Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:

thedoper wrote:https://kstp.com/news/scoop-podcast-episode-182-wolves-owner-glen-taylor-jimmy-butler-derrick-rose-historic-game/5130941/

I know this was probably already discussed but I'm listening to Doogie's interview with Glen. I found it super interesting that he is addressing Thibs as "coach" and not president, etc. I think he looks at his announcement that Tom should focus on coaching as a bit of a reorganizing of roles whether that legally happened. Sounds like Glen is working for a trade hard and it seems like there are people saying Glen wants Gorgui included and that is a stipulation. I'm not surprised that the financials are going to ultimately lead this decision now that Glen is taking control.

Glen has always referred to Thibs as "coach". It's how Layden has always referred to Thibs as well. In that interview Glen also Mentioned patience like 17 times so... I came away from listening to it as it could be a while but that was me.

Thanks for pointing that out. Wasn't aware of that nuance. Yeah Glen seems to have a clear picture of what he wants or expects for Jimmy. Ultimately I want high value too but the dysfunction seems to be so insane that it's making me feel the pressure. I'm surprised that Glen stays so calm and am not sure if I should be reading it as a positive or negative. Based on the history of his tenure I lean negative.

thedoper wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

thedoper wrote:https://kstp.com/news/scoop-podcast-episode-182-wolves-owner-glen-taylor-jimmy-butler-derrick-rose-historic-game/5130941/

I know this was probably already discussed but I'm listening to Doogie's interview with Glen. I found it super interesting that he is addressing Thibs as "coach" and not president, etc. I think he looks at his announcement that Tom should focus on coaching as a bit of a reorganizing of roles whether that legally happened. Sounds like Glen is working for a trade hard and it seems like there are people saying Glen wants Gorgui included and that is a stipulation. I'm not surprised that the financials are going to ultimately lead this decision now that Glen is taking control.

Glen has always referred to Thibs as "coach". It's how Layden has always referred to Thibs as well. In that interview Glen also Mentioned patience like 17 times so... I came away from listening to it as it could be a while but that was me.

Thanks for pointing that out. Wasn't aware of that nuance. Yeah Glen seems to have a clear picture of what he wants or expects for Jimmy. Ultimately I want high value too but the dysfunction seems to be so insane that it's making me feel the pressure. I'm surprised that Glen stays so calm and am not sure if I should be reading it as a positive or negative. Based on the history of his tenure I lean negative.

I know I'm an optimist and all that and there is some level of dysfunction or whatever you want to term the various stuff around this team and organization BUT this team is 4-6 and as it was pointed out on a Miami podcast Jon K was on Miami has a worse record. The vaunted Jazz are 4-5. Rockets??? People are expecting things to go bad and rightly so. It hasn't gone great but this team hasn't completely gone of the rails and it's had some legit injuries to deal with aside from Butler's playing or not playing and how you view that. On the Miami podcast the Miami guys thought the Butler situation may have had a negative effect on the Heat with all the rumors. I don't think the Wolves are in a spot where they HAVE to do anything at this point. A few days or a couple weeks from now it could change depending on a few variables like losing a bunch of games or Butler sitting out 3 games in a row or whatever. That's how I view it. As much as Glen absolutely doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt he probably does know more about how things actually are than we do and he has spoken directly with Jimmy.

If Glen is insisting on including dieng in a jimmy trade. Then a straight trade with miami is the most realistic one. We will not be able to find a 3rd team to take on dieng's 3 years.

jimmy/dieng/cj for richardson/bam/waiters/james johnson and miami 2019 1st.

Basically the rumored deal but we just add the dieng for johnson swap. Bam takes dieng place as the backup center. James Johnson makes the same as dieng but his 3rd year is team option so we get off the contract a year earlier. He is also a jack of all trades modern 4.

I doubt Miami has any interest in trading Richardson or Adebayo for Butler at this point. Richardson had another terrific game tonight as did Adebayo. Also, Whiteside was to tonight with a knee injury. The Heat are not going to trade either one for Butler. So that's one less team interested in Butler.

Watching Okogie, I'd love to see him teamed up with J. Richardson with KAT in our starting lineup. But that's not going to happen.

Some mildly interesting stuff from Marc Stein here. I included the most interesting quotes of you click the link you will need to scroll down quite a ways.

https://static.nytimes.com/email-content/MSB_sample.html?module=newsletterconfirmationemail&version=regi&contentId=MSB&eventName=readlatestnewsletter&region=copy&emc=confirmregi_MSB_20181106&nl=MSB

"Q: Do you really think that the Timberwolves wouldn't trade Jimmy Butler to Houston if the Rockets gave them the best deal? -- Alex Rankin (Iowa Colony, Texas)

STEIN: Alex is undoubtedly referring to one of my Corner Three answers from last week, when I wrote that the Minnesota owner Glen Taylor and Wolves Coach Tom Thibodeau are in strong agreement about not wanting to trade Butler to Houston.

