Minnesota Sports Forum

I've watched NBA basketball for a long time, and have always been interested in the difference between players who are entertaining and those who are effective. I wrote in another thread how much better Houston has been since they replaced the more entertaining but injured Jalen Green with the more effective Garrison Mathews. And now we have Memphis, a team that has won 6 out of 7 (with an average winning margin of 22 points per game!) since Tyus Jones replaced Ja Morant in the starting lineup. Ja Morant is one of my favorite players in the association to watch, and Tyus Jones is frankly...well, dull. But which one is more effective in bringing wins to Memphis? A very small sample size of course says Jones. And a glance at their comparative stats is also quite telling. Jones has a net rating on basketballreference of +12 compared to Ja at +3. And while Memphis is 1.9 points per 100 possessions better when Tyus is on the court compared to off, they are 11 points worse when Ja is on the court compared to off.

Tyus's game is dull, but he protects the ball better than almost any other PG (7.6 assists per 36 minutes against only 1.4 turnovers), and he consistently plays hard on defense. Flip Saunders hated turnovers, and would say they often resulted in a 4-point swing...the 2 points you didn't get and the 2 the other team did (since TOs so often result in fast break buckets). Tyus's refusal to turn the ball over explains a lot about Memphis's resurgence since Ja went down.

Which players do I enjoy watching more? Well, Ja and Jalen of course! They put butts in the seats (and after all, the NBA is a business) and both can make jaw-dropping plays that Jones and Mathews can only dream of making. But the jury is out as to which pair helps their team win more. I would argue that Mathews clearly helps the Rockets more than Green...I'm just not a big fan of Green's game. But the Memphis situation will be interesting to watch. Maybe Memphis is much better than we thought, and they will continue to dominate opponents after Ja comes back. But maybe we learn a little more about entertaining vs. effective after he (and Green) return.

I get the idea behind this, but Ja Morant is a much better player than Tyus Jones. I don't need to refer to net ratings and plus-minus stats for that one. This is where overthinking happens.

Camden wrote:I get the idea behind this, but Ja Morant is a much better player than Tyus Jones. I don't need to refer to net ratings and plus-minus stats for that one. This is where overthinking happens.

Yep.

End thread.

They should put Ja on the bench unit to up his plus minus.

Ha, I admit this is provocative and I expected this response! But I'm curious how others here explain the resurgence of Houston and Memphis after their two key players went down, because that's what we do here...we're a bunch of smart NBA minds who analyze why teams perform better or worse, and I'm sure everyone can agree that what has happened in Houston and Memphis the past ten days is interesting. We can default to "it's just coincidence, and there's nothing to see here". But that seems a little lazy to me. Why do you guys think Houston and Memphis have been so good recently?

Tyus Jones is underrated. I was happy with him as a backup PG, I think most or many here were just fine watching him leave.

Yes it is boring to protect the ball and make the easy or smart play. He's a very smart player who is in the right positions, makes the right plays and doesn't hurt the team.

I think the point is that not hurting your team is just as important as helping them. It's not flashy, not many highlight passes or dunks. Just gets the job done at an efficient level.

I think that Ja and some other flashy players can learn a thing or two from a guy like Jones. Maybe play a little more team basketball and take the easy pass more often, make the easy play. Play smart defense. etc....

You know who Tyus reminds me of, Terrell Brandon. Another player who didn't turn the ball over. Wasn't tall or athletic but simply effective.

Tyus Jones was a very good backup with the Wolves too, but just became a bit too rich for us to re-sign. I do agree that he is a PG in the purest sense. And may be his deference to others have helped engage the rest of the team more where the whole is > than the sum of the parts. Not sure why that would be considered so preposterous. There is no question Morant is the more talented player, but what was his impact on the rest of the team's performance?

It is amazing seeing how a team like Memphis can reel off a bunch of wins without Morant, yet if KAT or DLO stub their toe, we go into a freakin' tailspin. Pathetic.

FNG wrote:Ha, I admit this is provocative and I expected this response! But I'm curious how others here explain the resurgence of Houston and Memphis after their two key players went down, because that's what we do here...we're a bunch of smart NBA minds who analyze why teams perform better or worse, and I'm sure everyone can agree that what has happened in Houston and Memphis the past ten days is interesting. We can default to "it's just coincidence, and there's nothing to see here". But that seems a little lazy to me. Why do you guys think Houston and Memphis have been so good recently?

Are you really comparing Jalen Green to Ja Morant?

14.0 ppg / 3.1 reb / 2.3 ast / 2.7 TO / 38.2% fg / 27.8% 3fg / -5.8 bpm / -0.5 VORP / 8.1 PER
... to ...
24.1 ppg / 5.6 reb / 6.8 ast / 3.2 TO / 47.6% fg / 35.6% 3fg / +3.5 bpm / +0.9 VORP / 24.4 PER

Again... END THREAD.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

FNG wrote:Ha, I admit this is provocative and I expected this response! But I'm curious how others here explain the resurgence of Houston and Memphis after their two key players went down, because that's what we do here...we're a bunch of smart NBA minds who analyze why teams perform better or worse, and I'm sure everyone can agree that what has happened in Houston and Memphis the past ten days is interesting. We can default to "it's just coincidence, and there's nothing to see here". But that seems a little lazy to me. Why do you guys think Houston and Memphis have been so good recently?

Are you really comparing Jalen Green to Ja Morant?

14.0 ppg / 3.1 reb / 2.3 ast / 2.7 TO / 38.2% fg / 27.8% 3fg / -5.8 bpm / -0.5 VORP / 8.1 PER
... to ...
24.1 ppg / 5.6 reb / 6.8 ast / 3.2 TO / 47.6% fg / 35.6% 3fg / +3.5 bpm / +0.9 VORP / 24.4 PER

Again... END THREAD.

Abe, it seems like you're inferring that I suggested their two stat lines were similar, and I agree that would be absurd. But that wasn't at all the purpose of my thread, so sorry if I was unclear. Ja is a very productive player (albeit flawed in some ways), while I see Green as just flawed (although certainly with a big upside). The only way I compared the two is that they are both talented, flashy players and fan favorites, but for some reason their respective teams have both flourished since they each were sidelined. And I teed that up as a discussion topic looking for other reasons that Memphis and Houston are playing so well these past 10 days.

Now I admit I have a certain bias for players who always hustle, play effective defense, play unselfishly at all times, and protect that ball, and whose teams generally perform better when they're on the court compared to when they're off. Give me that kind of player over a one-way high-scoring player any day. (Of course, I'd rather have a high-scoring guy who also has all the other attributes too, because those guys win championships). And my bias is leading me toward a preliminary conclusion that I am asking others to refute.

And to Q's point, while Memphis is surging with their most exciting and high-scoring player on the bench, the Wolves become the Washington Generals when KAT or DLo go down. What's the difference?