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Warming on Lamelo

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:08 am
by mrhockey89
I apologize if someone else discussed this podcast already, and if you haven't heard it there's a lot of good discussion. I was listening to the Lowe Post podcast today while taking a walk with Mike Schmitz and Jonathan Givony where they were talking about the draft. In the end I decided to take another look at Ball to try to make a fresh perspective, and though I'm still not at all convinced on him I definitely see the intrigue and do see the upside.

Some tidbits:
- I believe it was Givony who said he's confirmed that the Wolves have received plenty of interest in the #1 pick, and mostly for Ball. He said it was more compensation than you would expect in a draft class that is categorized as weak.
-Though he's got a poor 3pt shooting %, they suggested that had a lot to do with the fact that tries to shoot from deep deep too often and that he sometimes wants to play like Trey Young and/or Steph Curry when it comes to shooting.
-He is an excellent rebounder for his position, which makes sense since he's like 6'8"
-Speaking of his height, they suggested that while he's not a good defender at this point, teams won't be able to pick n' roll him like they would a Trey Young to get a size mismatch, so he wouldn't be a liability in that aspect.
-His playmaking is off the charts as we all know from a passing standpoint (and when you watch him, his passing does remind you of a young Ricky Rubio)
-They suggested that while Lonzo lacks confidence at times, LaMelo is supremely confident at all times.
-If I recall, they questioned Ball (could have been Edwards, but I think Ball) always having been in poor basketball team situations that this would give pause as to whether he is a guy who could right the ship if things went south. With that said, they also suggested that this would make him a better candidate for a team like Minnesota who has other stars vs a team like Charlotte where he would be the guy who would have to put them on his shoulders.

A couple more notes:
-Anthony Edwards explosion numbers were through the roof (most explosive/powerful jumper that was ever tested...at whatever the testing site was).
-Anthony Edwards has undeniable talent that few have when he's engaged, but he's often not engaged and there are few players who have that type of effort profile and find it at the NBA level, it's either something you have or don't have. They suggested that in even in interview sessions he can be super engaged and interesting/funny, while others he is mentally absent. Schmitz likes Edwards, while Givony thinks he's talented but doesn't think he'll match his ceiling. Apparently one NBA personnel basically called him Dion Waiters.
-They also stated that next year's draft is super stacked (we knew that) and has about 7-8 guys who could legitimately be in the running for the #1 pick and could be stars. Said the Wolves are definitely looking to win now so they don't give up the valuable pick but if they're going to be bad, they better be real bad (due to the top 4 protection on our pick next year going to the Warriors).

Afterward, I watched a number of videos (high school breakdowns, Australian league, interview, etc) and here are my takeaways:
-Until the last couple years, he was a shoot-first player who could pass. He's shifted into a pass first player who is also very willing to shoot.
-It's very difficult to find tape of his defense, but the HS breakdown I saw showed how he went from literally zero effort (often not even making it past halfcourt) on defense to being engaged at times and improving quite a bit, though he still needs more effort (on ball) and still needs to learn to play defense with his feet more and less reliance on his hands.
-His passing will get our 3 point shooters open, and will get freebie layups for our inside guys.
-His shooting (specifically outside shooting) form still needs work. He doesn't get a ton of elevation (which may be fine due to his size) and loves the step back 3 but his form turns it into a fadeaway. He needs someone to work with him on this to get out of bad habits.
-His turnover rate is improving
-He has done a lot of improvement over the last 3 years.
-His FT% is in the low 70%. Not great, but not terrible for his age either. Given that he actually does have NBA range on his shot, it makes me believe that there's a real shot he becomes an average NBA shooter in time, which would make him super dangerous offensively.

I still want Wiseman #1, but if we do go Ball, I'll be alright, and I believe he will make KAT even more dangerous than he already is, much the way Rubio did. I expect Ball to become a more dangerous offensive player than both Rubio and Simmons, but never be as good as either defensively. The #1 translatable advanced stat to winning in the NBA is offensive efficiency, with #2 being defensive efficiency. Can he improve in these categories enough to help the Wolves become a winner? Not sure, but I guess at least if we do take him we'll have an entertaining team again.

Re: Warming on Lamelo

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:16 pm
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
This was a fair analysis, mrhockey. I agree with some of your points and disagree with others. Personally, I don't think LaMelo Ball will be a productive NBA player and I'd stay away from him if I was a head executive, but that's just my take.

Re: Warming on Lamelo

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:10 pm
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
If Ball really was projected to be a star, I could see taking him. But I see his ceiling as a top-12 PG with elite passing skills, decent scorer but not a #1 or 2 option, above average rebounder for his position, and passable defender. Again, that's his ceiling. Good, but not top tier.