That sentiment remains valid and is unlikely to change. Neither Taylor nor Thibodeau wants to be responsible for potentially elevating the Rockets to superpower status by handing Butler to a team that already boasts James Harden and Chris Paul.

Yet it must be stressed that that is merely Minnesota's very strong preference. The Wolves know they have to trade Butler eventually, because they'll lose him for nothing in free agency if they keep him beyond the Feb. 7 trade deadline. So they can only be so choosy.

The Wolves, in short, want to trade Butler pretty much anywhere but Houston. But if the Rockets' offer between now and then is indeed the best offer that surfaces, Minnesota would be foolish to just dismiss it.

Had the Rockets included either Eric Gordon or P.J. Tucker along with those four future first-round picks in their most recent offer, we might have already seen a deal. But Houston is clearly trying to make this trade happen without giving up either one of those players."


"Josh Richardson has been the lone bright spot in Miami's raggedy start, establishing a new career high in scoring twice last week by posting 30-point games against Sacramento (31) and Atlanta (32). That's the same Richardson, of course, who was offered to Minnesota -- along with a future first-round pick -- in multiple Jimmy Butler trade proposals. The Wolves continue to hold out for more."

Any Butler deal has to include Thibs not being with the team as soon as a trade is completed.

You cant bring in fresh faces, only to have thibs destroy it. We all see what thibs is doing to the morale of the team and how his systems dont seem to work. If we do get Richardson, I have no doubt that Thibs will turn him into a high pnr iso player who takes mid range shots.

Worst case scenario of this whole thing is Butler gets hurt and the Wolves get nothing including the unlikely sign an trade type dealinthe offseason.

IF that were to happen what would be the best case scenario for the Wolves as far as salary space to add a player?

Teague opts our or is traded in a deal that no salary comes back. I think either of those things are certainly possible. Likely? Maybe not but I think there is a pretty good chance that if they wanted to move Teague someone would take him for nothing.

Patton's money is off the books. It's not a significant amount as you have a charge for each roster spot up to either 13 or 14 but it's still a bit of money.

Whether Towns meets the criteria for a larger contract and how much more money is it? If somehow he gets edged out for the all NBA team that would give the Wolves some more money and we at least have some clarity there.

The bottom line is that if all the best stuff happens the Wolves would have based on my spreadsheet around 20 million in cap space to spend on a free agent and then they also could use some exceptions to add other players. That includes Tyus 7 million cap hold and there is some variance because we don't know what draft pick we will have. What could around 20 million get you? There will be a lot of money out there but there are also some interesting players at different price points and part of their careers that will be FAs...or maybe in trades.

I get why FA isn't enticing and the best case scenario of having money available is adittingly a bit rosy but I also think I can see the thinking of being patient waiting for the best deal possible Butler deal makes some sense also. Of course if push comes to shove for various reasons a deal could get accepted that's no better than the reported deals we have heard about.

monsterpile wrote:Worst case scenario of this whole thing is Butler gets hurt and the Wolves get nothing including the unlikely sign an trade type dealinthe offseason.

IF that were to happen what would be the best case scenario for the Wolves as far as salary space to add a player?

Teague opts our or is traded in a deal that no salary comes back. I think either of those things are certainly possible. Likely? Maybe not but I think there is a pretty good chance that if they wanted to move Teague someone would take him for nothing.

Patton's money is off the books. It's not a significant amount as you have a charge for each roster spot up to either 13 or 14 but it's still a bit of money.

Whether Towns meets the criteria for a larger contract and how much more money is it? If somehow he gets edged out for the all NBA team that would give the Wolves some more money and we at least have some clarity there.

The bottom line is that if all the best stuff happens the Wolves would have based on my spreadsheet around 20 million in cap space to spend on a free agent and then they also could use some exceptions to add other players. That includes Tyus 7 million cap hold and there is some variance because we don't know what draft pick we will have. What could around 20 million get you? There will be a lot of money out there but there are also some interesting players at different price points and part of their careers that will be FAs...or maybe in trades.

I get why FA isn't enticing and the best case scenario of having money available is adittingly a bit rosy but I also think I can see the thinking of being patient waiting for the best deal possible Butler deal makes some sense also. Of course if push comes to shove for various reasons a deal could get accepted that's no better than the reported deals we have heard about.

