some team is dumb enough to trade a 2nd rounder or other similar salaried youngish player (one man's trash for another um slightly more appealing trash?) for Payne. Honestly I think no matter who is running things unless it's Tom Izzo (not happening) Payne should be worried about his long term future as an NBA player and along with working on his game he could be taking some language classes to be ready to make some money in Europe which is far from a bad gig.

TeamRicky wrote:The Holiday trade was not a good trade for the Pelicans. They gave up three picks that ended up being (Noel, MCW and Jackson) for an injured point guard. Trading lottery picks for players is usually a losing proposition. Every time the Wolves have done this (Webster, Budinger, Payne) we got the short end of the stick and the one time we traded veterans for a pick, we came out ahead (Miller/Foye for pick that got us Rubio). If I thought Thibs would make a similar bonehead move, I'd rather go after a younger guy like Ollie, Walton or Atkinson who won't feel the same pressure to mortgage our future. Winning organizations keep their draft picks. Just look at San Antonio.

To be fair I can pick and choose examples The Celtics traded for ray Allen and kg using lottery picks and they won a championship off of it

kekgeek1 wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:The Holiday trade was not a good trade for the Pelicans. They gave up three picks that ended up being (Noel, MCW and Jackson) for an injured point guard. Trading lottery picks for players is usually a losing proposition. Every time the Wolves have done this (Webster, Budinger, Payne) we got the short end of the stick and the one time we traded veterans for a pick, we came out ahead (Miller/Foye for pick that got us Rubio). If I thought Thibs would make a similar bonehead move, I'd rather go after a younger guy like Ollie, Walton or Atkinson who won't feel the same pressure to mortgage our future. Winning organizations keep their draft picks. Just look at San Antonio.

To be fair I can pick and choose examples The Celtics traded for ray Allen and kg using lottery picks and they won a championship off of it

Also to be fair, San Antonio is a terrible example because they haven't had a pick inside the top 10 in 20 years. Bud and Webster were both late lottery pick trades as well. We're talking about a top 5 pick in this case. Say what you want about the Holiday injuries, but the guy is still just 25 and he played 65 games this year averaging 16/6 as a bench player for 2/3rds the year. Nerlens only played 67 games this year and averaged 11/8 and MCW and Jackson aren't even on the team anymore so it's not like Philly made out like bandits. If we could land a borderline all-star for this pick I think you do it because I don't see anyone sniffing an all-star game out of the guys who will be available. You can't GM a team out of fear of what's happened in the past. You have to trust whoever we bring in to do their due diligence and get the best player for this team.

khans2k5 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:The Holiday trade was not a good trade for the Pelicans. They gave up three picks that ended up being (Noel, MCW and Jackson) for an injured point guard. Trading lottery picks for players is usually a losing proposition. Every time the Wolves have done this (Webster, Budinger, Payne) we got the short end of the stick and the one time we traded veterans for a pick, we came out ahead (Miller/Foye for pick that got us Rubio). If I thought Thibs would make a similar bonehead move, I'd rather go after a younger guy like Ollie, Walton or Atkinson who won't feel the same pressure to mortgage our future. Winning organizations keep their draft picks. Just look at San Antonio.

To be fair I can pick and choose examples The Celtics traded for ray Allen and kg using lottery picks and they won a championship off of it

Also to be fair, San Antonio is a terrible example because they haven't had a pick inside the top 10 in 20 years. Bud and Webster were both late lottery pick trades as well. We're talking about a top 5 pick in this case. Say what you want about the Holiday injuries, but the guy is still just 25 and he played 65 games this year averaging 16/6 as a bench player for 2/3rds the year. Nerlens only played 67 games this year and averaged 11/8 and MCW and Jackson aren't even on the team anymore so it's not like Philly made out like bandits. If we could land a borderline all-star for this pick I think you do it because I don't see anyone sniffing an all-star game out of the guys who will be available. You can't GM a team out of fear of what's happened in the past. You have to trust whoever we bring in to do their due diligence and get the best player for this team.

khan, Philly swapped MCW for the Lakers top pick with limited protection. Here's the details on the pick:
The Lakers pick the Sixers will be receiving is protected for selections 1-3 in 2016 and 1-3 in 2017 and unprotected in 2018, per RealGM.com. If the Lakers end up with the 4th pick, Sixers get it. Plus they have Noel. Holiday has been injured his first two years in New Orleans. Pelicans got the short end of the stick and it isn't even close.

TeamRicky wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:The Holiday trade was not a good trade for the Pelicans. They gave up three picks that ended up being (Noel, MCW and Jackson) for an injured point guard. Trading lottery picks for players is usually a losing proposition. Every time the Wolves have done this (Webster, Budinger, Payne) we got the short end of the stick and the one time we traded veterans for a pick, we came out ahead (Miller/Foye for pick that got us Rubio). If I thought Thibs would make a similar bonehead move, I'd rather go after a younger guy like Ollie, Walton or Atkinson who won't feel the same pressure to mortgage our future. Winning organizations keep their draft picks. Just look at San Antonio.