So in the absence of having star potential, I start looking at team fit. And......he's not a good fit. We already have a starting PG and we already have some pretty damn good passers on the team. We need defense, outside shooting, and wings that do one or both of those things well.

Re: Warming on Lamelo

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:48 pm
by KG4Ever
LaMelo is a huge question mark. He could bust or become a perennial all-star. I'd rather go Killian Hayes or Haliburton at point guard. I like Wiseman and Deni better too. He isn't my favorite option, but there are plenty of worse options discussed in the top ten like Edwards, Okoro, Williams and Topin.

Re: Warming on Lamelo

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:55 pm
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
KG4Ever wrote:LaMelo is a huge question mark. He could bust or become a perennial all-star. I'd rather go Killian Hayes or Haliburton at point guard. I like Wiseman and Deni better too. He isn't my favorite option, but there are plenty of worse options discussed in the top ten like Edwards, Okoro, Williams and Topin.


I struggle with the perennial all-star ceiling. I just don't see it.

Re: Warming on Lamelo

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:34 pm
by SameOldNudityDrew
Q12543 wrote:
KG4Ever wrote:LaMelo is a huge question mark. He could bust or become a perennial all-star. I'd rather go Killian Hayes or Haliburton at point guard. I like Wiseman and Deni better too. He isn't my favorite option, but there are plenty of worse options discussed in the top ten like Edwards, Okoro, Williams and Topin.


I struggle with the perennial all-star ceiling. I just don't see it.


If his shot improves significantly and he can sustain it, if his shot selection becomes much more disciplined, and if he actually starts to try on defense for more than a few possessions a game, I could potentially see it. His passing really is special and he's got great length for a PG, but those are some big "ifs."

Re: Warming on Lamelo

Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:37 pm
by KG4Ever
Q12543 wrote:
KG4Ever wrote:LaMelo is a huge question mark. He could bust or become a perennial all-star. I'd rather go Killian Hayes or Haliburton at point guard. I like Wiseman and Deni better too. He isn't my favorite option, but there are plenty of worse options discussed in the top ten like Edwards, Okoro, Williams and Topin.


I struggle with the perennial all-star ceiling. I just don't see it.


Well, I am not predicting it, but most of the star point guards in the league are 30 or over and if he puts it all together, I think its possible. The big ifs, of course, are his shooting and defense and I think he has the tools, if he wants to badly enough, to be a decent defender and if he can get over his shot selection issues, he might be an adequate shooter.

Re: Warming on Lamelo

Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:24 am
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
SameOldNudityDrew wrote:
Q12543 wrote:
KG4Ever wrote:LaMelo is a huge question mark. He could bust or become a perennial all-star. I'd rather go Killian Hayes or Haliburton at point guard. I like Wiseman and Deni better too. He isn't my favorite option, but there are plenty of worse options discussed in the top ten like Edwards, Okoro, Williams and Topin.


I struggle with the perennial all-star ceiling. I just don't see it.


If his shot improves significantly and he can sustain it, if his shot selection becomes much more disciplined, and if he actually starts to try on defense for more than a few possessions a game, I could potentially see it. His passing really is special and he's got great length for a PG, but those are some big "ifs."


Exactly. And can't we say that of a lot of players that come into the league? If those "ifs" came to fruition for any given top 30 pick, their ceiling would be "star" also. I believe a "ceiling" should be defined as something that doesn't require three or four things to come together for a player.

If Rubio developed a great outside shot, he really would have been a perennial all-star. If DLO was a more dangerous player at breaking down a defense off the dribble, he'd be a perennial all-star.

Those are just two examples of lotto picks whose ceilings were "star" and rightfully so. In Rubio's case, it wasn't impossible to envision one or two more things coming together for him. In DLO's case, he's even closer.

Ball is currently Rubio without the defense and worse shot selection, so he's starting in a much bigger hole than even Rubio did with his inconsistent shot. He was otherwise a complete player. That's a lot to overcome to become a star some day.

Re: Warming on Lamelo

Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:55 am
by Lipoli390
I agree with Q's analysis on LaMello. There are just too many "ifs." The Rubio comparison is a good one. LaMello appears to have Ricky's gifts as a passer and rebounder at his position. But that's where the similarities end. Ricky came to the NBA as a terrific defender, great teammate and intense competitor. Ball has none of these qualities.

My formula for identifying the best prospect in a draft is upside times probability of reaching upside. I would agree that Ball has a very high upside, but all those "ifs" mean he has a relatively small probability of reaching his full potential. I'm thinking Ricky Rubio without the defense, free-throw prowess or competitiveness. No thanks.

Re: Warming on Lamelo

Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2020 10:17 am
by Monster
Measurements are not everything but one reason Ball is considered such a good prospect is his length. I'd love to see the actual measurements of him and Haliburton and compare them physically. This draft has a number of PGs with varying levels of intrigue.