That's a long, highly uncertain road to cap space. The only teams that could take Teague in a trade without giving us matching salary in return would be the few way under the cap and not interested in saving that space for anyone else. I think that is super highly unlikely. I think it's just as unlikely he opts out and gives up a sure $19 million for some longer term deal that might get him that amount over a period of years. And even if we can shed his salary completely, we'd still be $7 million over the cap with cap holds. So to get meaningful cap room, we'd have to renounce all of our cap holds on Tyus, Gibson, Tolliver, Rose, etc. That would leave us something close to the space you're contemplating, but we'd have at least 9 roster spots to fill. I'll add that this is MN and we'd be a very uncertain bet for top free agents next summer even if we were in an ideal climate/market given our personnel, management and ownership situations. Free agency simply isn't an answer for a mid-market franchise like ours, especially one that doesn't have the success and reputation of an organization like the Spurs. I find letting Butler walk as a FA a totally unacceptable result.

lip- this is why this franchise needs to embrace having to focus on player development. Until they care about that aspect of hoops, they're never gonna have cheap, pleasant surprises which for this team are vital to building a team.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:Worst case scenario of this whole thing is Butler gets hurt and the Wolves get nothing including the unlikely sign an trade type dealinthe offseason.

IF that were to happen what would be the best case scenario for the Wolves as far as salary space to add a player?

Teague opts our or is traded in a deal that no salary comes back. I think either of those things are certainly possible. Likely? Maybe not but I think there is a pretty good chance that if they wanted to move Teague someone would take him for nothing.

Patton's money is off the books. It's not a significant amount as you have a charge for each roster spot up to either 13 or 14 but it's still a bit of money.

Whether Towns meets the criteria for a larger contract and how much more money is it? If somehow he gets edged out for the all NBA team that would give the Wolves some more money and we at least have some clarity there.

The bottom line is that if all the best stuff happens the Wolves would have based on my spreadsheet around 20 million in cap space to spend on a free agent and then they also could use some exceptions to add other players. That includes Tyus 7 million cap hold and there is some variance because we don't know what draft pick we will have. What could around 20 million get you? There will be a lot of money out there but there are also some interesting players at different price points and part of their careers that will be FAs...or maybe in trades.

I get why FA isn't enticing and the best case scenario of having money available is adittingly a bit rosy but I also think I can see the thinking of being patient waiting for the best deal possible Butler deal makes some sense also. Of course if push comes to shove for various reasons a deal could get accepted that's no better than the reported deals we have heard about.

That's a long, highly uncertain road to cap space. The only teams that could take Teague in a trade without giving us matching salary in return would be the few way under the cap and not interested in saving that space for anyone else. I think that is super highly unlikely. I think it's just as unlikely he opts out and gives up a sure $19 million for some longer term deal that might get him that amount over a period of years. And even if we can shed his salary completely, we'd still be $7 million over the cap with cap holds. So to get meaningful cap room, we'd have to renounce all of our cap holds on Tyus, Gibson, Tolliver, Rose, etc. That would leave us something close to the space you're contemplating, but we'd have at least 9 roster spots to fill. I'll add that this is MN and we'd be a very uncertain bet for top free agents next summer even if we were in an ideal climate/market given our personnel, management and ownership situations. Free agency simply isn't an answer for a mid-market franchise like ours, especially one that doesn't have the success and reputation of an organization like the Spurs. I find letting Butler walk as a FA a totally unacceptable result.

I'm not suggesting we are going after the top names. The funny thing is right now...the cap hold for Rose is something I didn't think about...but it doesn't matter. Its basically the same amount as the vet minimum. Thibs is a genius. =) If Rose was still on the team or planned to resign...that might be enough for Teague to look elsewhere.

the reality is...The Wolves should be looking for more than what people think they should be settling for. Look what the Clippers got for Blake Griffin. They got 3 useful players and draft compensation. Blake had injury history some other problems and locked into a massive contract similar to what you would be giving Butler if he came here. Griffin isn't much younger than Butler and Butler is a better 2 way player and likely better all around player PLUS he is a wing which adds even more to his value. Will the Wolves get that kind of haul? No but they should be getting more than a young promising player plus a draft pick while taking on bad salary. I'm back to thinking Thibs isn't as opposed to trading Butler as its being made out to be he is asking for a high price which isn't as insane as people want to make it out to be. NOBODY thought the Rockets were gonna offer 4 first round picks. Like Jon K said on the miami podcast...Thibs isn't going to be the first guy to blink in this situation. Thibs stubbornness and adherence to principals is maddening but there could end up being some benefits eventually.