To be fair I can pick and choose examples The Celtics traded for ray Allen and kg using lottery picks and they won a championship off of it

Also to be fair, San Antonio is a terrible example because they haven't had a pick inside the top 10 in 20 years. Bud and Webster were both late lottery pick trades as well. We're talking about a top 5 pick in this case. Say what you want about the Holiday injuries, but the guy is still just 25 and he played 65 games this year averaging 16/6 as a bench player for 2/3rds the year. Nerlens only played 67 games this year and averaged 11/8 and MCW and Jackson aren't even on the team anymore so it's not like Philly made out like bandits. If we could land a borderline all-star for this pick I think you do it because I don't see anyone sniffing an all-star game out of the guys who will be available. You can't GM a team out of fear of what's happened in the past. You have to trust whoever we bring in to do their due diligence and get the best player for this team.

khan, Philly swapped MCW for the Lakers top pick with limited protection. Here's the details on the pick:
The Lakers pick the Sixers will be receiving is protected for selections 1-3 in 2016 and 1-3 in 2017 and unprotected in 2018, per RealGM.com. If the Lakers end up with the 4th pick, Sixers get it. Plus they have Noel. Holiday has been injured his first two years in New Orleans. Pelicans got the short end of the stick and it isn't even close.

That's not how evaluating trades works. You don't get to say the return they got for MCW counts in the Holiday trade. That's a separate trade evaluated on it's own. What they got for Holiday was Noel, MCW and Jackson. Two of those guys aren't on their team anymore and Noel and Holliday have played almost the same amount of games in the last 3 years. It wasn't the steal you make it out to be and Holiday is going to be a good player for the Pelicans moving forward. If we traded 2 for Favors the Jazz wouldn't get to say they got Simmons for D Will. Those are two separate trades.

Let's break down the Holiday trade for 2 picks as it was when it happened and go from there.

Holiday was coming off and all star season where he averaged nearly 18-9 shooting the ball plenty well enough from 3 and had a very good defensive reputation. He had been pretty healthy missing a few games in his first few season but nothing too scary. Plus he was still 22 or so with plenty of potential still. So that's a pretty damn nice player to be getting. Would people be as upset about that trade of he was healthy? Hmm...

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/13162199/philadelphia-76ers-paid-new-orleans-pelicans-3-million-jrue-holiday-injury

Now for Philly they knew they were getting Noel. That was a pretty good deal considering he may have been the most talented player in the draft. The also got a future first rounder. What made the trade look even better was using another pick later and getting MCW (who I really liked) to replace Holiday. So in the deal they traded away a really good PG got maybe the best talent in the draft and replaced their PG with a young player and added a future pick. Not bad for a team looking to the future.

Now let's keep going here. The next draft they have #10 from this trade and leverage that with Orlando and move down 2 spots taking Saric and having Orando remove a future selection they owed them in the Bynum trade. (Wait I thought Hinkie was a moron right?)

Obviously looking at the deal now it's obvious that the deal heavily favors the Sixers. Some of that was additional savy by the Sixers to leverage their assets after the trade. what about not disclosing everything with Holiday's injury? I don't understand how that's not a bigger deal but Inam not exactly sure how all these workings happen. The Wolves and the Blazers had an issue with Webster's medical stuff and finally resolved it but we don't know the resolution. It feels like sole draft compensation should be involved not just money but that's just me.

khans2k5 wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:The Holiday trade was not a good trade for the Pelicans. They gave up three picks that ended up being (Noel, MCW and Jackson) for an injured point guard. Trading lottery picks for players is usually a losing proposition. Every time the Wolves have done this (Webster, Budinger, Payne) we got the short end of the stick and the one time we traded veterans for a pick, we came out ahead (Miller/Foye for pick that got us Rubio). If I thought Thibs would make a similar bonehead move, I'd rather go after a younger guy like Ollie, Walton or Atkinson who won't feel the same pressure to mortgage our future. Winning organizations keep their draft picks. Just look at San Antonio.

To be fair I can pick and choose examples The Celtics traded for ray Allen and kg using lottery picks and they won a championship off of it

Also to be fair, San Antonio is a terrible example because they haven't had a pick inside the top 10 in 20 years. Bud and Webster were both late lottery pick trades as well. We're talking about a top 5 pick in this case. Say what you want about the Holiday injuries, but the guy is still just 25 and he played 65 games this year averaging 16/6 as a bench player for 2/3rds the year. Nerlens only played 67 games this year and averaged 11/8 and MCW and Jackson aren't even on the team anymore so it's not like Philly made out like bandits. If we could land a borderline all-star for this pick I think you do it because I don't see anyone sniffing an all-star game out of the guys who will be available. You can't GM a team out of fear of what's happened in the past. You have to trust whoever we bring in to do their due diligence and get the best player for this team.

khan, Philly swapped MCW for the Lakers top pick with limited protection. Here's the details on the pick:
The Lakers pick the Sixers will be receiving is protected for selections 1-3 in 2016 and 1-3 in 2017 and unprotected in 2018, per RealGM.com. If the Lakers end up with the 4th pick, Sixers get it. Plus they have Noel. Holiday has been injured his first two years in New Orleans. Pelicans got the short end of the stick and it isn't even close.

That's not how evaluating trades works. You don't get to say the return they got for MCW counts in the Holiday trade. That's a separate trade evaluated on it's own. What they got for Holiday was Noel, MCW and Jackson. Two of those guys aren't on their team anymore and Noel and Holliday have played almost the same amount of games in the last 3 years. It wasn't the steal you make it out to be and Holiday is going to be a good player for the Pelicans moving forward. If we traded 2 for Favors the Jazz wouldn't get to say they got Simmons for D Will. Those are two separate trades.

I disagree. This kind of evaluation takes place all the time and on this board too. The MCW asset was turned into the Lakers pick and if you ignore that, then I think your analysis is very flawed. If you want to think the Holiday trade was a good one for the Pelicans, that's your prerogative, but I strongly disagree and would think most others would too.